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#4543911 ....legion? :'(

Posted Nahj on 24 November 2015 - 02:48 AM

View PostLloix, on 23 November 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Rogue gonna be imba as fuck come legion.
It doesn't matter the strength.

Rogue's are crying because on paper sub is going to be a combat rogue/warrior terms of simplicity. For most of the people playing sub still it's worthy of quitting the game over if even half of this design concept goes live, due to losing what they feel is one of the last unique specs left in the game to casualization.

You'd be whining too if your spec was losing 10+ abilities like step, prep, garrote, hemo, shiv, gouge, blind, slice, rupture (gets a replacement), smoke bomb (talent), recup and shroud. IDC about recup/shroud being purged self heal mechanics are dumb and most mop mechanics like shroud/gateway are stupid anyway.

Shadowstrike, dance being passive and most of the rogue talents on the legion calculator all being passive is very anti fun. Judging from how MoP/WoD beta's went it's actually important to complain as early as possible seeing as next to nothing changed throughout the entire WoD beta where even though people were complaining it went through mostly unchanged.

Something doesn't have to be OP to have fun, people just want to have buttons to press instead of stupid passives. Even if the pvp talents/artifact talents gave us 3-4 buttons back instead of more passives left and right we'd still be losing twice as many abilities as we gained.

#4543275 ....legion? :'(

Posted Friedkitteh on 22 November 2015 - 08:33 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 22 November 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

based on what we have currently?

deep freeze removed
invisibility removed
talent trees where we will pick one talent 99% of the time in every single situation
ice block as a talent LOL
cone of cold made frost only - arcane's only snare is slow and fire has no snares
blazing speed merged with cauterize, shares a tier with ice block so not like its a choice anyway hehe

do you want more or will that do for now?

1. It's in the db? http://beta.wowdb.co...572-deep-freeze
2. Not that huge
3. I don't believe this will be the case for Frost (only looked on Frost)
4. So what? It might not be the best choice every game
5. Frost Spell for Frost, Arcane Spell for Arcane - Don't see the issue
6. Mage mobility was fucking broken with Blink+Blazing anyways - Good.

Give me all you got :)

#4543269 ....legion? :'(

Posted washboardabsx on 22 November 2015 - 08:23 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 22 November 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

based on what we have currently?

deep freeze removed
invisibility removed
talent trees where we will pick one talent 99% of the time in every single situation
ice block as a talent LOL
cone of cold made frost only - arcane's only snare is slow and fire has no snares
blazing speed merged with cauterize, shares a tier with ice block so not like its a choice anyway hehe

do you want more or will that do for now?

Wow mages might actually be glass cannons instead of Gods. What terrible ideas blizz.

#4542570 TBH Sub isn't even the best spec

Posted Randomguy on 21 November 2015 - 02:17 PM

View PostCsedition, on 21 November 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Sin is best for 2's, by FAR.

can we please not call assassination "sin" - it sounds incredibly dumb
just call it assa
we dont call subtlety "tlety" either do we?

#4540158 Scripted PvP

Posted Bigmoran on 17 November 2015 - 02:20 AM

I was originally going to post this article on Skill-capped. After some deliberation, I decided it would be better suited for AJ. I needed something meaningful for my 1000th post on this website. Even if you don't read this entire post, try and think about what you REALLY value in PvP. Consider what makes you happy and what makes you feel rewarded. The future of WoW PvP rests in the ability not to create balance, but instead to make the game into a rewarding and enjoyable experience.

I've mentioned countless times in threads and on social media that WoD PvP feels scripted. My attitude is not uncommon. Plenty of other players have also expressed feelings of redundancy in gameplay. Overall, enjoyment of PvP seems to be at an all time low. While quantification of player satisfaction is often difficult to guage, the drop in sub numbers--down to a point in which Blizzard will no longer report them--suggests that less and less people are enjoying World of Warcraft. The goal of this article is to show how the scripted feeling of PvP and the lack of rewarding gameplay has contributed to the growing sentiment that PvP is not nearly as fun as it used to be.

What IS the Script?

