Jump to content

inhume

Member Since 28 Dec 2007
Offline Last Active Today, 03:43 AM
*****

#4402392 Why the 10% damage changes make such a huge difference in gameplay.

Posted Vadren on 19 March 2015 - 04:25 PM

So after damage being nerfed by 10%, and then with it reverted, I feel like a lot of people are confused about why it makes such a huge difference in match duration and overall feel of arena... Maybe even Blizzard. Some people may expect that 10% less damage means it takes 10% longer to kill an opponent in arena, but this isn't the case.

TLDR: Blizzard doesn't always think enough about what they're doing and sometimes it shows. The 10% damage nerf can increase match duration by a lot, while still not fixing the burst issue of some classes.

Disclaimer: This is napkin math without any real data. It does nothing more than illustrate the kinds of problems umbrella changes in %damage can cause and doesn't prove that the hotfix did cause these sorts of issues (although anecdotal evidence would suggest that it did).

The following is a time to live (TTL) graph and it shows how long it takes a player to die given a specific amount of health, dps and healing. The basic formula is:

TTL = health/(damage per second - healing per second)

The following is a graph with Dps along the x axis and TTL on the y axis in seconds. I've chosen some arbitrary values for health (300k) and hps (10k).

Posted Image

It's clear from the graph that below 10kdps TTL is infinity, which should be obvious because if you do less damage than healing then you aren't killing anything. The major take away from this is when dps is very close to hps, then very small changes in the dps cause a very large change in TTL.

The following graph shows the same TTL curve with the 10% damage nerf (in green):

Posted Image

Lets compare some values from the two curves.

@15kdps

TTL(prenerf) = 60s
TTL(nerf) = 85.7s

% increase in TTL = 42.8%

That's a huge difference in the time it takes to kill someone in arena. Of course the values I've chosen are arbitrary and arena is more dynamic, so lets look at some more examples.

If we consider a simplified situation using the most popular ideal match duration (from a poll in another post) of 4min and calculate how the 10% damage nerf affected this ideal.

Here I'm calculating how much more dps than hps to get a 4minute match.

(dps - hps) = 300000/240
(dps - hps) = 1250

Since we don't arena in a vacuum where healers are afk and people die to auto attacks over 4min we need a value for hps before applying the nerf. I'm going to choose the same an arbitrary hps value as before of 10khps. The amount of healing does affect the result.

dps = 10k + 1250
dps = 11.25kdps

TTL(nerf) = 300k/(11.25k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 2400s, or 40minutes(!)

% increase in TTL = 1000%

Again, this is a very simplified situation using values I've invented instead of real data, but I think it illustrates the point. When dps is close to the hps then very small increases, or decreases, in dps cause huge changes in the feel of the game. However dampening would also prevent this from happening, but dampening shouldn't be relied upon to make the game playable.

In real arena matches dps isn't constant; it fluctuates. The above shows how much the nerf affected a low constant dps (i.e. without cooldowns or procs). We know some comps are scoring kills in 6s or less (god comp, jungle, combat rogues, etc...) Lets see how much the nerf affected these situations.

TTL(prenerf) = 6s
(dps - hps) = 300000/6
(dps - hps) = 50k

And choosing an arbitrary hps value of 10khps...

TTL(nerf) = 300000/(60k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 6.82s
% increase in TTL = 13.6%

In this specific invented situation the 10% damage nerf only gave a fraction of a second of extra time to try and survive, which is less than a global.

The takeaway from this is that the nerf greatly affected situations that were already fine (constant damage pressure), and barely affected the situations that were out of control (burst during cooldowns for specific classes).

The safest way to blanket nerf burst is to increase health. Lets look at a 15% health increase (tldr it's going to increase the time for both situations by 15%)

TTL(burst) = 6s
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (50k)
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = 6.9s

% increase in TTL = 15%

TTL(constant dps) = 240s
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (1250)
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = 276s

% increase in TTL = 15%

However this causes an issue where % based heals are improved.

