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#4404142 Four Years of Tears

Posted Dizzeeyo on 23 March 2015 - 08:42 PM

View PostNaraga, on 23 March 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

How is this what people ask for?
you realise they don't just randomly make up changes

every change they make is based on an interpretation of what people ask them for

its just that 99% of the time people are idiots and ask for completely the wrong things, because they misunderstand what the real issues with pvp / arenas are - then they get an interpretation of exactly what they asked for, and complain because its not what they expected

View PostAbidalzim, on 23 March 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

90 % of the changes made from wotlk  to WoD were at some point proposed on AJ by multiglads.
exactly

View PostXinowl, on 23 March 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

I lol'd so hard at this.. Thanks :D
i would have lol'd so hard, but realised he was talking about turbo struggling to kill people, so it suddenly wasn't funny :)


#4403822 damage so high

Posted Freshqtz on 23 March 2015 - 12:46 AM

Damage seems higher to you cuz all those dampening games probably inflicted real damage upon your brain thus making you delusional,  might wanna go see a doctor.


#4403796 damage so high

Posted Nicholaes92 on 23 March 2015 - 12:15 AM

I got £5 that says you're retarded.


#4402392 Why the 10% damage changes make such a huge difference in gameplay.

Posted Vadren on 19 March 2015 - 04:25 PM

So after damage being nerfed by 10%, and then with it reverted, I feel like a lot of people are confused about why it makes such a huge difference in match duration and overall feel of arena... Maybe even Blizzard. Some people may expect that 10% less damage means it takes 10% longer to kill an opponent in arena, but this isn't the case.

TLDR: Blizzard doesn't always think enough about what they're doing and sometimes it shows. The 10% damage nerf can increase match duration by a lot, while still not fixing the burst issue of some classes.

Disclaimer: This is napkin math without any real data. It does nothing more than illustrate the kinds of problems umbrella changes in %damage can cause and doesn't prove that the hotfix did cause these sorts of issues (although anecdotal evidence would suggest that it did).

The following is a time to live (TTL) graph and it shows how long it takes a player to die given a specific amount of health, dps and healing. The basic formula is:

TTL = health/(damage per second - healing per second)

The following is a graph with Dps along the x axis and TTL on the y axis in seconds. I've chosen some arbitrary values for health (300k) and hps (10k).

Posted Image

It's clear from the graph that below 10kdps TTL is infinity, which should be obvious because if you do less damage than healing then you aren't killing anything. The major take away from this is when dps is very close to hps, then very small changes in the dps cause a very large change in TTL.

The following graph shows the same TTL curve with the 10% damage nerf (in green):

Posted Image

Lets compare some values from the two curves.

@15kdps

TTL(prenerf) = 60s
TTL(nerf) = 85.7s

% increase in TTL = 42.8%

That's a huge difference in the time it takes to kill someone in arena. Of course the values I've chosen are arbitrary and arena is more dynamic, so lets look at some more examples.

If we consider a simplified situation using the most popular ideal match duration (from a poll in another post) of 4min and calculate how the 10% damage nerf affected this ideal.

Here I'm calculating how much more dps than hps to get a 4minute match.

(dps - hps) = 300000/240
(dps - hps) = 1250

Since we don't arena in a vacuum where healers are afk and people die to auto attacks over 4min we need a value for hps before applying the nerf. I'm going to choose the same an arbitrary hps value as before of 10khps. The amount of healing does affect the result.

dps = 10k + 1250
dps = 11.25kdps

TTL(nerf) = 300k/(11.25k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 2400s, or 40minutes(!)

% increase in TTL = 1000%

Again, this is a very simplified situation using values I've invented instead of real data, but I think it illustrates the point. When dps is close to the hps then very small increases, or decreases, in dps cause huge changes in the feel of the game. However dampening would also prevent this from happening, but dampening shouldn't be relied upon to make the game playable.

In real arena matches dps isn't constant; it fluctuates. The above shows how much the nerf affected a low constant dps (i.e. without cooldowns or procs). We know some comps are scoring kills in 6s or less (god comp, jungle, combat rogues, etc...) Lets see how much the nerf affected these situations.

TTL(prenerf) = 6s
(dps - hps) = 300000/6
(dps - hps) = 50k

And choosing an arbitrary hps value of 10khps...