I should first explain what I mean by 'scripted.' In order to do this, consider how a script works. A script is a series of relationships between conditional statements. A conditional statement is a simple if, then relationship. Here is an example of how this 'scripted' PvP paradigm might play out in an arena match:

-If the enemy Mage uses Polymorph, then I will use Counterspell
-If the enemy Mage is Counterspelled on Polymorph, then I will use Polymorph.

While this may not seem damaging at first, consider the fact that nearly all of the important decisions we make during an arena game revolve around this algorithmic way of thinking. For every enemy action, there is an optimal player reaction that is determined by the 'script' of PvP. For every matchup, there is one optimal strategy. This makes winning feel significantly less rewarding and meaningful. The script makes arena wins feel less like an experience full of ingenuity and creativity and more like persistent, monotonous labor. If you know exactly how a game will play out, your experience will ultimately suffer.

As an aside, there is one thing that we often shake our fists at in PvP. Although we tend to hate RNG, it is the only thing that interferes with the normal operations of the script. Consider an arena game where two teams perfectly matched. They have exactly the same gear, play on the same latency, and have the exact same strategy. Assume that either team will try its absolute best to score a kill while preventing deaths of its own teammates. Under these conditions, what would determine the outcome of the match? It would have to be RNG! If one team gets a series of critical strikes or multistrikes at the right time, it will allow the match to deviate from its harmonious scripted balance. I should add that RNG (and specifically critical strikes) actually contribute to our enjoyment of the game. Oftentimes players will suggest removing crits from the game. Doing so would be damaging to our enjoyment of gameplay. While it may seem meaningless, scoring critical strikes is one of the most intrinsically satisfying elements of gameplay. We love seeing the big numbers. We are enamored by our own ability to deal damage that lights up as slightly bigger font on our screen. I am not kidding. Big numbers feel better, and in a game we are wanting to feel good.

Holinka's Pacing Argument

Recently, PvP developer Brian Holinka posted on Twitter that the average length of games during the World Championships was five and a half minutes. Loosely veiled behind this metric is the idea that PvP is improving because the duration of tournament games is getting shorter. It is true that spectators want shorter games. During Cataclysm and especially during Mists of Pandaria, many players argued that tournament matches were exhausting to watch. It was quite common in MoP to see two wizard cleaves battle it out for 10-15 minutes in a series that could potentially last five games. All in all this provided for a very boring viewer experience.
The problem with this argument is that the pacing does not matter if the match itself is painfully predictable. If you carefully watch the final series between SK-Gaming and Skill-Capped, you can see just how repetitive the game is during its 5.5 minute average duration. Every 30 seconds, Skill-Capped's RMD does the following things:

-Uses either Bash or Cheapshot on SK's Warrior
-Cyclones SK's Warrior
-Kidney Shots SK's Shaman (the kill target)
-Deep Freezes SK's Druid
-Polymorphs SK's Druid

While there is some degree of variance to how this setup is executed, the fact remains that every 30 seconds the RMD is doing exactly the same thing. So in a five minute game, you can expect the same exact thing to happen over and over and over until SK-Gaming makes a mistake or Skill-Capped falls to the attrition of dampening. And by all means, I'm not blaming either team for playing the way they do. For the most part there is no flexibility with either team's strat. I had the opportunity to talk to Healingstat (Skill-Capped's Druid) and I asked him why they never tried to kill SK's Warrior despite him sitting in Battle Stance for the majority of the game, sometimes without a PvP trinket. His reply was that they had played thousands of games against each other and that the 30-second setup strat on the Shaman is the only strat the consistently works. In other words, deviating from the script of going Shaman is utterly futile. There is no point in playing creatively because it does not win games. (I should add that I also heard that Boetar raged at Joefernandes for intervening a Blind because he "didn't know what to trinket." If there is anything that grossly reinforces the script, this is certainly it.)

