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Ayato

Member Since 11 Apr 2009
Offline Last Active Today, 01:24 AM
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#4411320 Defenisves

Posted Knaittiz on 17 April 2015 - 07:24 PM

View PostElictic, on 17 April 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Does anyone else think that defensives have gotten out of hand for DPS? Things like flameglow, feint, defensive stance, blood presence. spirit bond and yseras gift shouldn't be as strong as they are or simply just shouldn't exist.
pretty much everyone in every thread made in the last couple months... :duckers:


#4405358 AT Cata is back

Posted stalebagel on 28 March 2015 - 10:52 AM

what the fuk is the point of grinding gear on an arena tournament realm


#4403254 Four Years of Tears

Posted Zarthog on 21 March 2015 - 03:58 PM

Sup boys,

I’m Babbi and I fucking love this game. Well, at least I used to.

The main question is: WHAT HAS CHANGED? What events have turned WoW into the game as we know it today?

In order to solve a problem, one must first analyze it. I will do so in small steps, and ultimately draw a conclusion.

S8 will be used as indirect paragon as I have always felt like that’s where the game had a philosophy shift, and as a consequence  started becoming uni-dimensionally dull.

Without any further ado, let’s head into it.


1.  Offensive cooldowns and on use trinkets.

The gameplay has shifted from requiring clever positioning and control towards either having or not having the right CDs at the right moment. It’s like everybody is a goddamn BM hunter nowadays. The difference in damage between having CDs up or not is absurd.

2.  Defensive Cooldowns

With the introduction of offensive cooldowns there was the obvious need for defensives to survive the damage spikes.

This turned fragile and elegant classes which revolved around positioning and control like mage and rogue into fucking tanks.

For example, look at mages in WoD. Mages can just stand in the middle of the arena carelessly, the problem is not poly having no cd as many people suggest, the problem is that they are not punishable for standing in the middle of the fucking arena spamming cc. If you ever get close to killing him, blink + blazing speed or Ice Block guarantee safety.
Same if you are a druid with displacer up. It doesn't matter if you stay in the middle of the arena, you know you are safe and your bad positioning can’t easily be punished.

Heavy CC reliant classes and healers should think twice before going in the open, mistakes and bad positioning SHOULD ALWAYS be punished, and more importantly, punishable.

3.  Homogenization

They tried to balance the game by making every class the same, they gave every melee an interrupt, they gave every healer dispel, they gave stuns to everybody (asphyx, fist of justice and stormbolt are pretty much the same ability with a different name).
They took the uniqueness out of every class, shamans no longer had BL, warriors no longer had to stance dance, mages are not elegant glass cannons anymore but fucking steel bazookas.
This might make the game more balanced, but it also makes it incredibly boring.

4. DRs

Not quite sure why blizz decided to put fear and cyclone on the same DR and leave poly as it is, either do both or don't do it at all.
I feel like there should be different solutions and this was just a failed experiment.
One way to address the DR issue would be to remove cross DRs altogether (so CCs only DR with the exact same type of CC. e.g. Fear still DRs with Intimidating Shout), but reduce the duration of every CC to 5 or 6 seconds. This way, coordination of CCs is rewarded by allowing CC chains to be much more effective, and most class combos remain viable.

5. Endless mana pools

What do you guys think about this? Should everybody have infinite resources or mana management adds depth to the game?
It’s only going to get worse as the expansion continues, as healers get more and more Spirit, while mana costs stay the same.

6. Dampening

Wod meta needs it, but should the game need it?

Maybe rather than reducing healing it should improve mana cost of healing spells? Not quite sure how I feel about it, looking for some constructive answers here.


I feel like those were the most important failed experiments. Now, what were the steps taken in the right direction?



1.  50% healing reduce gone to 25%

Still unsure if I like or dislike the change. It was probably for the best; 50% felt overwhelming and 25/30% is where it should be.

2.  Legendaries/PvE tems in PvP

It took them around 8 years of tears to take some steps towards the right direction, it is definitely better today than it was in the past, but the problem is still not completely solved.

3. Removal of titles from 5v5

I have always seen it as an irrelevant bracket, people either cheated or played to get their friends titles. Not going to miss it, thanks blizz.

4.  Removal of Bloodlust from arena

To be discussed, was it healthy? Definitely removed depth from the game but it's probably gone for the best.

5.  Cosmetic rewards

This is more important for pvp representation than most people think.

If you were to be a reasonably new player at around 2/2.2k what incentives did you get, for example in Cata? You knew you were not getting glad so why bother trying to climb?

Different rewards and goals such as 2400 pvp enchant and 2600 tabard are VERY important, as they give many players a reason to enjoy the game and push their limits.

I will overlook the fact that the post-s8 tabards look like shit and take it as a serious step in the right direction.


