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#4425415 Has WoW PvP ever been balanced?

Posted Seu on 17 May 2015 - 01:12 AM

for me a "balanced" state in a game is that there is a reasonable way for me/my team to win every game if we play well

i think the more the stars have to align in order for you to beat a team, the less balanced the game is... especially once you start just surviving and praying for them to make mistakes.

so i guess s7/s8 i felt more than any other season there was a reasonable way to win almost every matchup as most comps, especially because the skill ceiling was higher and there was more you could do.

#4425532 If Ghostcrawler came back as developer, would this game be better?

Posted Syia on 17 May 2015 - 09:37 AM

There are so many levels to what went wrong it would be impossible to blame one person. It would be impossible for one person to fix it too. Ghostcrawler was a part of pushing the game towards greater homogenization, lowering the price of entry to gated content, and creating hard-mode vs casual-mode content.

At a glance, all of these things were initially pretty well received as evidenced by subscriber counts. Many of the traditional RPG mechanics in Vanilla/Burning Crusade sucked. Some classes were legitimately low standing citizens (not just specializations) and a lot of content wasn't being consumed by the majority of level-capped players (not even considering the people who weren't level capped). Arenas were receiving a lot of love for being new and running through the MLG circuit.

However, these concepts that were initially good for the game got pushed too far. Content is too cyclical now. Casual versions of raids reduce the perceived value of "hardcore raiders". In Vanilla/TBC there was constant need to run older raids and scaling was tight enough that people a tier behind didn't feel like they were in a different stratosphere. Classes have become too homogenized; their once defining characteristics feel so bland now. What is wrong with having flavor abilities to put on your hot bar? Nothing.

World of Warcraft got tipped too far in favor of streamlining content and classes, while reducing the need for its social systems. A lot of what has changed in World of Warcraft over the years come from designers acquiescing to the desires of vocal players (not us, but the casual majority). Most of the time, what people think they want, is not what's good for the game.

Blizzard needed to put their foot down and maintain the foundations of what made their game so good. But the profit model worked so well, there's no way you would convince the company to stray away from the status quo. A game of this scale really needs an authoritarian to make design decisions for the sake of the game, not the company's bottom line.

Edit: I'm sure there are tons of qualified people working at Blizzard. I'm also sure there are people already working/have worked there that are capable of making good design decisions. Making meaningful decisions requires too much clout. E.g. A PvP designer is never going to triumph over PvE rules, but PvE designers can never completely ignore PvP either. It's a mess and needs strong leadership to go anywhere.

#4425427 If Ghostcrawler came back as developer, would this game be better?

Posted Thaya on 17 May 2015 - 02:11 AM

View PostNaraga, on 16 May 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:


He rode the wave of goodness that was created by Kalgan and was the first one to slowly ruin the game. Don't ever forget he is the one that gave dispel to every healer and removed it from sp/ret, handed out self heals like cookies and started the road towards complete homogenization we are on right now.
this is factually wrong

most people refer to WotLK as the best expansion

WotLK is also the expansion that had the best sub numbers/statistics

Ghostcrawler was the lead systems designer for that expansion

wave of goodness created by Kalgan and Tigole was shit like mace stun and a meta that implied that each class will have only 1 viable arena spec (never actually happened and several classes were more or less unplayable in arena), pvp trinket that removed only 3 types of effects (until later in tbc), only 2 classes with 50% mortal strike debuffs (making them mandatory to have for a viable comp, outside of vipersting/manadrain "run you dry" setups that people figured out way later), 2v2s that lasted 4+ hours being an accepted part of the game, and various other amazing perks. i mean, PvE (both solo and raid stuff) had just as many examples of utterly terrible design

people really forget how actually SHIT vanilla and TBC were gameplay-wise. don't get me wrong, my best times in this game were mostly in TBC, but that doesn't mean the designs were actually good. it was a different time. this doesn't mean that Kalgan or Tigole are bad game designers either - someone had to do the mistakes to learn from.