Bring Back Reward

Of all the things that threaten WoW's ability to remain the most successful MMO of all time, its the fact that the game itself feels unrewarding. While I feel like the script has definitely contributed to this, there are numerous other examples in which gameplay itself does not feel like a rewarding experience. One instance of this is the conversion of many abilities into passive perks and set bonuses. Nature's Grasp was removed from the game and instead turned into a set bonus connected with use of Barkskin and Ironbark. Cold Blood was also pruned and converted into the four piece set bonus for Assassination Rogues. The real damage of pruning is that it left many of its removed abilities into mechanics attached to other spells. Two abilities became one. Two globals became one. Passives are not fun in virtue of being passive. You do not actually perform them--they just happen. Mages don't look at their Flameglow reducing damage and say, "Man, this is awesome!"

Another gross example of unrewarding gameplay is the conversion of many hardcasted damaging spells into instant cast burst abilities. Ice Nova is an ability that not only removes 50% of your root control, but also tunnel visions gameplay into managing two charges of a boring spell. Casted spells always feel better than instant casts. Hard casting involves risk and should result in high payoff. While I do think the class has some deep seeded balance and design problems, Destruction Warlocks are a perfect example of well-balanced risk/reward. Chaos Bolt is a long cast time that deals large damage. When it successfully lands, the Warlock feels like they have done something that required diligent effort. Compare this with the feeling of using two Ice Novas. There is little to no risk (outside of breaking CC). The ability is pressed and the damage is dealt. End of story.

The Hybrid Problem

While this has been an important point of discussion for ages, something needs to be done to address the strength and role of hybrid DPS in matchups. Hybrid healing was gutted for Balance Druids, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shamans but still remains a problem for Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans, and Retribution Paladins (perhaps WW Monks to an extend as well). These physical DPS classes are able to provide instant cast heals to themselves and their partners and are able to maintain high damage AND healing throughput over the course of a 3v3 match. There is no good reason that an Enhancement Shaman should be able to do 20k DPS in a game while also doing 10k HPS.

Some Nostalgia

Although he is one of the most controversial posters on this site, Bilian's PvP video continues to be one of my favorite PvP videos of all time. The RMP clips remind me of a time where gameplay was creative and each player made unique contributions to scoring kills.

#4539030 Legion Warlock Preview

Posted OzCymru on 14 November 2015 - 01:57 AM

Dark Soul removed:


#4538949 Seperate title percentages between Horde and Alliance in Legion

Posted Nicholaes92 on 13 November 2015 - 10:52 PM

And cross faction que would not help at all.  Because if human racial is still op people will stay human and that would give them no reason to go horde.  What is with you people and this mindset of bringing everyone into the same area.  Fuck shit like this makes phasing and no more battle groups which I think is fuckin stupid.  Everyone being ally is hurting this game more than you guys probably realize.  

People aren't going to instantly think "oh man cross faction arenas that's cool! I'm going to go undead now so I can still play with my friends!"  Oh wait well what if you want to raid?  Well do you want cross faction raids too?  Well horde side will still be dead so let's make cross faction raids too.  Well while we are at it lets just make cross faction auction houses too, might as well.  Well I mean then again you can't quest with everyone either so let's just all quest together too fuck it.

Stop with the consolidation.  Fuck cross faction ideas, fuck mercenary mode, fuck phasing, fuck no more battle groups, and fuck you for thinking that this idea is smart.

#4538166 Legion Rogue Preview

Posted prokillur on 12 November 2015 - 01:37 PM

neilyo is rolling in his grave

#4538496 Seperate title percentages between Horde and Alliance in Legion

Posted Nicholaes92 on 12 November 2015 - 10:58 PM

Refren I don't know what the fuck you are talking about man.  This is seriously a pretty good idea to balance out horde and ally.  Let's just say there were no racials at all and perfectly balanced.  Ok now that they fixed that 90% of players are still ally so why would they want to pay to switch and have no team?  This is probably the best solution to guarantee faction balance permently as far as pvp goes.  

Quit fucking crying

#4538490 Seperate title percentages between Horde and Alliance in Legion

Posted Forumz on 12 November 2015 - 10:34 PM

This is literally what a lot of players suggested they do to fix the faction imbalances, now they do it and in comes the QQ.