Now, complaining about all this is fine and dandy, but that doesn’t get us anywhere, does it?
So, what CAN we do? In order to make the game more enjoyable, A LOT of rebalancing would have to happen. However, it boils down down to two simple steps in reality:

  • Hire top PvP players to balance the PvP section of the game. I’m sure there are plenty of players out there who would do it for free, but even if they were to get paid it would be worth it for the game’s health.

We know some players consult Blizzard when it comes to PvP, but the problem is just that - they merely consult. The idea is that a group of top level players should be in charge of the PvP section, even if it’s just for Arena. If Blizzard wants to go their own way still, and implement more Ashran-like abominations, by all means let them, as long as top players get to dictate or at the very least cooperate with  Arena balance.


  • Separate PvE and PvP abilities. Blizzard has tried for 10 years to ignore this, but they have slowly started to realize it can’t be ignored. Once this point is accepted, we can finally start talking balance in a serious matter. Execute is too good? Only make it usable on 10% hp players. Rogues deal too much damage? Make red buff only 30% against players. (Note how these might or might not be necessary right now, they are just examples.)

I hear some of you ask: why do you still play the game, and why don’t you play on AT if you think S8 was so much better?

Despite its flaws, S8 PvP was as close as WoW PvP has ever gotten to perfect. No, it most certainly wasn’t perfectly balanced, but it’s hard to deny S8 gameplay was FUN. High pace gameplay alongside easy-to-learn-hard-to-master classes made it the most enjoyable season we have seen so far.

However, it is healthy for WoW to move on. The ever-changing gameplay is one of WoW’s most important aspects. I believe that, with effort from both the community’s side and from Blizzard, we can turn this game’s PvP into a healthy and enjoyable state again.


A little bit about me:

I played on and off almost every season and got my Glad title in S10. Even though I like to think my opinion is worth something, I am fully aware some of you have achieved much more in this game. I look forward to hearing your constructive criticism, should you have any.

I am always eager to discuss. Feel free to private message me or hit me up in game. Hell, you can even watch me suck and complain at http://www.twitch.tv/babbidibubbi on an extremely casual schedule.

Thank you for reading.



#4403796 damage so high

Posted Nicholaes92 on 23 March 2015 - 12:15 AM

I got £5 that says you're retarded.


#4402422 Why the 10% damage changes make such a huge difference in gameplay.

Posted Lolflay on 19 March 2015 - 05:44 PM

I like the point you've made regarding self healing affecting actual DPS, it's not exactly rocket science or unknown around here, but the amount of people who still don't understand ( WoW devs including ) which instant heals are bad are astounding.

The only healing abilities on DPS classes that can ( and must ) remain in the game are :
- Spriest flash heal
- Elemental Shaman healing surge ( enhancement shamans should just lose the ability to heal and gain a different niche )
- Boomkins should prolly have Regrowth and Rejuvenation, remove Healing Touch and any other passive/fire and forget healing they have
- Ferals keep Healing Touch, but remove everything else.
- Windwalkers can keep Surging Mist, remove healing on expel harm, chi wave and other crap ( it's not that they heal much at all or that windwalkers are a problem, but stuff like that really has no place in the game ) - a really easy fix that they can do is for example make chi wave friendly hits give a small temporary boost to speed, like move 10% faster when hit by friendly chi wave, there's numerous creative fixes to such spells
- Ret Paladins should keep the offhealing via Flash of Light tbh, they're such potent targets to train and kill that it doesn't matter if they can offheal, for now.

Everything else needs to be gone. Any Warrior self healing ? Gone. Hunters ? Gone. DKs ? Pet sac can stay, conversion = gone.

The only self healing as a DPS class ( outside of the list above ) I'd allow in arena would be arena food and bandages. Remaining 1v1 as Rogue vs Disc Priest used to be a game of bandaging and cannibalizing discs dead partner and constantly reopening and running on very low HP, for example. Both parties could win. Now ? Lolrecuperate, lolhealers doing shit damage.

Instant cast heals are fine ( Prayer of Mending, Renewing/Enveloping Mist, Renew, etc ) as long as they don't heal more than 1/3 of casted heals, also instant cast heals only became a problem once DPS classes got their ridiculous self healing, in MoP it took you 30+ seconds to kill a DPS class while the DPS class was keeping itself with numerous oh shit cooldowns and buttons, and then when healer would exit CC, he'd instantly bomb the target to full HP within 2 seconds, rofl.


#4402392 Why the 10% damage changes make such a huge difference in gameplay.

Posted Vadren on 19 March 2015 - 04:25 PM

So after damage being nerfed by 10%, and then with it reverted, I feel like a lot of people are confused about why it makes such a huge difference in match duration and overall feel of arena... Maybe even Blizzard. Some people may expect that 10% less damage means it takes 10% longer to kill an opponent in arena, but this isn't the case.