also you have to understand what 'lead systems design' actually implies. for example, wow has pretty decent core gameplay, what sucks are mostly the systems - e.g. 4 difficulties of the exact same instance being a pretty fucking shit idea. or there being no team charters, which in turn allows you to just log on whatever class/alt you have and just instantly queue your fotm setup at no penalty whatsoever, which results in everybody just playing fotm shit exclusively. or s10 having good gameplay but being completely ruined by the matchmaking/ladder system around it - this is a legit mistake you could credit to GC. but he did design a lot of good shit too.

its kind of idiotic to praise WotLK as the best thing ever and then go hate on the dude that was heavily involved in making it what it was. he's also the only dev to interact this closely with the community, and he's the REASON there's so many blue posts daily and devs just casually talking to us on twitter - he's the one who set this example. it must suck to give so much to a community only to receive a hate bandwagon in response. no wonder he left.

#4425331 If Ghostcrawler came back as developer, would this game be better?

Posted Naraga on 16 May 2015 - 08:20 PM


He rode the wave of goodness that was created by Kalgan and was the first one to slowly ruin the game. Don't ever forget he is the one that gave dispel to every healer and removed it from sp/ret, handed out self heals like cookies and started the road towards complete homogenization we are on right now.

#4425046 Has WoW PvP ever been balanced?

Posted Odrareg on 16 May 2015 - 03:42 AM

S7 was probably balanced. S8 was less balanced but far more fun. Please let's not forget that everyone raged at double shadowmourne TSG, bauble of true blood was retarded, together with taunka/vrykul trinket tmorph... oh, I also laughed when my sacred cleansing procced.

It was just more fun though really. Regardless of the damage/healing ratio, bursty healing/bursty dmg stuff, the key point was that there was a difference between players. Even the simple fact that you had many more spells back then would provide far more entertainment..together with all the mechanics that were removed.

Hunters with min range for example added quite some skillcap, plus the fact that you had wing clip / raptor strike / mongoose bite was kind of "fun". As a warrior you had to stance dance so that was really really fun as well. As a holy paladin (this was a thing even in cata etc) you could decide whether to use wings and divine favor or just one of them, thus letting a good paladin save wings for later instead of having +3284923% healing when using them, like today.

I still love the game and love playing arenas with all myself really, I don't want to quit and I'm having a lot of fun. Inb4 "yes holy paladin ofc u like it"...that's not the point, I've always played this class and spec since 2007 as my main and still deeply love it.

However, some of the fun does go away when they think that the whole point of holy paladins being strong is fucking freedom glyph, instead of RETARDED healing during cds and close to nothing without wings...

You know, it's just so fucking sad when now you have to do MANDATORY things that EVERYONE can do. For example against a hunter, as a pala, you pretty much "HAVE" to BoP crows  (unless ofc the situation just reaaally is safe).  Today evening I tried not to follow this "simple rule", ending up on falling behind on healing because I tried to heal and save BoP; trying to outsmart the situation is not rewarding. You don't even have the tools to do so.

Paladins have this fucking shit mechanic of "Saved by the light". It's HORRIBLE, but it's damn needed! Take it away from a holy pala and watch them stuck on 2200.

When all of these "musts" didn't exist, and you had differentiation...you had a fun season. Not a balanced one, but a fun one.

Edit: I think the last time the game offered differentiation was S11 and Cataclysm, where atleast cleansing efficiency made some healers outstanding if compared to others. Everyone can do X and Y today instead, that's what's killing the game. Casuals can perform decently, and good players can't outperform too much less dedicated players; this hurts human nature sadly.

#4425016 BANNED

Posted Odrareg on 16 May 2015 - 02:16 AM

View PostGrieverZ, on 16 May 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

Someone had to take the place of that DK back in Wrath (forgot his name).

There must always be a retard.

