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Creamo

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#4319163 Frost DK Research and Stat Facts (Patch 6.2)

Posted Flakkar on 26 December 2014 - 10:05 PM

*** UPDATED FOR 6.2 ***

Hi everyone,

Here we go again folks! It's about time for the 6.2 version. Everything is different now and 2h is taking the back seat while DW appears to be the best early in the season with amazing sustained pressure and the ability to mow plate wearers into the ground!

TLDR: See my 6.2 frost stat priority and gear suggestion at the bottom.

Change History:
Jan 13, 2015 - Haste rating effect buffed by 11.1%, Icy Talons buffed to 20% haste, up from 5%. Note that tooltips in the game are not updated yet (possibly requires a client patch), but I can confirm the changes are live due to seeing them on my stat sheet. See edits in green throughout the post.
July 12, 2015 - Updated for 6.2. See edits in blue throughout the post!

Special Notes:
(*) means I assume it's correct if not bugged but I didn't test it. I'll put this next to things I take for granted.
(**) means I actually tested this to prove that it is indeed this way. For brevity, I didn't outline how, but I can if requested.
(?) means I'm not sure, but if someone could test this somehow, it would be great

Let's start with seconday stat ratings and how much damage they contribute.

Rating points required for 1% increase (** tested this myself):
Haste 90
Crit 110
Multistrike(MS) 66
Mastery(MA) 55
Versatility(Vers) 130

Let's take a realistic but nice looking number of how much of each stat you could stack, say 1000 rating points.

For 1000 rating points you would get:
11.1% Haste
9.09% Crit
15.15% MS
18.18% MA
7.69% Vers
In addition, most stats scale linearly with the exception of stats that add flat % bonus damage ( Versatility and Mastery), which become more and more powerful as you add other stats.

NOTE: Crit and MS are nerfed in PvP! This may be obvious to some, but a lot of people don't take this into account when calculating stat priorities! Each Crit does 150% damage instead of 200%, and there is only one chance at a 30% MS instead of two chances. This also applies to heals!

Taking the nerfs into account, let's do an average damage increase you would get from each stat if you stacked 1000 rating worth. I will not account for burstiness here, because getting a string of lucky crits of multistrikes can always happen, but it will even out in the end, and you don't want to rely on pure luck to win arena matches.

Haste (13.86% (given infinite uptime) DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Haste is a good stat for frost and provides excellent boosts to sustained DPS. Here's why:
Icy Talons(10% and 20%) and Unholy Aura(5%) apply multiplicatively, all haste you equip is getting multiplied by 1.1*1.20*1.05 = 1.386.

Let's take an example:
I have 15.50% base haste with nothing equipped. Icy Talons gives 10% flat, plus an additional 10% modifier on every other haste effect except Unholy Aura for some reason. Unholy Aura gives 5% flat, plus an additional 5% modifier on every other haste effect. This gives 10 (icy talons) + 5 (unholy aura) + 10*0.05 (unholy aura bonus to icy talons base 10%) = 15.50. I am an NE so I get 1% Haste at night, but I did this test during the day where I did not have that 1% buff to Haste. I also did the test at night and the numbers I see are consistent.

Icy Talons (recently buffed) also adds 20% more of the equipped haste stat.

When you add Unholy presence on top, it adds yet another factor, multiplying (not adding to) every source of haste by another 10 or 20% (depending on spec), as well as adding its own 10 or 20% base amount.