TLDR: Blizzard doesn't always think enough about what they're doing and sometimes it shows. The 10% damage nerf can increase match duration by a lot, while still not fixing the burst issue of some classes.

Disclaimer: This is napkin math without any real data. It does nothing more than illustrate the kinds of problems umbrella changes in %damage can cause and doesn't prove that the hotfix did cause these sorts of issues (although anecdotal evidence would suggest that it did).

The following is a time to live (TTL) graph and it shows how long it takes a player to die given a specific amount of health, dps and healing. The basic formula is:

TTL = health/(damage per second - healing per second)

The following is a graph with Dps along the x axis and TTL on the y axis in seconds. I've chosen some arbitrary values for health (300k) and hps (10k).

Posted Image

It's clear from the graph that below 10kdps TTL is infinity, which should be obvious because if you do less damage than healing then you aren't killing anything. The major take away from this is when dps is very close to hps, then very small changes in the dps cause a very large change in TTL.

The following graph shows the same TTL curve with the 10% damage nerf (in green):

Posted Image

Lets compare some values from the two curves.

@15kdps

TTL(prenerf) = 60s
TTL(nerf) = 85.7s

% increase in TTL = 42.8%

That's a huge difference in the time it takes to kill someone in arena. Of course the values I've chosen are arbitrary and arena is more dynamic, so lets look at some more examples.

If we consider a simplified situation using the most popular ideal match duration (from a poll in another post) of 4min and calculate how the 10% damage nerf affected this ideal.

Here I'm calculating how much more dps than hps to get a 4minute match.

(dps - hps) = 300000/240
(dps - hps) = 1250

Since we don't arena in a vacuum where healers are afk and people die to auto attacks over 4min we need a value for hps before applying the nerf. I'm going to choose the same an arbitrary hps value as before of 10khps. The amount of healing does affect the result.

dps = 10k + 1250
dps = 11.25kdps

TTL(nerf) = 300k/(11.25k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 2400s, or 40minutes(!)

% increase in TTL = 1000%

Again, this is a very simplified situation using values I've invented instead of real data, but I think it illustrates the point. When dps is close to the hps then very small increases, or decreases, in dps cause huge changes in the feel of the game. However dampening would also prevent this from happening, but dampening shouldn't be relied upon to make the game playable.

In real arena matches dps isn't constant; it fluctuates. The above shows how much the nerf affected a low constant dps (i.e. without cooldowns or procs). We know some comps are scoring kills in 6s or less (god comp, jungle, combat rogues, etc...) Lets see how much the nerf affected these situations.

TTL(prenerf) = 6s
(dps - hps) = 300000/6
(dps - hps) = 50k

And choosing an arbitrary hps value of 10khps...

TTL(nerf) = 300000/(60k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 6.82s
% increase in TTL = 13.6%

In this specific invented situation the 10% damage nerf only gave a fraction of a second of extra time to try and survive, which is less than a global.

The takeaway from this is that the nerf greatly affected situations that were already fine (constant damage pressure), and barely affected the situations that were out of control (burst during cooldowns for specific classes).

The safest way to blanket nerf burst is to increase health. Lets look at a 15% health increase (tldr it's going to increase the time for both situations by 15%)

TTL(burst) = 6s
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (50k)
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = 6.9s

% increase in TTL = 15%

TTL(constant dps) = 240s
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (1250)
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = 276s

% increase in TTL = 15%

However this causes an issue where % based heals are improved.

So what's the solution? Now that the 10% nerf has been reverted the game isn't really better, but a different kind of bad.

I have some suggestions:

1) Reduce the amount of guaranteed healing (instant heals, dps self healing, and abhorrent talents like ysera's gift and spirit bond)

2) Remove or change % health healing (warlock heals, conversion, and aforementioend ysera's gift and spirit bond)

These changes lower the amount of guaranteed healing making adjustments to overall dps less chaotic; giving more room for error when making balance changes. In cases where a class needs self healing as a survival tool then it should be counterable (casts), dispellable, or have a major dps tradeoff.

3) Adjust the burst of problem classes individually by nerfing burst cooldowns instead of making umbrella changes that affect every class and spec. Increase damage elsewhere to make the adjusted classes stay viable in PvE (this actually assures that a class still puts out decent pressure in pvp)

4) Finally some consideration should be given to changing dampening to some other mechanic that prevents matches from lasting too long. Much in the way that %dmg nerfs affect classes and comps different, so do %healing reduction during dampening. Also long drawn out matches that go into deep dampening aren't exciting.

Ok then. I actually find thinking about this stuff fun...


#4401734 You need to look at this and explain it to me.