TTL(nerf) = 300000/(60k*0.9 - 10k)
TTL(nerf) = 6.82s
% increase in TTL = 13.6%

In this specific invented situation the 10% damage nerf only gave a fraction of a second of extra time to try and survive, which is less than a global.

The takeaway from this is that the nerf greatly affected situations that were already fine (constant damage pressure), and barely affected the situations that were out of control (burst during cooldowns for specific classes).

The safest way to blanket nerf burst is to increase health. Lets look at a 15% health increase (tldr it's going to increase the time for both situations by 15%)

TTL(burst) = 6s
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (50k)
TTL(burst, with extra hp) = 6.9s

% increase in TTL = 15%

TTL(constant dps) = 240s
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = (300k * 1.15) / (1250)
TTL(constant, with extra hp) = 276s

% increase in TTL = 15%

However this causes an issue where % based heals are improved.

So what's the solution? Now that the 10% nerf has been reverted the game isn't really better, but a different kind of bad.

I have some suggestions:

1) Reduce the amount of guaranteed healing (instant heals, dps self healing, and abhorrent talents like ysera's gift and spirit bond)

2) Remove or change % health healing (warlock heals, conversion, and aforementioend ysera's gift and spirit bond)

These changes lower the amount of guaranteed healing making adjustments to overall dps less chaotic; giving more room for error when making balance changes. In cases where a class needs self healing as a survival tool then it should be counterable (casts), dispellable, or have a major dps tradeoff.

3) Adjust the burst of problem classes individually by nerfing burst cooldowns instead of making umbrella changes that affect every class and spec. Increase damage elsewhere to make the adjusted classes stay viable in PvE (this actually assures that a class still puts out decent pressure in pvp)

4) Finally some consideration should be given to changing dampening to some other mechanic that prevents matches from lasting too long. Much in the way that %dmg nerfs affect classes and comps different, so do %healing reduction during dampening. Also long drawn out matches that go into deep dampening aren't exciting.

Ok then. I actually find thinking about this stuff fun...


#4402028 This expansion so far

Posted Lolflay on 18 March 2015 - 08:57 PM

6.0 ( lvl 90 )

- oh ya, this seems like it might be a good xpack

6.0 ( lvl 100 )

- need to wait and see the situation @ full gear, this doesn't seem fun thus far

// full gear

- fuck this isn't fun at all, 10+ minute games, RMD, etc

6.1

- wow, this game feels fun again, who would've thought. Games end in 2-3 minutes, resto druids got nerfed, ferals and BMs hunters are retarded but nothing that few nerfs can't fix, healer diversity is becoming a thing, just nerf rogues and mages a bit and we're in for a very fun season

EDIT

NVM

PRAISE HOLINKA


#4401772 Least favorite class to fight vs (6.1 post-hunter/feral nerf)

Posted Revolol on 18 March 2015 - 08:28 AM

View PostChanimal, on 18 March 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

frostjaw polymorph

edit: forgot to mention flameglow blazing speed :)

Kick the poly....oh he's casting frostjaw....mass reflect?...oh he's casting poly again...now you have to sit 3x poly into frostjaw, glhf :)

Edit: although I do relish the times I actually get to do that. Most of the time I'm cheaped/bashed/cloned/novad/rooted somewhere I can't stop anything.


#4401674 Least favorite class to fight vs (6.1 post-hunter/feral nerf)

Posted Metaclassx on 17 March 2015 - 11:23 PM

I couldn't decide between hunter/combat rogue/enhance/ and mage.
They're all special levels of cancer to play against.
Mage because of never leaving CC.
Combat rogue because iu see it in arena and already know your healer is dead.
Enhance because you can't even do anything against it, and they are actually healers with infinite purge.
Hunter because I'm tired of randomly dying through CD's to crows/BW/barrage


#4400980 PvP damage reduced by 10% in hotfix

Posted Glink on 16 March 2015 - 04:09 AM

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening

Every game is dampening


#4400926 PvP damage reduced by 10% in hotfix

Posted Thasta on 15 March 2015 - 11:04 PM

Arena is extremely frustrating for me after this hotfix. It feel almost impossible to get kills until like 10 minutes into the game where dampening is stacked high enough that damage starts to actually matter. I don't remember arena ever being this boring :mad:


#4360869 Battle.net Account Link Now Required to Create Threads

Posted Marshmellow on 15 January 2015 - 04:56 PM

but how will I fix my marriage now?


