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Offline Last Active Aug 22 2013 06:34 PM

#3901586 Updated Guide @ (How to Walk With the Wind) http://www.arenajunkies.co...

Posted hid on 18 June 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostMachmaplatz, on 18 June 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:


first of all thx for the guide !!

i checked your armory and got some questions
Is leg sweep > rop ?
diffuse magic < healing elixier ?

why you only got 4% expertise ?

what are some good 2v2 comps for WW monk and how to play against popular enemy comps would be nice :) I cant realy figure out myself becaus its hard to get m8ts and if you get someone to play with you and you screw up becaus you dunno what to do well ... **** has left the party :( :unsure:

RoP is pretty terrible since the nerf, Leg Sweep is better vs virtually any team. RoP might be better vs something silly like double dk, but that's pretty much how bad it is right now.

You take diffuse magic vs any comp with magical dmg, healing elixirs vs comps without burst but heavy physical pressure, mainly hunter teams. And you take dampen harm vs physical burst comps, like rogue+other melee(very rare, but there you go.)

What expertise you go for is a matter of taste, 3-6% being the most common, some go up to like 8% but personally I feel it's a huge waste to ever go above 6%, and even 6% has some drawbacks. (optimal thing is to pick up alternate items to allow you to have two different sets of low and high expertise gear so you can swap to the 3% set vs wizcleaves for example.)

monk+any healer is great in 2s, especially druid and priest, but anything works. Monk isn't a good class for 2dps comps in 2s, but can work decently with a feral or rogue. There's also a few other random comps, but nothing else is as good as ww+healer.

#3892445 Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance

Posted hid on 28 May 2013 - 05:46 AM

View Postamaixliu, on 28 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

that would be amazing

It also wouldn't be nearly enough to fix the class. While bandaids like this might be nice for a few weeks/months, I think the class needs WAY more thought out tweaks. Why go back to something we had 4+ years ago? Why not come up with something completely new, make the class actually feel less outdated? There are a lot of things about rogues atm that prevents us from getting big buffs. For example if rogues right now had feral mobility we'd be insanely broken, even with the pitiful damage we do outside of CDs.

I think blizzard just kind of backed themselves into a corner by making casters not have to cast (or move while casting) while at the same time not giving all melees ways to keep 90%+ dps uptime (some have this already, for example ferals, and to a slightly lesser degree ww monks.) Shadowpriests are an exception to this and is IMO fairly well designed (they also have their problems, but it's one of the few casters where positioning actually matters still.) This is a problem blizz has already acknowledged and they will probably work towards fixing this in the next expansion, but until then I believe a fairly big rework of the rogue class is needed.

List of fairly easy tweaks to make that in no way would make the class broken (assuming the evisc tweak is implemented properly):

1) Remove or make smoke bomb way less powerful (maybe just make it a defensive cd, where only heals and defensive spells (bop/ironbark/PS etc) can be targeted into it but not damaging spells. Up the DR to 40%ish) to start with.
2) Balance eviscerate around a higher crit chance (like ferocious bite, but with some rogue-ish mechanic) so that 2 crit evisc in a row doesn't almost instagib people.
2.1) but in return for the evisc tweak above; HEAVILY buff rogue sustained damage in some way, what way doesn't really matter as much.
3) Remove positional requirement on (back)stab/ambush, we aren't ferals that can effortlessly be in the back of people at all times (and hell, ferals still do close to full damage even from the front) - no need at all to keep this relic of a game mechanic in a game that is already so influenced by latency.
4) Remove the need for having rupture up on targets, sang vein on hemo is an easy fix. Will open up more dynamic play in regards to combo points spent on finishers.
5) Remove feint, bake a version of it into recuperate (which we will be able to use with the above fix to sang vein)
6) ShS baseline with 15-18 sec CD, breaks roots. (NOT on prep, we don't need more "readiness mashing in first 10 secs of a game"-stupidity - <rant>speaking of that, why the FUCK is rapid fire/all ccs still on readiness? </rant>)
7) Sprint 30-45 sec cd, doesn't breaks roots but makes you immune to roots and snares for 3-6 sec duration (adds some skill, you can use shs to break roots, but not sprint which you have to preempt - might be a slightly complicated/unintuitive skill, but I think it'd be fine)

I could go on and list a lot of other minor tweaks aswell but these are the big ones IMO. This is obviously only 1 of hundreds of viable ways to fix rogues, but this is how I'd like the class to be at least.