1000 Haste rating / 90 pts per % rating * 1.386% extra for Frost DKs = 15.4% Haste, but let's use 15% for the sake of example since it's a nicer number.
  • 15% haste means 15% faster attack speed, which means 15% more auto-attack damage (**).
  • 15% haste also means 15% more Killing Machine (KM) procs (**) due to increased attack speed.
  • 15% haste also means 15% faster rune regeneration (**), meaning that (for ex) over 100 seconds, a rune would fully cycle 11.5 times instead of 10 if you depleted it instantly every time it came back.
  • Haste does NOT affect the GCD because it's already capped at 1 second (**).
  • Haste does NOT affect diseases (**).
  • Haste does NOT affect Conversion, or Breath of Sindragosa (BoS), or any skill that says it ticks "every X seconds".
It's tempting to think that haste offers a 15.4% DPS increase, but there's a couple things to note.
  • Haste does not fully kick in immediately once you start attacking. At first you will get faster auto-attacks, so about 2.6-3 seconds after you attack, you will get a second auto-attack that will be sooner with more haste. But after that, it will take around 7 seconds for runes to start coming back due to higher haste.
  • Haste does not affect diseases. From my tests, diseases seem to compose at most 10% of my DPS. I don't personally think it's worth noting spread damage from having it on multiple targets as Frost spec. The damage is so pitiful that it will not factor into you winning games. You are not a rot spec.
  • Haste does not affect the GCD.
  • Haste does not affect Breath of Sindragosa while it's up, so it will not make it burst faster. However, it will make your runes come back faster, which might allow BoS to stay up longer due to the extra runic power you will have. This only applies for 2h because BoS is bad as DW.
  • Haste can at most affect the recharge of 3 runes simultaneously. If you don't have one rune of each type depleted, then Haste's contribution is being reduced. If you have 2 runes recharging, then you're getting 66.7% of Haste's effect. One rune is 33.3% etc.
  • Haste is uptime dependent. (See below for uptime explanation) This means that if you can't keep one of each rune type constantly on cooldown, then you won't get all of its DPS increase.
  • Haste also adds some utility because you will be able to use Icy Touch more often for purges, plus more uses of Chains of Ice, and you will have more RP for interrupts, Conversion, and Dark Simulacrum.
  • I also see a lot of people saying that if you have a crappy connection, Haste is worse. This may be real if you lose some time after runes come off cooldown. Try switching to Unholy presence and feel the effects of 10% more haste. Imagine that effect in Frost presence where you don't lose the RP gen, and see if it would be better for you.
  • There is concern that there's such thing as too much haste. This is true to an extent. As you stack more and more haste, Versatility and Mastery (DW only) become more powerful, so you don't want to stack haste. You just want some of it.  
So to conclude: 1000 points of haste gives roughly 13.86% DPS increase (1.54% lost due to not affecting diseases) if you have infinite uptime. In reality, this isn't going to happen, but it's extremely unlikely that you will not have at least a few runes on cooldown, which is enough to get lots of benefit from Haste. In addition, since Versatility and Mastery (DW only) scale better with more gear they will outpace Haste eventually. They also contribute to burstiness whereas Haste only lets you burst more often.

Crit (3.64% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Yes, Crit is really bad, and probably the worst stat for Frost, including DW. Here's why.
1000 rating / 110 rating per % = 9.09 Crit chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding a 9.09% chance to do 50% additional damage, meaning on every attack that can crit we are adding 4.545% damage.
  • Diseases can Crit! Actually all damage a DK does can Crit! (*)
  • But there's a catch: Killing Machine. KM guaranteed Crits means the your Crit is useless when KM procs! Based on my tests, about half of my Oblits and Frost Strikes are used when KM is up. If you are really good at managing your resources, it might be more than half, but let's assume half for now. On my tests, my Frost Strikes and Oblits (2h or DW) combined do between 40-50% of my overall damage no matter if I'm bursting, or just normally DPSing. So that means that if half my oblierates/frost strikes don't use KM, then my Crit is not being used half the time, so the real Crit contribution is more around 4.545% * 80% = 3.64%.
Multistrike (4.545% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
As Blizzard themselves have said, Crit and MS are equal, even in PvP.
1000 rating / 66 rating per % = 15.15% MS chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding an 15.15% chance to do 30% additional damage, so by simple math: 15.15% * 30% = 4.545% damage increase.
  • Every attack can MS, including diseases. I am not sure if Death Strike healing can MS (?), but I am pretty sure that Conversion cannot (?).
  • Multistrikes can crit! And KM procs (if they proc MS), will automatically Crit on the MS proc.
Mastery (~12.2% for DW, (~6% for 2h) DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
For 2h Mastery is kinda weird and hard to calculate, but it proved to be pretty crap in 6.1. Now in 6.2, DW is heavily favored due to the savage buffs to Frost Strike and Howling Blast. So much so, that Mastery is easily the best stat for DW.

1000 rating / 55 rating per % = 18.18% Mastery for 1000 rating.
  • This means 18% increased Frost and Shadowfrost damage (**). But how much of our damage is actually Frost or Shadowfrost?
  • For 2h: According to my tests, I get between 25-40% Frost damage (when doing regular dps), averaging around 33%. Strangely enough, this applies even when doing crazy burst with BoS, because you are not using Frost Strike.
  • For 2h: So therefore 18.18% * 33% = ~6% damage increase per 1000 Mastery. This beats Crit and MS assuming at least 25% of your damage is Frost or Shadowfrost, which is a pretty safe assumption.
  • For DW: According to my tests, I get between 67-70% Frost or Shadowfrost damage (when doing regular dps).
  • For DW: Therefore 18.18% * 67% = ~12.2% damage increase per 1000 Mastery.
Versatility (7.69% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
This is the easiest one to calculate. This is a great stat because it offers healing and defense bonuses.
1000 rating / 130 rating per % = 7.69% Versatility for 1000 rating.
  • 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more damage across the board on all damage DKs do (*).
  • 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more healing on Deathstrike, and other heals that are not %life based. Versatility does not increase Conversion healing!(**)
  • 7.69% Versatility also means 3.85% less damage taken from all sources (*).
Some ugly facts I found while testing:
  • The PvP target dummy at the Glad Sanctum takes double damage from crits instead of 50% more - probably a bug. Multistrikes are also causing 2 strikes instead of 1.
Strength:
I didn't test anything for Strength, but it almost never overlaps with secondary stats, so not much to discuss here. Even if it does, Str gets so many insane %-based bonuses from DK passives and procs that it easily outdoes the other stats (*).

