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NatiumMember Since 10 Jun 2009
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Posted Wallirik on 12 December 2014 - 01:24 AM
That seems just as "easy" as killing/cc'ing the reflection honestly.
I mean everyone always brings up "you aren't playing 1v3", well the rogue isn't either
Posted Winkay on 06 December 2014 - 11:18 PM
This car is going at ONE HUNDRED MILLION MILES PER HOUR, WHY DID THE POLICE NOT ARREST HIM, LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE
Posted Raak on 08 February 2014 - 02:24 PM
Posted Moderator on 14 January 2014 - 11:12 PM
Posted Jahmilli_ on 03 January 2014 - 11:00 PM
The main issue with it is how difficult it is to control, and how little the classes have to do to avoid CC (compared to other comps). People just want simple answers as to why a comp is out of control, and usually those answers come out right as you die, that's when you're most annoyed. "I CANT EVEN FUCKING PLAY MY CHARACTER" or "90K ICE LANCE WHAT A FUCKING JOKE." A lot of people don't really think of what goes on during the entire game, just towards the end when they're dead or about to die. From my experience it seems that most people (mainly casters of course) can't even think of the actual reason why SGX is so miserable to play against, but all of them know that they hate fighting it.
The shaman and the goat PASSIVELY (this is the worst part) make up for some of the biggest weaknesses of EVERY class, (excluding casters). The comp alone is the sole reason a lot of comps are no longer viable, and also the sole reason a lot of classes (mainly physical and healers) are viable.
- RET goat shaman (Ret easily controlled by casters / lacks CC)
- DK goat shaman (squishy / lack CC and mobility)
- FERAL goat shaman (Feral easily feared / very squishy outside of CDs / lacks CC)
- HOLY (Priest/Paladin) goat shaman (Priest and Paladin both easily controlled by casters)
- MONK (WW and MW) goat shaman (MW Monk easily controlled by non warlock/spriest casters, assuming they're undead.)
(WW Monk unique playstyle / very squishy outside of CDs / lacks CC)
- HUNTER goat shaman (Hunter very squishy vs casters / easily feared)
Almost every spec above is NOT viable at a high level outside of SGX.
The hunter alone has enough CC to make up for any that his X lacks, and the shaman alone has enough ways to keep their DPS/Healer out of CC
Goat shaman (especially shaman) is also the bane of any wizard cleave, they are non-existent. The ONLY viable wizard cleaves are ones with shamans, and even those should get demolished by SGX.
The class simplifies and limits any comp its a part of, and any comp it plays against. There is only so much you can do... they lack depth.
Another one of the comps best qualities is how easy it is to maintain proper positioning in comparison to other comps. This mainly has to do with the shaman, and this is also my biggest issue with the class in general. Shamans are an extremely defensive class (If you ever play or watch any 3v3 game go to dampening, 99% of the time there will be at least 1 shaman in the arena), they don't really have any real CC, they are VERY disruptive, and they're the most difficult class to control. It's rare to catch a shaman out of position, because majority of the time there really is no reason to be. That's why I think it's much simpler to play any shaman comp than it is to play nearly ANY other comp in the game.
Being able to effectively use your healer CC offensively while maintaining proper positioning is a HUGE part of your teams success. Many healers and teams struggle with this.
You will not be competitive at a high level in arena without effective fears from your priest.
You will not be competitive at a high level in arena without effective clones from your druid.
You will not be competitive at a high level in arena without effective Hojs/fears/repents from your paladin.
You will not be competitive at a high level in arena without effective incaps/stuns/roots from your monk.
You WILL be competitive at a high level in arena without effective.... 45second CD hexes...... from your shaman.
Shamans do NOT CC, they PREVENT CC. They slow down the tempo of every arena they enter. That's also another reason you won't ever see a high rated shaman comp without some kind of cast reduction spell (Curse of enfeeblement / Goat / Mind numbing) on their team. They need to slow games down and simplify them as much as possible in order to win. That's also why they are so weak against melee cleaves, or just any melee in general. (there is no ability you can press to reverse bloodlust a melee class).
Not to mention they walk in arena with a PASSIVE damage and healing buff to everyone on their team. Grace of Air (3000 mastery)
I'm not sitting here saying it is unstoppable. I am saying that the amount of effort and coordination required to win games, in comparison to every other comp in the game, is much less as Shaman Goat, and I think every goat and shaman would agree that without each other, they wouldn't have nearly as much success in arenas.
Posted Capers on 13 January 2014 - 07:24 PM
Posted Nadagast on 03 December 2013 - 06:49 AM
Posted Saracens on 28 November 2013 - 05:24 AM
Just because glad is going to be easier to get also means that more people will play. More people will get better and the PvP community will thrive. In previous seasons where 70% of the glad teams are single character sales what was the point of these people even trying?
tl;dr: More titles is good because titles mean nothing anyways. If you want competition this is the way to get it.