#3888601 Paralysis vs Silence

Posted hid on 18 May 2013 - 05:07 PM

"This healer isn't just dying to me every time I blanket/DF, I'm a mage, wtf is going on? BUFF MAGES NERF MONKS"

I'm sorry, but dude. Really.

#3884599 Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance

Posted hid on 06 May 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 06 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yes, but we will start getting buffs again once this issue is resolved. Until then there is zero chance on getting rogue buffs of any kind and It's better to remove this part of the ability that hinders rogue overall balance. Once rogues can be peeled easily during Subterfuge (it's not so hard now actually, as the rogue can be hit be AoE and targeted if close) the overall weakness will show.

We will be in a bad spot at the beginning of 5.3, but that will change pretty fast. Look at warlocks, they had portal and blood fear and that held them back for a long time. We need more controlled mobility and maintain a strong burst. We won't get it until the skill that everyone complains about is gone.

One of the main issues is that Death Grip hard counters rogue bursts. We need something to protect against the double Death Grip. So far that has been Subterfuge,Cloak and most of all C&D. With 2 of 3 options gone either double Grip needs to be removed or we need a cooldown that allows us to stay on the target after we use Shadowstep. Rogues have a small burst window and waiting for 3 seconds is too long.

I do agree, the only reason I've been saying that I don't want subterfuge/C&D nerfed is because I don't see them putting that much effort into actually giving us a proper fix right now (we got a pretty big overhaul in 5.2, and they don't seem to be in the mood to buff rogues, too much backlash from the community because it's the current in thing to complain about rogues) and I don't really want to spend another full season being useless until they fix it. Although, in the long run it is going to have to happen ofc.

There are countless ways to do it, but I personally like the idea of having a baseline ShS with 2 charges and a 15-18 sec CD to bring it in line with roll/charge (would solve the problem of us getting peeled too easily during the burst window but at a tradeoff of having to save up 2 charges and "wasting" both of them at the same time.) This alone is not enough to fix our mobility (although a great first step), some people have tossed around the idea of hit & run baseline, or shs baseline with hit&run as a talent. I think shs baseline is the cleanest fix because if it's the other way around _everyone_ will take shadowstep as the talent but with hit&run in its place it would be viable to get any of the talents at that tier (could readjust the CD/energy cost of the other talents if need be.)

#3884352 Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance

Posted hid on 05 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 05 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Wanted to bring the actual numbers (see spoiler), but I'm on a business trip currently and just typing this during the first coffee in my room. Missed something, maybe someone wants to have a look and correct it.

To start off, the crit multiplier is 2.06 (crit metagem doubledips), I also think you forgot to take the 20% sanguinary veins damage into account (it scales multiplicatively with master of subtlety etc, making the damage coeff 132% with MoS/sang, or 145.2% with MoS/sang/PotW.)

These are the things I could think of off the top of my head. I quickly redid your calculations with these numbers in mind, and unless my napkin math fails me, that puts the actual number at 97329 damage after armor/resil is accounted for. This is obviously before any other debuffs on the target are accounted for, like physical vulnerability, expose armor etc.

Edit: This obviously still feels a bit low compared to real world results, but at least it's in the ballpark. I guess blizz might've changed the AP coeff on evisc from 0.8? wowdb lists it at 0.992*AP for example, and wowhead lists it at 0.8, but at the bottom of the tooltip it says "Subtlety: 1.24", and 0.8 * 1.24 is 0.992 so something is going on there.

Edit2: Redoing the same calculations but with a 0.992 AP coeff gives a max evisc crit of 117926.8 (which seems very resonable to me considering that's vs maximum resilience, and with no double dps trinkets.)

Edit3: For "fun", that number drops to 103253.5 after the find weakness nerf on PTR. (Armor going from 12575 (21.4% DR) to 20958 (31.18% DR).)