#4323270 double frost dk

Posted Feliclandelo on 29 December 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostBraindance, on 29 December 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

  • When I was playing this game you were swimming in your father's testicles

  • I know the game much better than you because I got 100 IQ more than your entire ancestral tree combined

  • Fury tends to be more tanky? What does make fury more tanky? It has the exact same abilities as arms, and the exact same reductions
I know life is hard in your serbian village, milking cows all day and beating up 10 yold albanians, but you picked the wrong guy for that type of attitude.

Sit down.

That shows simply because if I move the bar to 2600 this is what you get:
  • Posted Image 17.7% (26)

  • Posted Image 12.9% (19)

  • Posted Image 12.2% (18)

  • Posted Image 11.6% (17)

  • Posted Image 9.5% (14)

  • Posted Image 7.5% (11)

  • Posted Image 7.5% (11)

  • Posted Image 6.8% (10)

  • Posted Image 5.4% (8)

  • Posted Image 4.8% (7)

  • Posted Image 4.1% (6)

Considering his sample is larger, and you barely grab enough players to even compare, i'd say he has a more valid point.

Stop being super retarded.

"If I move the limit up to 2700 you will clearly see only druids are the viable healers" cause fuck logic Braindance.


#4323276 double frost dk

Posted Forumz on 29 December 2014 - 12:17 PM

Guys if I move the limit to 3.5k there's not a single viable class.


#4261177 My Thoughts on MoP PvP and the direction of WoD

Posted Talbadar on 11 November 2014 - 06:21 AM

Hey everyone. With MoP coming to a close soon I'd like to talk about how I feel the expansion has been for PvP as a whole. This means I'll be going over the negatives and positives of as many areas of the game as possible.

Posted Image

Positives
Class Variety:
Class variety was at an all time high this expansion in all areas of PvP. At any given part of the 3 seasons we can say within reason that about 20 out of the 29 viable PvP specs could do well in arena when played by the right players. This is not to say they could get carried, but that the class had the potential to compete. This was certainly not the case in BC and Wrath. During Cata it became more apparent that Blizzard wanted more classes to be viable and they definitely followed through into MoP with this in mind.

Catch-up system: Not much has to be said here. The fact that you can show up a few weeks late with a character and still compete or better yet go from 0 gear to full gear on an alt at the end of a season is a world of difference from previous expansions. This improved the game so much for me and for many players who have alts that don't usually get geared before the end of a season.

Full PvP gear best in slot: After years and years of dealing with players using trinkets from raids that could increase their damage by 30% or proc extra attacks that hit for 20% of your health bar we finally got what we wanted. Blizzard introduced a system that made full PvP gear best in slot for almost any situation. As an arena enthusiast this made me quite happy.
Posted Image

Class balance:
It's hard to say this without a lot of negative feedback about certain ones, but class balance as a whole was really good by the end of the first season and onwards. As I mentioned earlier many classes were viable, but most of the time they were still very competitive anyway.

Let's take a look at some of the classes we saw at regionals and blizzcon this year. I am familiar with only the US teams for regionals, but we had a Ret, a Holy Priest, multiple Marksmanship Hunters, a Shadow Priest, a couple Elemental Shamans, a Boomkin, multiple Frost Mages, multiple Resto Shamans, multiple Affliction Warlocks, a Mistweaver Monk, a Subtlety Rogue, and a couple Resto Druids. At Blizzcon we saw a couple Windwalker Monks, a Fire Mage, and an Arms Warrior. That alone covers a lot of classes and specs.

On the live ladders we saw a lot of different specs doing well and I can only count 8 specs that did not reach a rating of 3000 by the end of the final season which are: Disc Priest, Fury Warrior, Frost DK, Arcane Mage, BM Hunter, Demo Warlock, Combat Rogue, and Assassination Rogue. For all I know some of those could have made it.