Putting it all together:
  • All the numbers are for 1000 rating in isolation. Some may wonder if it changes when you throw all the stats together and in different amounts. It does make a difference for % damage increase stats like Mastery and Versatility, but you need thousands of rating points to see a difference. I once graphed it out and found the sweet spots and everything, but it's not worth showing here. I think the conclusion is: stack % damage stats and just get some of the rest while avoiding crappy stats like Crit.
  • Strengh is most likely the best stat in all cases, unless someone can prove otherwise.
  • For 2H: Haste and Versatility are both really good. Haste is better in terms of pure math, but Vers benefits your early burst more (i.e. the first 7-8 seconds of DPS after starting with full runes). We are looking at 13.86% more DPS (but not in the first few seconds of damage) vs 7.69% more DPS (active at all times). Haste's benefits will only fully start showing up after runes start coming off cooldown. During the initial burst, you will only gain the increased auto-attacks and KM procs. Versatility does have the healing and damage reduction benefits, though they are less important for DKs compared to the damage benefit, and Haste has some built-in survivability too due to the rune regen for Death Strike, and extra RP for Conversion. This could make a great discussion to see which is better, Haste or Vers. Looking at the DK gear though, it looks like you can usually get them both together. If your connection sucks, or you think that Haste feels worse when you play, go for Vers since it is by far the best other choice.
  • For DW: Mastery is hands down the best, followed by Versatility due to the % damage increase nature. Crit and MS remain crap, and Haste is somwhere in the middle. Haste is nice to have, but not nice to stack.
  • I have studied the uptime requirements of Haste and here's what I see: you are getting 100% of Haste's effect if you constantly have at least one rune of each type on cooldown. That is, you must have at least 1 death rune, 1 frost rune, and 1 unholy rune on cooldown. Haste also increases autoattack speed, but most of the benefit is in the runes, not the autoattack. It's probably common knowledge that only one rune of each type can be recharging at a time (if not, see Haste section above). Haste DPS is only worse than Versatility if you are sitting on two runes of the same type two rune pairs for a significant period of time. I have been checking my runes for a few weeks now, and I am almost never sitting on two rune pairs while in combat (except at the beginning when all runes are up, but it takes only 1 GCD to put enough runes on cooldown). Even if you're kited, you are still using icy touch for purges (thanks Scoot), chains of ice, howling blast, etc and using up those runes.
  • There is no doubt that for 2H, Vers is better for bursting. Haste doesn't help you much if you're blowing ERW and Plague Leech.
  • Crit is flat out the worst from the numbers.
Stat Priority:
So the stat prio for 6.2 DW Frost in my opinion is the following ('>>' means much better).
Str >> MA >> Vers > Haste > MS >> Crit

The stat prio for 6.2 2h Frost remains:
Str >> Vers > Haste > MS >= Mastery >> Crit

Gear Selection:

Go DW this season. The pressure it puts out is unreal! Hope they don't nerf it...
Here is my best attempt at putting together a gearset that satisfies the above. For 2H, you want no set pieces at all except maybe the pants. For DW you want the 4 pc bonus, and the 1 piece you don't want is the chestpiece. Some of the DK set pieces aren't BiS, but the 10% Frost damage bonus is worth it as DW. You should also prefer nonset epics over blues.