#3876716 Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed

Posted hid on 17 April 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 17 April 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Posted Image

It's mind boggling that half the rogues in this thread legitimately think their class is fine. Subterfuge combined with CnD is absurd, dance/blades damage is kind of dumb but its not different then anyone else's one shot in terms of damage, the difference comes from the fact that no one else locks you down for 12 seconds while they're one shotting. Kidney->garrote alone is equivalent to Warbringer->shockwave->gag order. Mass concealment guaranteeing rmp/thug openers every game, 50% mind numbing, deadly throw interrupt, marked for death double 100k evicerates. The class is ridiculous right now. To be fair, damage outside of those cd's is low, but inbetween dances rogues do nothing but spam peel, then try and global someone again. So buff hemo/bleed damage, nerf control, increase the cd of dance to 90-120 seconds, remove mind numbing, make deadly throw interrupt require 5 cps, add a 10ish percent damage reduction to recuperate, reduce feint to 25% to balance it out.

A lot of things are broken in this game right now, hunters and rogues are just at the top of that list.

It's mind boggling that almost all the non-rogues in this thread that clearly have no idea about how the class works thinks everything is OP about rogues. It takes two talents to give us subterfuge+C&D, we give up damage(shadow focus) and shadowstep for it. Mind-numbing is 25%. eviscs crit about 25% of the time, and to get MfD we give up another lvl90 talent. There are tradeoffs, stop acting like we get a bunch of shit for free.

Yes, mind-numbing (and necrotic) could need a change, but also keep in mind that we give up paralytic poison for it, and without stuff to keep wizards in line there would be nothing but wizardcleaves at the top of every ladder. (this is no argument in itself to keep MN as it is, just saying.)

Let me say this again: C&D and subterfuge is NOT a problem, yes the talent combination is strong, but so is A LOT of shit from other classes, and is in itself no reason for a nerf. People just need to learn how to play against it (stop the damn restealths.)

#3876115 Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed

Posted hid on 16 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostHyuru, on 16 April 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

and tbh, I think most rogues agree that subterfuge is kind of stupid and should be removed from the game, but why on earth would we not abuse it when it's available to us?

I question your assessment that "most rogues" agree with you on this. I for one strongly disagree, and while I've played rogue since vanilla and managed just fine in 95% of cases to pull off proper openers without subterfuge, without that talent we're still the most inconsistent class.

Getting randomly knocked out of stealth can put you way behind before the game even begins. Keep in mind that every class has gotten access to more and better(bigger radius/passive) aoe abilities to knock people out. In the current game just removing subterfuge without giving us another way to get successful openers would make the class very hard to balance (ie, inconsistent.)

Of course there will always be people complaining about abilities they find annoying, and trust me I can list things from every class that is at least on par with subterfuge in the "annoying" aspect.

Subterfuge and C&D isn't OP. Accept it, adjust your play to be more defensive during openers vs rogue teams, and I can't emphasize this enough, PAY ATTENTION TO THE DAMN GAME AND STOP LETTING ROGUES GET FREE RESTEALTHS OFF. You have no idea how incredibly simple it is to get restealths atm without people even trying to stop you if you know what you're doing (and pretty much 90%+ of all restealths I ever get could be prevented or taken huge advantage of by the opposing team if they knew what they were doing.)

#3875872 Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed

Posted hid on 15 April 2013 - 11:10 PM

View Postvarellol, on 15 April 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

these nerfs are good, honestly.
now they just should reduce dance dmg and buff hemo to sanguary vain at least with a glyph and buff hemo/backstab dmg, playstyle like cata just without retarded 2 bombs and retarded dance dmg.

btw. rlly cant understand DMG buffs to other classes like feral/hunter/monk.

btw. my overall solution to fix arena is buff battle fatigue to  80% heal reduce and like 60-70% dmg reduce so health bars go up and down slowly and not like the shit right now  1 global  100-0 and 1-100 with 1 cast, but thats just what would make the game more fun for me.

Yeah, and rets got the highest damage buff any class has ever gotten in the history of the game (flat 15% damage buff on everything), outside of the damage buff ww monks got on the 5.2 PTR, before getting the dmg buff reverted (and turned into a nerf) 1 day before 5.2 going live. Hopefully they aren't done tinkering with changes in 5.3 just yet. :)

#3875849 Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed

Posted hid on 15 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

View Postaveruki, on 15 April 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Still they have to make some changes to subterfuge and cloak and dagger. Cloak and dagger should have at least 5 sec cd. So if you gain some distance while rogue is dancing he wont port to you instantly.


Edit: Ok, let me elaborate, any nerf to this ability and not a single rogue will pick it over shadowstep.