Successful arena maps: Blizzard finally added new arena maps that didn't need major revamping to become a solid part of the arena map pool. They also revamped Blade's Edge and Dalaran for the better though I sometimes do miss the old Dalaran against melee. They still need to work on some of the map balance, but really you can't hate on what they did during MoP with arena maps. I would like to see them add Ring of Valor back to the map pool. The current one is actually a great map it's just disabled due to bugs.
Posted ImagePosted Image

Merger of battlegroups:
The removal of set arena teams in combination with having a single player ladder and being able to queue with anyone you want has been HUGE for the game. You no longer have to sit on arena teams until the end of a season worrying about your rating. This has also decreased queue times and allows players to compare everyone at once which people definitely care about seeing.

Resilience, PvP Power, and Dampening scaling : While not everyone can say that they enjoyed having these stats around you have to commend Blizzard for getting the numbers right with every season. They had to manually adjust them with each season to make sure people weren't dying too fast, weren't healing too much, and ensure that games were actually coming to an end in a reasonable amount of time. They definitely could have done better with 2v2, though.

Streaming Influence: You may not like some of the streamers and you may have some that you love, but streaming has definitely made a positive impact on the game. A lot more players are better informed and many feel like they are part of something by being able to communicate with top players and other members of their arena community.
Posted Image

Holinka BOYS:
This man has done wonders for our community and you should be more than happy if you know what he's been doing while working for Blizzard. He's been in contact with a lot of the top players and constantly looks for feedback to relay to help out. He's also attended the LAN events to talk to players and meet them which I'm certain was not required of him. I've spoken with him quite a few times and the guy's got a good head on his shoulders so we should be happy we have him instead of the whatever the hell came before him.
Posted Image@holinka


Negatives
Reliance on gear:
A common theme for this expansion and Cataclysm was a heavy reliance on gear to be competitive. While everyone thinks PvP gear should be the best in PvP, the reliance on having the best gear available to even come close to competing is frustrating. There have been times where I am missing 3 or 4 items and it feels completely hopeless to try knowing other people just do so much more with those few pieces.

Too much CC / Too many defensives: This topic has been heavily covered by so many people so I'll be brief to not bore you. The arms race went way too far this expansion. Instead of Warrior Charges Mage-->Mage Frost Novas it's now: Charge-->Blink-->Heroic Leap-->Nova-->Intervene-->Pet Nova-->Reflect-->etc,etc. Everyone just had way too many things to deal with each other and way too many simple reactions when taking damage or wanting to deal damage.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Dampening in arena:
As both a tournament spectator and competitor I strongly believe that Dampening is a horrible concept for arena. This allowed for many things to happen. First of all teams could design their composition fully around winning because of Dampening and play around it. I don't think this was as relevant to ladders as it was at the actual tournaments. Both my team (ele, lock, druid) and the team that won this year (boomkin, lock, shaman) could easily attribute their success to its existence. It made for really boring starts to happen in a game where most of the action should be happening seconds into the match.

This also allowed Blizzard to balance the classes around dampening and not having to worry about if players could actually get a kill early on. Instead of fixing the issue they just took a shortcut around it by forcing games to end. I think having some type of ultimatum for games ending is fine, but the game should be balanced around players scoring kills before something like that is even necessary. On top of that it should be fair for both sides which sadly dampening is not. "The Crowd Chose You" is obviously not a good option either.
Posted Image

Caster dominance at higher levels:
This has happened at the end of a lot of expansions for WoW now and I think it would take a long discussion to figure out why this is the case, but as you all have seen the past 4 years have been more of a Wizzcon than anything else. Melee make things exciting and even against two casters it creates a much more dynamic matchup to both play and watch.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Reluctance to make small changes:
I've heard Blizzard's thoughts on this time and time again, but I still feel as if we're getting robbed out of a better experience. They don't want to make a lot of small changes because they don't think it will make a big enough impact and will only deter players from participating if the classes keep getting changed. When I look at a game like LoL that makes constant slight balance changes weekly I can only frown knowing it would be great for WoW PvP to follow suit. Changes like this one below make the game drastically different and makes some classes stay dead for very long while others get to overpowered states for entire seasons without change.
Posted Image

Lack of tournaments:
No regionals in 2013, a few tournaments hosted online (that were, as usual, attacked by DDoS), and just a few LANs? We didn't do much these past couple years. Tournaments create life in PvP. It gives events for people to look forward to and it gives drama for players to talk about. I heard something about MLG thinking about picking up WoW again for WoD, but rumors are rumors.