Lopez? That guy was funny tbh

#4425049 BANNED

Posted Thaya on 16 May 2015 - 04:37 AM

i haven't read every single wall of text here because the sheer idiotism of some posts was emotionally painful to process, but i want to clear up some misconceptions that a lot of you seem to have:

1. game hackers vs game developers is a game of cat and mouse. there's an infinite amount of ways to detect an injection even just within the client, let alone with a tool like warden. the most important thing about warden isn't in its code - it's in the license agreement that comes with it, which makes literally every single form of cheat detectable in theory (and within law). it's very well possible that every single account that ran hb is flagged in some way, we just don't know about it because anti-cheat bypassing is purely reactive - a bypass is done only when accounts start to drop. there's a reason none of these programs claim to be 'completely safe', it's simply impossible. the reason there are online logins in the first place is to prevent people from running it on patch days or anti-cheat updates, the monetary element came in later. it's also the reason bans are done in waves. you'll understand exactly whats going on if you read up on how VAC/VAC2 works - just that blizzard isn't as active at banning flagged accounts as valve is.

2. hb banwaves happened literally ALL THE TIME throughout these years. you just don't know (or don't care) about them for two reasons: they were targeting the gold selling business, and these banwaves became more or less a normal part of running business. when someone who runs a gold farming joint loses 100 accounts or whatever, he simply buys 100 new accounts right away. that's basically the only cost of running said business anyway - the only other one is buying the hardware required to run so many bots, which is a one time investment. the shit is so profitable that losing 100 accounts is basically nothing, so nobody cares and blizzard gets easy money while doing damage control. this is all on the surface, you just have to lurk your forums more to know about this. i'm not some behind the scenes insider sharing secrets or anything.

3. cheating/hacking enthusiasts will always exist because reverse engineering/hacking things is just fun as fuck for us geeks, and various shady black market shit will exist as long as there is demand for them as well. these are a given. however, "normal" players using something like this and on such a scale is a completely different phenomenon, especially within a mmorpg. what makes it different compared to other online games is that the intent of aimbotting/maphacking/scripting/etc is clear - to win. in wow, most people botted for gold (for themselves), to level new chars, or to perform rotations for them (in pve, good ol' pqr). none of these are directly malicious or toxic, and if you've ever wondered why they let the whole hb thing run in the masses for so long, then this is your answer - it simply didn't do that much damage where it matters, however it was a wonderful opportunity for them to analyze and study the "problem areas" of their game. imagine you're a dev and a very significant part of your playerbase is literally ready to pay for a 3rd party tool to work around your shitty designs? yeah, quite fucking interesting isn't it.

diablo 3 is an example of a game that learned from the way people cheated in it, and as a result we have an "action RPG" game with LITERALLY zero player to player trading possible - something most of the community wouldn't even believe in at all a few years ago, considering that d2jsp was basically a core element of what diablo 2 online was in its prime (let alone the maphacking). people cheered when the D3 AH was announced, remember? "its d2jsp in-game, this is fucking great!" what a disaster did that shit turn out to be. yet, this new tradeless approach actually improved the game (and the genre) tenfold, as well as basically eliminated botting cuz why the fuck would anyone bot. some posts here already implied that 'the game oddly feels more fun now' - it's for a reason. you guys realize they revamped the entire way gold is earned (you basically never benefit from straight up farming anymore, its just garrison mat shuffling and professions) and revamped the entire leveling heirloom system, right? they didn't do it for you to keep fucking botting, you know. the devs want you to experience their game.

4. whats happening now is simply their way of saying "we feel like you should stop using 3rd party tools as we've worked hard on the core problems". in fact, they have said exactly this a little while ago - what was it, like, 2 months since there was a GIGANTIC blue post about botting and cheating? it was literally a 6-7 paragraph wall of text, and we even had a thread about it here on AJ. if that's not a decent verbal warning and a HUGE FUCKING HINT, then what is? honestly, it's funny how i skimmed thru most of this thread and haven't seen a mention of that blue post. people obviously refused to understand words, so devs had to take action. the only way for them to scare the average "normal player hb user" away from hb is to give hb a reputation of something that can realistically get you permabanned - and this is exactly what they did. people will now think twice about it - did you see all those "wts hb lifetime license" threads on trade forums? they're selling them for 1/10th of the price, its funny as fuck. all of you who are banned are just collateral damage and you all have been verbally warned forefront, that's what makes it so hilarious to gloat at your misfortune.