#3875768 Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed

Posted hid on 15 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

  • Glyph of Cheap Shot now increases the duration of Cheap Shot by 0.5 second, down from 1 second.
  • Glyph of Garrote now increases the duration of Garrote's silence effect by 1 second, down from 1.5 seconds.
source: http://blue.mmo-cham...notes-april-15/

#3868925 Shuriken Toss

Posted hid on 30 March 2013 - 06:57 PM

I personally don't like ST and I pick MfD whenever it is even remotely feasible to not have ST. If you want to have ST nerfed I'm all for it, but then you have to give rogues better mobility (something along the lines of shadowstep baseline and possibly breaking roots), otherwise we're back to "waddle waddle".

#3821265 Windwalker Weapon Choice

Posted hid on 14 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

Haha, I really don't know where to begin. The amount of retardation is pretty high in your latest post. You obviously either didn't read my posts, or you didn't understand them because pretty much everything you say is based on incorrect assumptions about me and/or what I said. I explained to you in detail why you don't want to stack expertise(above ~4%), but you seem to have just ignored that and your comeback is "you're never energy starved as a monk", lol. Such a flawed(retarded, tbh) argument.

Never did I claim that our survivability is fine, actually I went into detail explaining how it isn't (here and in previous posts in the monk forum). Since the recent burst hotfixes our main problem isn't survival. I'm saying that the bigger problem is us not being able to output as much pressure as other melees, amongst other things. (another big one is having no form of cc avoidance/breaker as well as no survival cd and/or passive that works when stunned.)

Why you feel the need to personally insult me without even knowing anything about me is beyond me, your whole post makes you sound like a pissed off 16 year old. Grow up and learn how to argue and discuss things without resorting to personal insults and other fallacies.

The rest of your post is too retarded to even begin to argue against so I won't even bother, if you want people to take you seriously - maybe you shouldn't act like a moron.

#3804036 WW Monks aren't totally useless...

Posted hid on 13 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

The anecdotal "evidence" wasn't really so anecdotal btw (I did explain it poorly, though). Pretty much every single time I die it's by a huge overkill (and by overkill I mean there being like 5+ seconds left until I'd even have a chance to get healed because of cc, and usually in the first few seconds of a stun on me), it's not one of these fallacies where I go "this one time I died to a 200k overkill so gearing defensively OBVIOUSLY doesn't work!", it happens pretty much on every single death I have.

Why more resil wouldn't help here I already explained in my first post - it's simply how monk cds work, we're unkillable outside of stuns while we have CDs ready, and when they are down we just die.

I have no problems surviving for the first ~1-1.5 minutes (although in return for them training me we never get any counterpressure), and then as soon as CDs run out I just drop dead, they don't even need to have big CDs ready.

There is no other way to explain this to someone who hasn't played the class, there's no other class/comp that you can have experience from to relate to it, it's a completely new thing in wow. The closest thing to a monk without cds is a rogue without any cds, without feint. This is why I used anecdotal examples over a more fact-based approach. The monk class hasn't been figured out enough yet for there to really be any hard facts about how to play it.

What it all comes down to in the end is either you trust me on my word (and quick/rough explanations), and trust in my ability to make these calls - or you don't (you probably shouldn't since you don't know me and don't know how well I know the game, but I'm just saying. :).) These posts are all just my views on the monk class and how it should be played and I can't really provide proof for everything I say (I can provide good arguments though, if you ask specific questions. But when just responding to general questions I will not go into too much detail for obvious reasons.)

I always appreciate having someone to theorycraft with, it's one of the things I enjoy most in this game.

#3804034 WW Monks aren't totally useless...

Posted hid on 13 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

I completely agree, and I also hate anecdotal evidence. It's just hard to explain to someone who hasn't played the class without bringing up (stupid) examples, and remember I'm not only speaking to you here, I'm speaking to everyone who reads the forum. I tried my best to explain to you from my POV (ofc it's still subjective, but so is everything in wow regarding strategies/gearing/positioning) and included a bad example. I feel you get to hung up on that though, that example wasn't the only thing I said to explain my reasoning for going for the damage over resil. I'm fully aware that for all the other classes resil is by far the best choice. Monks are the exception atm because we have ZERO on-demand burst, absolutely zero.