So what's the solution? Now that the 10% nerf has been reverted the game isn't really better, but a different kind of bad.

I have some suggestions:

1) Reduce the amount of guaranteed healing (instant heals, dps self healing, and abhorrent talents like ysera's gift and spirit bond)

2) Remove or change % health healing (warlock heals, conversion, and aforementioend ysera's gift and spirit bond)

These changes lower the amount of guaranteed healing making adjustments to overall dps less chaotic; giving more room for error when making balance changes. In cases where a class needs self healing as a survival tool then it should be counterable (casts), dispellable, or have a major dps tradeoff.

3) Adjust the burst of problem classes individually by nerfing burst cooldowns instead of making umbrella changes that affect every class and spec. Increase damage elsewhere to make the adjusted classes stay viable in PvE (this actually assures that a class still puts out decent pressure in pvp)

4) Finally some consideration should be given to changing dampening to some other mechanic that prevents matches from lasting too long. Much in the way that %dmg nerfs affect classes and comps different, so do %healing reduction during dampening. Also long drawn out matches that go into deep dampening aren't exciting.

Ok then. I actually find thinking about this stuff fun...


#4400068 Battle Fatigue-like effects: Bad or Good?

Posted Fizion on 13 March 2015 - 04:11 PM

Battle fatigue on my eyes goes up to 60% after 10 secs of trying to read it (and I really want to read it, too).


#4399544 Feral and Hunter Nerfs Inc

Posted Nogahn on 12 March 2015 - 01:40 PM

hey smarts asses :) those nerfs are obviously a PALA JUNGLE NERF :)

1: reducing the rdcls incarnation dmg by a bit (on top of those 10% dmg reduction)

2: tranqshot nerf does mean you'd wanna play with a shaman or priest maybe (hpala/ret/mwmonk also got buffed by that change)

also: i agree with dilly... feels like blizz is forcing us in a single specc again (sv 100fokus = 2 tranqs / mm 120 = still 2 tranqs / bm during bw 120 = 4-5 tranq without a trap, 6-8 with a trap during bw)
but this way you see blizzard doesnt know shit... bm burst is kinda too high(5frenzy+crows/barrage = you can kill every minute; OP or OK it's up to you but w/e) they just made hunter even more retarded then before GJ BLIZZ

now all i have to do is dmg :) since purging isn't worth it at all


#4329588 State of arena

Posted Lolflay on 02 January 2015 - 11:20 PM

View PostROKMODE, on 02 January 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

melee cleave is always  the worst meta

I'd actually take melee cleaving over wizards anytime. 40 yard classes pussying out at max range, going in a few times if they think they can score a kill, then back to 40 yard tickling each other until CDs are back up ? Fuck off.


#4319127 Over dramatized thread/posts/complaints

Posted Forumz on 26 December 2014 - 09:54 PM

Wtf dude, AJ is all about emo bullshit.


#4211068 ESL ruined PVP Community more.

Posted Nmplol on 18 September 2014 - 05:32 AM

ESL just helped show the world the true colors of the highest WoW players. I've said it for a while now. WoW has the most toxic and most egotistical players in it. Without proper parenting or a good moral compass you end up with these people.

I suck at arena pvp, but I thoroughly enjoyed this.


#3897205 Why are top Rogues so lazy

Posted jones_ on 10 June 2013 - 06:26 AM

Inhume I miss you buddy


#3809103 Double/Triple PvP Trinket charge up idea

Posted Bigmoran on 21 November 2012 - 09:45 PM

Posted Image

Shamans already have a 2nd trinket on a 54 second CD ; {D

In all seriousness though, it's already difficult enough for balanced comps to score kills on comps like sPriest/Mage/Healer & sPriest/Warrior/Healer.

Giving those classes an extra break would make it even more difficult to chain CC and score kills.