the bans being 6 months rather than permanent is just blizzard being soft and kind enough to forgive your stupidity, it's really nothing to do with subscription numbers or money because 6 months time is at least 2 earning calls - they obviously don't mind your shit being banned going into their public stats. they just didn't want to permaban actual players' mains, but make hb really scary to use at the same time. words and 72h bans apparently didn't work (72h's were fairly common if you check forums), so here we are... 6 months is a long time, but isn't forever. also, it wouldn't surprise me if every single banned account had hb used on it at least once AFTER that blue post, and those who dodged the banwave are people who just didn't bot in several months. from what i know from the people i talked to about this, it seems to be precisely the case. so, if you bumped into that big blue post (it was even mmo-c frontpage in a separate newspost) but consciously decided to ignore it, then you really have only yourself to blame.

5. pvp is the last thing they care about, but they do care about it still. cheaters (that used it in arena) being directly hit by this is obviously good, but this might have some more positive side effects like there being less fotm shit, just because you can't grow fotm shit while afk anymore (newsflash: you were never supposed to be able to). perhaps they will rethink the mistakes they did in random battleground design that eventually made them android wars. speaking of random battlegrounds, i've seen several people on trade chat being all like "bgs are 10 times more fun now" - that's interest to pvp right there. pvp is obviously not that high of a priority in their dev process, but you might see an improvement here because the entry-level pvp isn't completely fucking broken anymore.

6. not everyone that smoked weed has done meth, but everyone that done meth has smoked weed. can't believe how basic logic is so very tough to grasp for some of you

hope this helps

enjoy leveling with new heirlooms

or your new account lol

#4424200 BANNED

Posted Elorxo on 14 May 2015 - 06:43 PM

View PostROKMODE, on 14 May 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

challenge of the month for the interwebs
don't use toxic, retard, or mongoloid for at least 50 posts

impossible u toxic retarded mongoloid

#4424056 BANNED

Posted God on 14 May 2015 - 02:45 PM

This just in, AT is reporting massive increase in player-base.

#4423207 BANNED

Posted Snappi on 13 May 2015 - 08:49 PM

Why would you even bot in current game?
In wotlk leveling was pain in the ass, now you can just dedicate one night for it and youre done.
Lazy ass modern ppl i quess.

#4421911 was it worth it?

Posted stalebagel on 11 May 2015 - 12:46 PM

who are we kidding guys we wasted way too much time playing video games growing up

#4421452 is it class envy or class rivalry

Posted Nicholaes92 on 10 May 2015 - 03:05 PM

My dad hits me

#4421344 was it worth it?

Posted Knaittiz on 10 May 2015 - 08:23 AM


#4419847 Warlords Gladiator mounts

Posted Naraga on 07 May 2015 - 09:50 AM

View PostViolatrix, on 07 May 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

I don't get all the griping--why would people want a flying mount that cannot be used in current content?  I feel like an asshat if I use my flying mount in a no fly area.  It just screams, "Look at me! I need validation!"
Because it breaks with a continues line of lore?

Gladiators have been rewarded with dragons for 7 years in a row now. Whether or not they can actually fly with them is not the issue. It's extremely painful when you go from awesome mounts like the TBC drakes or the Wotlk drakes to basically receiving Gruul's little brother with down syndrome in WoD.

#4420180 WoW Sub loss.

Posted Abidalzim on 07 May 2015 - 07:49 PM

View PostPouncedd, on 07 May 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

If you sit here and try to argue the fact that No CD on poly is fine and balanced then you clearly are the retarded mongoloid.
It's fine, what's retarded are hunters without a deadzone. Aka, mophunters.

The main reason this game is shit and has been shit for a few expacs are dead realms. 0 sense of community. Cross realm is like LFR, a bunch of random nobodies you couldn't care less about that might as well be replaced with npcs.