Posted Cakesz on 27 November 2013 - 08:10 PM
You utterly retarded mongoloids are complaining about something like this.
At the very least, legitimate players might actually be capable of getting it themselves.
You all disgust me.
It's even more delicious when the vast majority of the members of this site are THE reason that Arena has died. So get shit on retards.
Posted Frostwor on 05 October 2013 - 04:57 PM
Hello guys, lately I have noticed a lot of rogues have moved to assa or even combat, just because sub damage feels low, and people dont know actually what to do as a sub rogue to deal damage. So I decided to make this short guide that will explain some very basic things which I have the feeling a lot of the new rogues or " low skilled" kinda miss and cant enjoy sub because of that. Feel free to correct me if I have written something wrong and etc.
This guide is written for arenas, in rbgs and duels the playstyle and talent choice may differ.
Fast talent choice and why to pick them.
This is a mini dance and allows more damage, control, survivability and also allows you to land your opener much more easy vs teams that have high AoE or very good positioning at the start of the arena.
2) Nerve Strike or Combat Readiness
This is a personal choice to how you play. In general NS is against caster based teams, and CR vs physical based teams. However you can still go with NS vs physical based teams it's a matter of choice.
3) Cheat Death or Elusiveness
Personally Elusiveness is in every way better than CD atm for me. I have seen some rogues pick CD but ± 95% of the rogue elite goes with Elusiveness. CD however is sometimes good and can be changed vs teams that can 1 shot you, like the Elemental shaman teams which can gain 1 proc and global you.
4) Shadow Step
SS gives a lot of utility. It can be used both aggressively or defensively by stepping to your healer, even eating traps some times with it. Another great bonus is that you go behind the target. This means that after it you can use and ability and it will land 100%. E.G. Warrior uses Die by the Sword. SS>Disarm or Kidney will make sure you don't take damage while he uses it and your ability wont get parried. The other choices in this tree are also very good for certain situations but SS is the top one atm.
5) Pray on the Weak
This tallent is the way to go for a sub rogue, the 10% bonus is not only for you but also for your partners. I have seen some rogues using Para poison but just because it is much more efficient when you train a target (which is not what sub does), the root is also helpful but it DRs other roots so its not that good with most rogue comps since your partners already have roots too.
6) Marked for Death
It has 1minute cd which has amazing synergy with Shadow Dance, using 5 combo points for evi or kidney while dancing is insane.
Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins give you the bonus damage from Sanguinary Veins (25%). This glyph saves you time, combo points, and energy. It is very nice and helps out switching to other targets a lot. In other words keep Hemmo dot 24/7.
I will not discuss other glyphs as they don't give you any damage and I want to keep this guide simple. I will just list the useful in pvp.
Blind - (a must have one), Cheap Shot, Garrot, Feint, Cloak of Shadows, Recovery,
Recuperate, Smoke Bomb, Redirect.
There are 3 general ways in which you can open a target depending on how much pressure you want to make. The general formula and the type of CC or DMG ability depends on what CDS the enemy uses and what class he is:
Trick you partner > Premed > Slice n Dice > Opener type > Crowd Control > Damage > Crowd Control > Damage.
Shadow Blades with Subterfuge. This opener uses Subterfuge as a mini Shadow Dance and along with Blades makes insane damage at the start and it is followed later (after DR resets) by the real SD. The tactic is to force a lot of defensive CDs from your enemy and then utilise SD as a lockdown//damage imput and land a kill.
Pure SD opener. Pretty much applying pressure at start again forcing defensive cds, and waiting for the next dance or reset.
Blades and Dance. This is usually used vs targets that dont have safe net abilities like Iceblock and can be killed in the opener if they get too greedy in using defensive CDs or dont get help from their partners.
Slice n Dice.
This may look a stupid topic but a lot of the new rogues dont understand the way energy gain works since this expansion (Cata also ) is not what the game style with energy was before and it feels less punishing but it adds up a lot.
So the reason of keeping slice n dice is not only because it's amazing for the auto atack % we get but because of the energy gain, as a rogue you should try keep SnD as much as possible up but also monitor it closely. Try not spamming combo points in useless refresh of SnD (E.G. you have 20 seconds more and you refresh it to max) because in this way you lose a Evi, Recupe or a KS timing.
The Energy Pulse of SnD
Now here it gets really important and this is the reason I have put SnD as a section in this guide. Rogue's energy regen is base line and adds up a bit from haste but with the current state of the game it doesn't really matter if you have some haste more or less. However, SnD gives you 8 energy every 2 seconds due to Energetic Recovery. The trick is exactly in this. When you start open or try to burst down an enemy and you have 100% of your energy you have to aim in timing exactly the 1st ability you wand on your target with that energy regen tick.