#4538493 Legion Rogue Preview

Posted Randomguy on 12 November 2015 - 10:55 PM

copypasta from mmoc thread http://www.mmo-champ...ut-rogue-design

Sub's dps cd will be shadow blades

All specs could have ranged dmg assassination and outlaw for sure

Outlaw gets a ranged stun

"Will Assassination and Subtlety AoE be made equivalently powerful with Outlaw/Blade Flurry?"
"Yes, we plan to make all Rogue specs competitive in AoE situations."

"What kind of debuff is nightblade? Magic? Physical?"
"Nightblade will be Shadow damage. Whether it's dispellable or not will depend on PvP balance, but we recognize its importance"

"The blog focused on rotational abilities. Vendetta, Adrenaline Rush, and Shadow Blades are burst CDs for each spec, respectively"

"Assassination does have an ability that throws a poisoned dagger, applying your poison at range. It's just not in the blog."

"Is pistol a new item in itself that can be equipped for Outlaw Rogues?"
"Pistols are not a new weapon type. Outlaws just always have a concealed Pistol (similar to Shurikens for Subtlety). "

"pistol shot'll let me damage & gain combo points from range. Awesome! Will there be a ranged finisher? "
"Yes! Instead of Kidney Shot, Outlaws have a pistol-based finisher which deals damage and stuns from range."


"Anticipation remains a talent. However, it has some serious competition on its talent row now."

"Shadowstrike will not teleport you if you are already in melee range."

"With the new Shadow Dance design, Find Weakness no longer makes sense, so it has been removed."

"Why is it called Shadowstrike and not Ghostly Strike?"
"Because Ghostly Strike is a talent for Outlaws! Posted Image"

"Is Hemorrhage still a thing for Sub Rogues?"
"We may keep it in some form, possibly as a talent."

"Would it be possible to add the 5 combo point duration to DoT finishers on the blog?"
"Nightblade is up to 24 seconds. Envenom is up to 6 seconds. Rupture is 24 seconds."

"There's still a lot of tuning to be done. Venomous Wounds will be tuned so that pooling is still important."


"So are a lot of talents being added to classes and such? I hope they're significant."
"Indeed - there are TONS of new talents! "


"Roughly how many talent rows will we have access to in Legion, if I may ask? Posted Image"
"7 rows, plus PvP talents. Also, the game has far more total talents due to having many more spec-specific options! "


#4537404 Legion Warlock Preview

Posted Chanimal on 10 November 2015 - 05:40 PM

as long as soulburn haunt is gone

#4536651 Blog: WoD PvP Flaws

Posted Mageic on 09 November 2015 - 03:07 PM

I agree, I think classes in recent years have been designed specifically for consuming raid content. That's where it starts while PvP utility and other considerations are done afterwords. That's not to say there aren't passionate people at blizzard working hard on PvP, but those people are primarily working on new systems (honor, pvp talents), and new content like bgs, arenas, ashran rather than class design.

That's a serious contrast there compared to the previous expansions where, it seems like the classes were built to be thrown into an MMO rather than a raid. This is very noticeable when you consider drawbacks to spells which are significantly different in a raiding environment compared to the open world and PvP. There's a quote somewhere saying that the original windfury totem was designed with the drawback of having a 5 hp totem, but when you put that in a raid environment it doesn't apply. This kind of logic applies to anything, so when you see changes first look at them based on their context in a raid and it won't seem so misguided as it does when you look at it from the pvp side of things.

#4533180 WoW's 3rd quarter only down 100k from 2nd

Posted Beer on 03 November 2015 - 01:31 PM

I was surprised too, that it's not a higher number but tbh most people stop because PVE is getting boring/has other issues like being stuck because of 20m mythic raids (it really sucks if you were a 10m guild before WoD) and we are probably way past this point already.

Tanaan and flying (which seems to be super hyped and important for a lot of people) took too long to come out and then didn't last long enough and people who wanted to do other things than just sit in their garrisons probably left a few months ago.

As for PVPers, i don't know how many stopped during the last quarter but i guess it does carry no weight on the numbers in total.

So i guess it's not that surprising after all.

#4532184 blizzcon championship thread

Posted Zimo on 01 November 2015 - 01:20 AM

actually this rbg thing is fun to watch, reminds me of league map rotation- kinda plays and is a lot more spectator friendly then arenas - could be a thing maybe