Helm: Set helm
Chest: MA/Vers
Shoulders: Set shoulders
Gloves: Set gloves
Legs: Set pants

Boots: MA/MS
Belt: Vers/MA
Bracer: MA/Haste
Neck: MA/Crit
Cloak: MA/Haste
Ring1: MS/Haste
Ring2: MA/Crit
Trinket1: Str with on use Vers
Trinket2: If human the alternate Str trinket or Vers+proc Str one. If any other race, the 800 Vers stun breaker trinket.
Enchants: Mastery

Weapon Enchants: Fallen Crusader mainhand, Razorice offhand

Final projected bonuses:
+7.7% MS
+36.1% MA
+13.5% Vers (with 800 Vers trinket), 10.7% without
+6.0% Crit
+21.6% Haste



#4457474 Force of Nature Question

Posted zzatbrah on 22 July 2015 - 06:35 AM


you press the button


#4451762 race

Posted zzatbrah on 12 July 2015 - 06:03 PM

View Postroastys, on 12 July 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

tbh imo worgen best race now because you get that human feel with all the extra rp potential... and op racial

two posts and youre already FUCKING TOXIC


#4433816 Dodging

Posted HeyimJack on 10 June 2015 - 03:51 PM

View PostImtaz, on 10 June 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Consider playing a real bracket
3s isn't a real bracket at the moment either lol the game's in such a shit state


#4428839 Boomie 2s problem

Posted Thyraz on 27 May 2015 - 01:09 AM

I usually just run around in bear form while spamming fearie swarms/treant roots and tank damage for all eternity with no problem while letting my rogue get restealths. Make sure you're playing with glyph of the shapemender as well!


#4431755 S17 versatility gear only available from RBGs & Ashran weekly

Posted Sadistz on 05 June 2015 - 02:47 AM

Blizzard tells us to provide constructive feedback, and then introduce changes like this where the only proper response is "You guys are f*cking retarded".


#3752536 PROOF @hydrahacked

Posted Nisslol on 28 August 2012 - 12:36 AM

Okay, I think justice needs to be done and I will call Blizz and do the same thing to Xandyn's account. Do you think this will pass?

Posted Image


#4395548 Feral Versatility gear

Posted Erch on 03 March 2015 - 06:34 AM

... except that crit directly converts to sustained damage through CP generation in the long run. Multi-strike would be the chancy stat for us. Granted, you wouldn't want to stack crit exclusively. I've always found the sweet spot for feral crit has been 30-35% for cp generation as long as you're not putting yourself out by getting there. Once I hit that mark, I tend to diversify into whatever stat adds consistency to our damage; vers and mastery currently.


#4391500 Are a lot of people quiting?

Posted Structural on 23 February 2015 - 04:02 AM

i just walk into ashran and all my friends appear, sure some maybe npcs and all but they're still friends


#4403074 New to Hunter Class

Posted Knaittiz on 21 March 2015 - 01:05 AM

k seems like a perfectly good thread to say FUCK HUNTERS AND FUCK YOUR DINOSAUR


#4397436 6.1 Windwalker PvP Guide

Posted Dizzeeyo on 07 March 2015 - 03:13 AM

View PostResteo, on 07 March 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

What are your titles and rating are you really only 1300 or is Aj glitched? I just wanna make sure I'm taking advice from someone with experience instead of a 1300 junker who thinks he's good.
watch the video

decide for yourself if you find it helpful/useful or not

be less of an idiot when posting on here

if the only guides allowed on this site were those made by people with 5+ titles and 3k current rating, this site would have zero guides, and people like you would have no choice but to go to skillcapped and pay to access some 14 year old swedish kid telling you things about your class that you should really know already

have a nice day exDee :)


#4402042 This expansion so far

Posted Sosseri on 18 March 2015 - 09:26 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image


#4400700 Rogues with kick/deadly throw hacks, what to do?

Posted TOmjashroom on 15 March 2015 - 06:32 AM

Make a macro that cancels your spell instantly i.e.
/stopcasting
/stopcasting
/cast [insert spell here]
/stopcasting
/stopcasting

If you pick up someone is interrupt hacking you use that button and it will mostly juke out the bot I have one with penance on my Priest it is really helpful vs all these faggy combat rogues that use the hack to insta kick penance. And Actually you will find if you juke out all the kicks with this the game is actually easier for you that if they dont use the hack.

The only downside is sometimes if they are smart they will turn the bot on and off in the game and that can be aids but atleast this is one way of fixing the problem.


#4387900 6.1/ 6.2 Sub Talk

Posted Lightning13 on 15 February 2015 - 03:51 PM

View PostMigiyaka, on 06 February 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

Sub imho needs only a small change now to be really good - possibly something like a glyph of front stab that makes Backstab lose the directional requirement.

You mean glyph of reacharound


#4386136 Bow down to your 6.1 overlords (mages)

Posted Reliuna on 12 February 2015 - 04:39 PM

View PostPouncedd, on 12 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Hvnt logged on in a couple weeks because of mages and druids.

Now I'm unsubbing because of mages.

1 less hunter, thank god




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