Another suggestion might be giving classes a seperate PvP trinket on a different cooldown. One of them could be used for Fears/Polys while the other could be used for Stuns/Roots/Silences - similar to PvP trinkets Pre-BC.


#3806391 battle.net Championship

Posted Niezeremake on 17 November 2012 - 12:54 AM

View Postinhume, on 17 November 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Does anybody have a clue what level the battle.net championships will be played at? 85? 90?
90


#3687309 A Brief Concern

Posted Cyanerd on 17 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

No, some people follow Reedwise's threads really closely. I, for one, have been a long-time fan and that's a big reason I come to this website. He made a thread awhile ago about a certain team comp not being allowed in the NAO tournament. I don't know if he was trolling or not, but his arguments made sense and most people ignored them. The NAO people started posting and a guy listed as an NAO Organizer literally posted his PayPal balance, said he owned ArenaRating.com and told Reedwise to, "stay small."

And now they get to come in here and call people like me - a completely independent poster who meets the criteria to be a part of this community and share my opinion within it - a member of an, "insignificant group of people spreading lies"

What about me? How is this fair to me? What they are doing is against the TOS, whether or not it is him or not you and I both know that if they are friends, he must be seeing some of the money or getting carries from him or something. There's no way he just doesn't know, and there hasn't been any action taken!

I did not post that NAO was a cash grab; I posted that I agreed with the people who said it because every time you respond to public criticism you insult the community, ignore the arguments being made and then sa you're never going to post again. It is condescension and it is insulting.

Mugems said he owned ArenaRating, posted his PayPal balance, and told Reedwise to, "stay small." I just hope you don't get pulled over for drunk driving and tell the police that you got trolled into it, because I'm not sure that will make for a very sound argument.


#3679784 MoP Beta: Shadowstep now works on Friendly targets

Posted yarubi on 07 April 2012 - 10:24 AM

You shouldn't expect too much from someone who is saying restodruids are balanced.


#3676094 If you give a mouse a cookie..

Posted Esiwdeer on 02 April 2012 - 05:27 AM

Quote

Do you feel this is the same for RLS vs. these other comps?
yes, I feel RLS has one of the greatest margins for error out of any comp available right now. It's RMP with ten times the survivability and twenty times the amount of kill opportunities. At least a triple DPS has to be coordinated to win.


#3658541 Hunter burst is getting out of hand

Posted rageTG on 08 March 2012 - 02:31 AM

View PostBrocatski, on 08 March 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

I take that back you're not dumb, just retarded

Darn I wish I wasn't retarded.


#3177020 FireMageryGuru Spinning Scorches

Posted Anaxagoras on 11 April 2011 - 06:52 AM

Hail Junkies,
Here is the new Running Scorch Video.



Last week's April Fools' Day Video was a great success. Thanks for all the laughs.
Expect a vid next week!

Farewell,
Arena Master Battlemaster Gladiator Field Marshal Anaxasaurus of the Alliance
a.k.a. FireMageryGuru as seen on youtube


#3137706 Abub 14 Shadowplay + Spriest/rogue

Posted Abub on 22 March 2011 - 12:26 AM

http://warcraftmovie...w.php?id=182091

Hello again, wanted to start off by saying thanks for everyone who has voted for me in the top skilled 2011 contest and if you havent already voted well.... http://www.warcraftm...m/contest11.php
:D

Anyways, i got a new monitor for my bday which is a huuuuuge upgrade from my last one so I can fraps @ full resolution now and the quality of my movies will be increased a lot.

I had 500 gigs of footage i just trashed simply because i wanted to use some newer footage with my new monitor that i have gathered over the past week playing 2v2 with tosan and doing some lol fun 3v3.
I have never ran shadowplay ever so dont expect anything special.

btw dont expect any good teams because the warlocks mmr was LOL

My next video will showcase a comp i GUARANTEE you have never seen on this site and im pretty sure it will be the best thing ever, so keep a look out for that :P.




<