Posted Nicholaes92 on 18 March 2015 - 04:17 AM

I was looking at porn and one thing led to another


#4402112 10% dmg nerf reverted

Posted Nahj on 18 March 2015 - 11:09 PM

sub dream's back


#4400926 PvP damage reduced by 10% in hotfix

Posted Thasta on 15 March 2015 - 11:04 PM

Arena is extremely frustrating for me after this hotfix. It feel almost impossible to get kills until like 10 minutes into the game where dampening is stacked high enough that damage starts to actually matter. I don't remember arena ever being this boring :mad:


#4399226 PvP damage reduced by 10% in hotfix

Posted Melbyz on 12 March 2015 - 01:52 AM

How come Blizzard always are spot on! This 10% dmg decrease will help me nuke through Saved by the light, jesus mama bring the gospel, Ooh loooord, Oohh yee!

Jokes-a-fucking-side, this game has two different types of classes, one with cooldowns and one with steady every global dmg. Instead of reworking horribly designed spells they add resilience giving cleaves the benefit to win by default in dampening.

Remove double trinkets from Monks, Dks, Locks.

Remove double freedom, bop and sac.

Make saved by the light either a 3 min cd or only useful for the paladin himself as a protection.

Remove Typhoon or make ferals have to specc Skull Bash.

Remove Sap from monks.

Increase the CD on monk cocoon or remove port.

Make cooldowns such as IBF, Enraged Regeneration not usuable while stunned, the purpose should be to pre-use.

Make hunters knock trap share CD with their Freezing Trap

Make Blink and Blazing Speed same tier so you can only have one.

Remove all speedincrease from any spell used as a gap closer; Heroic Leap, Displacers beast, Disengage etc.

Buff casters casted spells and remove abilities such as Ice Nova, Instant Mind Blast procs, 3x baseline starsurges.

Nerf all healers instant casts, and buff their casted spells, to interrupt a healers cast should be rewarding.

Decrease the damage absorbed by AMS by atleast 60%, disgusting cunt spell.

Remove glyphs such as Lightning Shield Glyph, if anything make Ghost Wolf more attractive as a defensive cd.

Bring back Pounce for ferals and make rake a normal fucking bleed, the way it works as a stun in incarnation is a fucking joke.

Make ferals not able to shapeshift roots.

Remove the speed from all bullshit abilities, the driveby kicks from mw monks and holy paladins are pathetic.

Remove all and any dmg increase from successfully interrupting a cast.

Make stance swapping on GCD.

A dk in blood presence should do close to negative damage.

I want a fast paced game, not people running in 200% speed waiting for dampening to kick in so one can oom the healers.


#4399554 PvP damage reduced by 10% in hotfix

Posted Vadren on 12 March 2015 - 01:49 PM

I wonder if Blizzard will figure out that the problem isn't how much damage classes do, it's how easy it is for them to do that damage. Too many classes require little to no setup to do their maximum burst, and more often than not those are also the classes that can't be peeled.

In TBC it was actually possible to peel for your healer using snares. Wouldn't that be a treat.


#4399978 WoW without personalities is nothing. RIP WoW 2015.

Posted Jim_Jim on 13 March 2015 - 11:54 AM

Quote

Vanilla forces players to interact/play together

This is entirely false. I play mostly alone during all Vanilla (I played SP before, and it was refused in 90% of PvE content), you can level a character alone, and even the PvP could be done alone. (When after 2 hours, you saw in the /2 the same groupe seeking for a last dps for Stratholme, and their answer was "yeeeessss but i prefer mage/rogue sorry", you were forced to PvP)

I had rank 10 in Vanilla by playing 2 weeks like a nolife in WSG.

The only good thing was the realm community, but you could clearly play without being forced to group with someone else.
My first MMO was Ryzom, and in this one, you were forced to play as a group, just to get your xp bar. And it was tank/heal/dps mandatory.

And about the post, i will never understand the impact of those "personalities" on YOUR feelings and appreciation of a game. I'm watching some streams sometimes, and even if i like watching them, they will never change my personnal opinion on how i appreciate the game. (Arenas, speaking with friends, transmog and pet collections)

When i will not have fun, i will just stop it, and not make a crying post about how the "game is shit and how people who still continue playing and having fun are dumb and mumumumu".

I could make a parallel with religion, but it will be questionable.


#4390350 resto druid op and easy

Posted Tsx on 20 February 2015 - 11:46 AM

View PostElorxo, on 19 February 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

implying current warrior playstyle is harder than any class in rmp's current playstyle, no not rmd, rmp
what an absolute joke
leave him be, he's been dickriding Jaime for ages what do you expect.


#4390062 resto druid op and easy

Posted HeyimJack on 19 February 2015 - 06:41 PM

View Postjaimex, on 19 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Posted ImagePosted Image


+21
Posted ImagePosted Image

Sorry what?


#4388918 Your Tournament Sucks.

Posted fresh_ on 17 February 2015 - 08:55 AM

Posted Image




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