lol this is why i basically stopped playing, you can literally have like 80% damage reduction and still die somehow.
I think this is part of the problem. People don't actually realize why they're dying and arena is too fast-paced for most to react. The mage has every buff in the game up:
Relic of Yu'lon
That warrants instant cooldowns or peels as any class and not just paladins as Zilea would have you believe.
Obviously it's not really excusable that one player is capable of that much burst, and this video just highlights a much larger issue. Blizzard really needs to address all of the procs and damage-increasing abilities that many classes are able to stack together.
I would like to start by saying that I don’t think rogues are currently capable of competing at a tournament level setting. The reason for this is that rogues are incredibly flimsy, the kills we get are based on critting eviscerate and making sure our other dps is doing maximum +25% damage (via tricks of the trade and prey on the weak). Only one or two things have to go wrong for us to have next to no chance at winning.
Below are the buffs I think rogues need to be both more fun and competitive:
Sanguinary Vein now gives a +30% chance to Critical Strike Ambush and Backstab (in PvP only).
Hemorrhage now also increases the duration of our Rupture by 6 seconds(stacks to maximum rupture duration)
Rogue PVP glove bonus changed to “Sprint now removes all roots and movement impairing effects when activated” (not immune)
Increased damage of backstab by 20% (in PvP only)
I’ll elaborate on the reasoning for each change:
Sanguinary Vein right now is a mandatory effect all rogues have to apply to the target and it feels quite unrewarding, the goal here is to make it feel like you –want- to apply rupture instead of it feeling like a chore. Both ambush and backstab really need to be criting or hitting harder, and the safest of these two options is buffing crit chance. This makes it easier to balance going forward since we can expect a 50% rate of crit on the ability and balance the damage around its maximum potential, instead of around its average non-crit.
Hemorrhage serves next to no purpose other than a way to drain energy if you can’t manage to get behind your target, in the past this was fine as it did about 10% less damage than backstab so it felt ok. Now it does roughly 35% less damage and costs 5 less energy, it really just feels clunky and not fun to use. My proposed change to it would help alleviate the exasperation of keeping 4 abilities up at once (Rupture, Slice & Dice, Feint, Recuperation) and also make it serve a good purpose in PvP.
The Rogue glove PVP bonus change is because rogues need a bit more mobility and I imagine that blizzard does not want to buff shadowstep, since it’s already the most taken talent and they want choice on each talent tier. This change could also be a glyph, which would make it more of a sacrifice and less of a buff since our glyphs are very tight as is (blind, garrote, cheapshot, feint). But rogues really do need a buff to mobility and I don’t feel like this change would be over doing it.
The increased damage to backstab in PvP is because backstab should be our primary source of damage, and currently it’s quite lackluster. A backstab right now on a mail target with Find Weakness and every other buff we have (glove bonus, pvp proc, sang vain, dancing steel) does about 35-40k crit. Now I feel that 35-40k crits would be fine WITHOUT find weakness and if we crit often, which we don’t. Majority of the time we won’t have find weakness on the target, and we have a 25% chance to crit. Right now my average backstab on cloth is 12k, on plate 8k, and the crits do obviously 24k and 16k respectively (which is absurdly low for it being our primary source of damage outside of eviscerate which I will go over below)
Ok so now that I’ve gone over the buffs, here’s what I think should be nerfed:
Subtlety mastery: Executioner needs to have its scaling reduced by 30% or so.
Prey on the Weak is now 7% damage bonus instead of 10%
Subterfuge reduced to 1.5 or 2 second duration
Reasoning behind these changes:
Eviscerate really just does a bit too much damage if it crits when mastery is stacked this high. On average against mail or cloth(with all procs and find weakness) I will get between 85-105k eviscerates crits, which I can then just immediately do again with mark for death, equating to a potential 210k in 2 globals. No one wants to see that kind of damage on demand. Sure it doesn’t always happen since our crit is low, but when it does it leaves the victim quite unhappy, and as a rogue I feel unsatisfied winning this way. Currently this is our only way of winning (what I aim to have change with these adjustments).
Prey on the weak is for the same reasons as above, but also to allow some choice in this tier, I really like paralytic poison, and I really like dirty tricks, but right now I can’t trade 10% damage for my partner and I for some fun utility. I like this tier and would really like it if it were more of a choice.
Subterfuge currently is broken due to a variety of reasons, the main one I can say for sure is that the victim cannot see what abilities the rogue is using, and another is that his partners cannot peel for him during it. With subtlety mastery the way it is a rogue can pop every cooldown in that window and get someone under 40% with eviscerate chain crits without even leaving stealth. Another problem is that AoEing a rogue in stealth and him having 3 seconds (more if you count vanish -> subterfuge) until he comes back out is a bit absurd, really I feel that you should be rewarded for guesstimating correctly when he’s stealthed. This will also allow more choice in this talent tier.
Feel free to chime in if you guys want, would be great to hear everyone else's opinion and refine this as needed.
Numbers are way off, especially EU. TBC had it's own difficulties, which I cba listing. Just don't judge the state of the game and its difficulty; 6 years after TBC, when you play a game that is practically solved and every tiny bit of information that could give an edge has been shared through youtube channels, instructional videos, streams and amazing addons etc.