Healer Variety: Specifically in arena only 3 out of 6 specs (Mistweaver Monk, Resto Shaman, Resto Druid) were viable at the end of the expansion. I'd say we didn't do a good job of ensuring viability among them especially with Discipline being horrible for almost the entire expansion. One could argue that each spec was good at some point during the expansion, but that's simply not good enough especially after coming out of Shamanclysm.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


Posted Image

Moving forward into WoD
Ability Bloat:
There are so many things I am looking forward to in WoD and one of them is the removal of a ton of abilities and cooldowns that were just making the game worse. A lot of people won't agree initially, but let me explain why it's a good thing. There are tons of abilities for you to use to outplay your opponents and you want to be able to use them all and it makes the skill cap really high... sure that's great, but there are plenty of great games out there that use very few abilities to do things well. As long as there are mini games to play then there is plenty of room for player interactions to make a difference and for players to have fun. Mini games are things like: positioning battles, the interrupt game, forcing/saving trinkets and cooldowns, and battling for objectives. There's so much more to PvP than just having a bunch of crap to press.

Interrupt and CC changes: The number one change coming into WoD is one that's been needed for so god damn long. The removal of Improved Counterspell (the strongest CC in the game besides Fear) and Improved Spell Lock. There are other Silences and small CCs being removed, but this really does add to the fun for both the Mage/Locks and other players. You feel like you get more out of a spell when you use it well and previously all we see is blanket Counterspells and there's not much interaction required. The more interactions between players the more room there is to outplay. Don't forget the nerfs to Fear duration, CC cooldown, and the removal of PoM Sheep, NS Cyclone, and other forms of instant full CC.

Focus on PvP: From what I gather there's been a focus on making PvP fun for this expansion and with Holinka on board I'm having positive thoughts on PvP as a whole. I would love to see 2v2 make a comeback as a fun bracket that you can queue with your friends where games actually end quickly instead of the current stalemates that happen. With less abilities cluttering the game the mini games should become more and more relevant instead of the previous cooldown war. You have to expect that the expansion will start out with some bumps. Maybe damage overall will be too low, healing will be too high, or Mages will one shot people with Ice Nova, but we will get there guys!

Hope you enjoyed. Feel free to post your thoughts on both the positives and negatives of MoP as well as what you're expecting moving forward.


#4256953 Metro 2033 for free

Posted BurncrawHD on 08 November 2014 - 09:26 AM

Humble Bundle is giving out Metro 2033 for free for the next 9 hours

https://www.humblebu...92f15-103327309

nice while this dogshit patch is online.


#4252663 Why is there no solo rated option for 3v3 and rbg?

Posted DerpiousMaximus on 04 November 2014 - 02:34 PM

I always wondered this, since tbc it bothered me that it wasn't the case. Sure we had skirmish but in the end it is just a way to burn time nothing else.

I also cannot imagine that it would be hard for blizzard to implement a system just like dungeons where 1 healer and 2 dps are required to start so you avoid double healer or triple dps stacks. If im correct they have a system like this on the arena-tournament realm which works decently enough.

Even tough there is a lot of possible inbalances it would balance itself out since everyone is exposed to the same inbalances, of course you will see more viable classes higher up the ladder (but same thing happens in regular arena where more viable comps are higher up the ladder). But even if that is the case i still think it would be more fun to play for any kind of rating then to mindlessly spam skirmish.

I reckon that it would only boost arena participitation, currently a large amount of players especially new ones don't even try arenas. There is no easy way for them to get in a team  or find a teamates to start a new one. They just mindlessly spam dungeons or even LFR just because its a way for them to experience group content, but don't even dare to touch arena. With a solo rating people would be more tempted to try and play arena with them(if it was high), and it would be an easier way in then spamming chat channels and failing every single time because people lied about their ratings, just started, are boosts etc. etc. etc. And would be a fairer representation of their skill level (if you take the class and their rating into account)

You could argue that the toxic community and imbalance in comps don't allow for this kind of system, but in games like Dota and LoL with from my own experience as toxic communties there are also balance issues where people pick the hero they like to play over what is viable. However this stabalizes on higher ratings where people are more tempted to play to win.

the same goes for rbgs.




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