What I was trying to say is that in a talent choice between +6% dmg or -15% dmg, I would take the +6% dmg in my current comp. It's on the verge of me picking the DR, if it was 6% vs 12.5% (like it actually is) then there would be no question at all, 6% vs 15% is approaching me getting the damage reduction instead. 20% DR I'd take right away.

#3803549 WW Monks aren't totally useless...

Posted hid on 12 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

View PostNadagast, on 12 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

So, from the people who actually have WW Monks, and who play them in arena, how are they in PvP right now?  Strengths?  Weaknesses?

Cons: Terrible on-demand burst (none), bad survivability if trained all game (lots of powerful defensive CDs though, and crazy avoidance from the front when not stunned: ~45% parry+dodge - pretty much a rogue without feint when being trained, which means we just blow up in stuns), annoyance of keeping tiger palm stacked (fixed in 5.1), low utility (our offhealing is getting some nice buffs in 5.1, though - will have to see how that turns out), no cc avoidance/breakers like clos/IBF/zerker rage/etc.

Pros: Amazing sustained damage, probably highest in the game (frost dks have more, but a lot of that is useless damage from diseases on off-targets. monks have 100% pure single target up-front damage), great mobility, amazing peels, great gear scaling - kind of like rogues (probably better than rogues, even), great control - we shut down casters better than any other class in the game(pre-gag order nerf warriors included), we can even stick to mages on our own, without any dispels and we absolutely fuck up warlocks(until we get instagibbed ^^) because we also have a teleport.

The main problem with monks in the current state of arenas is the lack of on-demand burst. Our only 2 "burst" cds are the pet with a 45 sec duration (more of a "sustained burst" kind of thing, it isn't bad for pressure though) and tigereye brew that takes 60-90 seconds to stack up to 10 in an arena setting, which we then can pop for a +20% damage bonus for 15 seconds. People simply aren't afraid of us, there's no cds to watch out for vs monks like there is vs every other dps class in the game.

Our survivability might be a problem, but it might also be that because we lack any kind of cds to pop for counterpressure it's just easy to train us. The 5.1 changes are a step in the right direction, but I still feel that we either need a good offensive cooldown for pressure and/or access to our tanking stance in the windwalker spec so we aren't such an attractive target to simply train the whole game with no drawback. I mean ferals, dks and warriors all have access to their tanking stance, why we don't I have no idea. (I know it's usually stupid to compare different classes and use that as an argument for one class getting buffs, but I really don't understand why they decided not to let windwalkers have access to it.)

If the game was balanced right now (lower amount of instant ccs, less retarded burst cds, etc) monks would probably be one of the better classes, but as it is now there is simply no reason to ever have a monk over any other melee, rogue included. At least rogues have a few comps where they can do decently just blowing cds in the first 30 sec and possibly win, monks don't even have that option, any monk team _HAS_ to play for the long game, and that is kind of hard when you have no counterpressure at all and get blown up in a stun because of zero damage reduction without cds, when our survivability relies so heavily upon cds/kiting and parry+dodge vs melees.

I've played monk to about ~2.2k rating with 2 arena partners I've played with for many years, been rank1 with on my rogue for multiple seasons, have great communication with, and so on. We actually struggle to even go above 2.2k(lol), like, we have ZERO room for mistakes even vs terrible teams. I'm convinced that my 3v3 partners could replace me with ANY other class with my gear, even if that player is 2k rating level, and pretty easily carry that guy to 2.3k+(higher than we can achieve with me on monk).

This kind of worries me because the ww monk playstyle is so similar to subt rogue, a class/spec I've played since season1, so I have a pretty good head start on most other ww monks in terms of learning the class. I'd consider myself one of the better ww monks in the game atm, and tbh, I'm kind of struggling.

Earlier on this forum I posted about how I was still hopeful for the monk class, how I see the potential etc, and I still do. I still enjoy playing it a lot. I've just had more experience now after the hotfix nerfs to BM hunters, as well as other people learning how to play against monks (plus more people playing comps like godcomp, kittycleave, MLS, etc) and I can now say that monks need help to become viable (not much, but as I said earlier, we need something like a tanking stance and/or offensive cd).

Edit: Forgot to say what comps I've played. Main comp is demo lock/monk/rsham, but we've tried mage/monk/sham, and we've tried those 2 comps but with a rdruid instead of the rsham. We've also played around with destro and affl on the lock.

As usual this unintentionally turned in to a huge post as I got into it, but I hope that's fine.