That's definitely something I think a lot of people overlook when they say skill doesn't matter as much anymore. The skillcap in this game isn't like starcraft, it isn't THAT high. EVERYONE is significantly better now then they were in tbc. What was skillful in tbc is expected now at pretty low ratings, Ive used this example a few times in this thread because its a good one, sapping off blinds, or any kind of cc really. That was skillfull in tbc, now it's something that everyone just does, because everyone is better. Be it because of addons, guides, or 24 hour streams by top players, the game isn't necessarily worse, people are just better at it.
No nostalgia here in question. SL/SL warlocks had multiple ways of getting beat, both for 2s and for 3s; 4pc/4pc rogues weren't nearly as OP as anything that followed in next xpacks; stormherald was only really good during s1; dispel system was there for a reason when it came to druids. EVERYTHING could be countered except a really really good rogue with full pve gear, and even then - if he overextended like a dickhead he'd still get dropped.
And you saying "Glad was never particularly hard" makes me believe you're one of those people who diss TBC just to diss it. If you were any good during that period, you'd see that there was actual competition back then.
I don't know what game you were playing where you think EVERYTHING had a counter, by the end of s4, resto druids were on close to 90% of 2s teams, and 80% of 3s teams, s4 resto druids were literally more op then s9 resto shaman or s5 dk's. There were quite literally, double resto druid 2's teams that got glad in s4 because they just could not lose, and stayed until you left. I could be remembering this wrong, but I think stormherald had 127 dps on it, and s3 weapon had like 134, + stormherald had the stun, so it was definitely good until at least through s2, and during s3, not to mention mace stun in general. Also windfury/sword spec was cool. Sl/sl was uncounterable when drain life/siphon life were not affected by ms, so they could just drain tank melee and not die, i dont remember if that changed in s2 or 3, unless of course you had your 300 shadowresist BT set, HARP rogues were one of the dumbest things this game has ever seen, then warglaive/ 4piece/4piece rogues just pve'd unhealable damage into you, double healer drain teams were the most aids thing in history of this entire game. I'm in no way trying to say the game is better now then it was in tbc or wotlk, just that the game has always had horrible balance and always will.
I'm not "dissing tbc just to diss it," I enjoyed the hell out of it, but I can can see it for what it was, the same imbalanced shit this game has always been. Its like people who nostalgia Vanilla, vanilla was fun as hell but looking back it was riddled with obscene problems.
Djandawg, on 25 May 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:
no no, it was more like 3 million spots.
In s3 there were 250 or so glad spots in 2s, 150 in 3s, and 50-60 in 5s, on almost every US bg, compared to now where there is 1 5s spot per bg and 10-15 in 3s everywhere but bloodlust. If i remember correctly, glad cut off in 2s on Vengeance in s4 was like 2069, which barely even qualified for the weapon, and not even for the shoulders. I dont know how anyone can honestly say glad was harder in tbc when their were more people getting it on each bg then get it in all of North America today.
Glad was way, way easier in BC, in that there were like two thousand or so Gladiator slots then, as opposed to probably less than 200 now. In the US anyway, I didn't look at the title calc for EU (and also I didn't actually add them up, I only eyeballed them).
I have not yet been able to play more than a couple games, but I want to say that before you come on here and complain, please do your best to completely understand what is happening with your opponents. I hear way too many people complain about specs without knowing anything about how they work, or why their opponent just got super lucky (or used an expensive set of cooldowns) to kill them so quickly.
I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but it'd be better for both the community and your individual skill if you stay constructive and hungry for knowledge.
Edit: and for fucks sake, please use real numbers.
and thats why it took you 3 expansions to get glad?
And that's why you haven't gotten glad since they took it away from 2s?
I think like most people who have been playing this game forever, I've gotten better over time. I was terrible in tbc, like most people honestly, not to mention I played on dial up. Regardless, balance has always been and will always be awful in this game. The majority of people live and die by the buffs/nerfs their class gets. Something is always going to be op and that op class will look like the dumbest thing ever, but its no different then s4 warlocks/rogues/warriors/druids, wotlk dks/rets/beastcleave/protwarriors/spellcleaves, cata rogues/mages/frost dks, or whatever.
Balance will ALWAYS be terrible in this game, skill will always be subjective, if you can't accept that, find a new game.
Gotta agree, people who have been playing consistently in TBC peaked at WoTLK and set a standard that only diminished since then. The few PvP vids that come out nowadays are huge crap, and streams are not interesting ( rather watch Civ5 than WoW ).
( spoken from watching few arena streams of "highrated players" nowadays, who had silly "strategy" convos and their play was subpar )
The game was even more of a joke in tbc then it is now, but people nostalgia too hard to realize it. It was a different kind of stupid, but stupid none the less, anyone who thinks sl/sl warlocks, 4 piece/4piece rogues, macestun/stormherald warriors, 3 lifeblooms outhealing ANYTHING, and everything else that made up s3/4, was somehow more skillfull then the game today, is insane. The game has always been stupid, glad has never been particularly hard, its easier/harder for different classes each season, but it was sure as hell easier when their were 300 glad spots on every bg from 2s
I think people tend to overreact too much when a patch comes out. An example is when 5.2 came out, everyone thought thug cleave was insane (and it was). But how insane it really was slowly toned down as 5.2 passed by, people learned how to deal with thug and it started losing to almost every wizard comp + resto druid at high levels such as shatterplay / Mage + Lock.
I think this is especially true for cleaves, people always overreact to a cleave beating them in 1 second, only 1 week later to find out how to completely beat them consistently. I know this was the case for thug at least in 5.2.