For example: I'm playing 2s as a Rogue dPriest vs Death Knight rDruid. My mass stealth is about to expire and I decide to open on the Dk since i cant find the druid. I sap the dk so that my priest can get a good position and clean the dk from buffs. I do SnD wait for my energy to go max and time my cheap shot or garrot right before the energy tick comes so while my Global cool down is up I will get 8+ energy more, so I have actually reduced the cost of my 1st ability with 8 energy which is a lot.
There are few addOns which can help you in getting used to this energy tick regen but practice makes it the best and in time it will become like an inner heart beat to when the tick procs.
Setting up the kill.
It is incredible how many times I have seen people playing around 2k rating even higher blow cool downs into stupid things and when having a bad position. Most classes have very high stable damage and rely on it to land a kill, so its less punishing. However Sub rogue is not one of them. Sub has very low damage outside of cooldows and needs very good timing and coordination with your team so you can apply pressure and even land a kill. So this is how you do it. (This is the general situation as in arenas a lot of things can change and its not ideal.)
When you see your SD is coming back ask if your partner has any damage cds up, if he doesn't you can choose between waiting for him to get them or just using dance to apply pressure. You can also try set a kill with SD only and your partner helping you dps.
During the time of the burst you must 1st cc the other 2 people from the enemy team so they cant Peel or Heal. Try to do this CC when you see the enemy has no or little defensive abilities and has no shields or hots on him. You can use Evasion or Cloak aggressively so that the enemy cant Peel you but make sure you dont blow such important defensive cds if you have nothing else (vanish etc.) because if you dont land a kill you will be in big trouble.
Pool your energy up to 100% or around it have SnD up and a garrot or hemmo dot on your target to trigger the bonus from Sang Veins. Make sure you have 5cp and TotT your parter.
Land a full KS and Dance with Mark (and Blades if you have)*. What actually happens at the moment is that you'r giving 25% bonus damage to your partner because of TotT and Pray on the Weak this is = to him having a berserker buff in a BG the damage should sky rocket. This is one of the scenarios when the target has nothing to evade this stun. There is no certain formula and you just need to practice it sometimes you will need to CS first to force a CD like blink then kidney and garrot, sometimes you will have to garrot first and so on. Play arenas:)
*Sometimes you can use vanish if your dance is on cd to force a subterfuge mini dance if the timing is good.
The meta game here is that if unpeeled Dance on a naked target with no shields or hots should be able to get him to at least 30% only from your damage and if you are not lucky with your crits.
Dat Damage Outside of Dance.
So far we have seen that Sub dance is very good and the main tool for doing damage unfortunately it lasts only a few seconds, so how do you do damage outside of SD?!
Training a target is brainless because after 3-4 backstabs you drop around 20% of your energy and stick around it meaning you can land 1 stab every few seconds after...
The right way is to pool energy as much as possible while trying to sit on a target with auto attack (you do this mainly to prevent a caster from casting not due to the dmg input). Once you have pulled some energy and you have 5cp TotT your partner and kidney shot this is the best thing you can do (+25% more damage to your partner) if you cannot get a reset and ur getting trained or chasing a healer.
If the enemy is trying to CC you or simply dont focus you and go for your partners try get as many as resets you can. Every time you do so you get a mini dance due to subterfuge and you automatically pool energy while waiting to reset. Dont forget you also gain 5% more damage from master of subtlety every time you go in stealth and not just only that but also find weakness which is one of the main reasons why you reset.
In arena doing the right thing at the right time is the most important thing try pumping your energy into damage when you see the target has no defensive buffs. Trying to hit a warrior while he has a 100k shield from a disc priest with renew will just waste your energy. Try damaging when his shield is down or right after it expires.
Some targets may seem very nice to continue smashing on but that is just a mistake. Pumping damage into a warrior at 40% hp with shield wall up while his healer is free casting heals on him is useless, he wont die. Instead better pool energy while the shield wall is up so you can use it after and apply more pressure.
Another very important part of the game no matter what dps you are. Switching between targets is very important. Many times people run in bad positions and are a good target to atack, sometimes they simply have no shields or hots on them and so on. This is a part of the game that is way too complex to explain in a guide and it takes practice to see when you can make a good switch. But by doing so you will probably not only do some more damage but force a defensive cd which is yet another advantage.
I hope you have enjoyed this guide and will force new players to choose rogue and see the fun aspects in it. This is a very small % of what rogue does in arena since it covers only some very basic tricks and improving your damage. Yet the real thing about rogue is controling your opponent. It would be lovely if some of the top dogs from the rogue community reply in this thread and give some ideas to edit this content.
P.S. Still need to edit typos and add some comas etc. etc. will do it later on.
Posted snugglebunny on 10 November 2013 - 02:00 PM