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#3912141 Whats the point of melee anymore?

Posted Braindance on 12 July 2013 - 05:08 AM

View PostThaya, on 12 July 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I like caster comps. Playing them, playing against them, mirrors, anything really. I've been around since the beginning and I've read thousands of opinions/posts about this, but I still can't see a single objective reason for those comps existence to be considered as something wrong. I'm addressing this specifically to posts that imply or hint at wizardcleaves as some kind of argument for "the game is broken"; simply disliking them is a different matter and sharing an opinion is fine.

I do think double melee comps are bad for the game and there's an objective reason for that. They're incredibly limited at the very core - it's all about both melees connecting damage on a single target long enough to drop it. There's simply not much else to do, and it's very unforgiving for both sides. They can win because the enemy team did a single kiting mistake, just as they can lose if they did a single mistake with their cooldowns or anti-kiting/gap-closing tools. This is by design, because melee is supposed to do more damage as they're primarily limited by their uptime on the target. When the amount of "key" decisions throughout an entire match that shape up into a victory or a defeat shrinks down to one, it is bad design by any standard. Wizard or caster/melee/healer comps don't have this.

Don't get me wrong, elemental shaman 100 to 0 kills are also a bad feature of the game, and so are hunter shenanigans. But those are balance issues, I am talking about overall design in this post.

Just in case, I've only played warlock since mid cataclysm. Priest, DK and enhancement shaman before that. I've played as much double melee and melee/caster/healer as I've played wizard comps.
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#3911421 Getting Sick of This

Posted stalebagel on 10 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

another awful thread by christymarie. 0/10, deleting the memory of this thread from my brains archives.

#3911472 Season 13 Glad Mount?

Posted Dreamwalkerx on 10 July 2013 - 10:40 PM

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#3911107 Blizzard Transactions

Posted Zilea on 10 July 2013 - 08:31 AM

I hope everyone is on board with this new idea for Blizzard (Like League of Legends!)

#3910964 [5.4] Rank 1 Titles (Top 0.1%)

Posted Holypalaswe on 10 July 2013 - 04:08 AM

Wish they could make rank1 titles accountwide.

No idea why rank1 pvp titles are characterbound while realmfirst titles and pve titles like the immortal are accountwide.

#3910870 Warrior PTR 5.4 Feedback

Posted Cottun on 10 July 2013 - 01:51 AM

To all you requesting the return of Throwdown: I'm not sure if you remember how often it got dodged or parried especially against rogues in Cataclysm. You had to use your charge stun to make sure that it landed against some targets that you weren't able to always be behind to avoid the dodge or parry. Shockwave not being able to be dodged or parried is one of the most useful things about it. Shockwave is reliable. Throwdown was not.

#3910494 Warrior PTR 5.4 Feedback

Posted Saberstrike on 09 July 2013 - 11:21 AM

Having to rely on rng debuff to do damage is bad design, plainly and simply. Hope they consider making colossus smash like inquisition in giving the warrior a buff rather than having it stick to target.

Or simply scrap the whole thing and just buff damage, we've been through armor penetration in wrath and it didn't work. No real clue why they keep sticking to the idea THEY THEMSELVES admitted wasn't good. ;x

Also, uncontrollable cleave breaking CC? Is that the way they go about addressing everyone's wish for less control? Could actually be fun if everyone had a tiny cleave baked into their main nuke to make positioning / spacial awareness a factor.

#3910429 Warrior PTR 5.4 Feedback

Posted ellipticcurve on 09 July 2013 - 08:57 AM

I will try to add more things as time goes on.. and I can understand everyone who wants a stance rework etc. I want it too but I think it is not realistic to expect such big changes in 5.4.

My feedback is based on the following basic thought: "Classes should be balanced for players on the same skill level." A #1 player facing a 2k rated team does not tell you anything about class and game balance. If the skill level of the players that are playing against each other is different, it skews any feeling for what is balanced and what not. All feedback is based on facing #1/glad players while playing with other #1/glad players.

EDIT: My impression after PTR Balance Testing
First of all, the queues in 2s were largely awful (5mins+ waiting time at 2.2k+ mmr). The queues in 3s were ok. We played 52 games as Disc/Warrior in 2s and I did 20 games as WMP (Warrior Mage Hpally).

I played the following spec: Juggernaut - Disrupting Shout/Piercing Howl - Second Wind/Enraged Regen - Shockwave - Safeguard - Storm bolt and for damage purposes against caster teams I chose Glyph of Rude Interruption.

In 2s we faced a ton of setups that had more selfheal. We had several 12-15 mins matches and all looked the following way:
- Warrior: 17k (2nd Wind) - Destro ~6 mio
- Warrior: 800k (Enraged Regeneration) - WWMonk ~3 mio
- Warrior: 55k (2nd Wind) - Ret/Feral ~6 mio each

While the destruction warlock had much more burst, I had the better consistent damage but I was clearly lacking burst outside of cooldowns. From a burst PoV the feral and wwmonk were much better (outside of 3 mins cd), somehow the wwmonk managed to get 90k+ Fists of Fury crits (measured in dstance). Overall it didnt feel that I can create much pressure as a warrior outside of my 3 mins burst cooldown - consistent damage is too easy to outheal, especially with the amount of offheal in this game. Even with enraged regeneration we don't have the same amount of offheal that other classes have. Which would be fine if we did more bursty damage or had more cc, but we have neither.

Even with the additional stun from storm bolt, shockwave felt mandatory. Because most other classes have more than one stun, we are basically forced to have it.

My overall feedback after those 2s games is pretty much the same as it is below: Somehow you can make it work and force cds, but it is a ton of work and in no comparison to what other classes can or have to do. To pressure a good disc you have to switch on the target that does not have a "double shield". If you do it, you switch often - and if you play that way Colossus Smash is a pain in the ... b/c it is rarely ready when you switch, unless you have rng luck. But even if you can make it work, it's simply not fun. Against disc/feral, ret/disc, wwmonk/disc, destro/rshaman, etc. you have 10+mins games until you finally have forced enough cds that something dies with your 3 mins burst.

In 3v3 we were very reliant on our dd-teammate. As a mage he had good burst, I had good sustained damage - it worked, somehow, but not really good. It did not feel as if the warrior is the driving force. I do not have roots, so I have to ask for a nova. I do not have good burst so I have to ask for his deep freeze and line up my cs with it, etc. Because of rng, lining up cs with deep is not always possible so it was difficult to score a kill. And pretty much impossible to score a kill against a team that turtles.

Overall it felt pretty much that we're lacking things like imp. hamstring, a cooldown on a short cd, etc.

Warrior Feedback

I cannot post in the Feedback thread so I have to do it here. On PTR I've played the following classes: wwmonk, affliction lock, frostmage, warrior, disc/holy/shadow priest, hpally and rdruid. I've played with and against warriors and played warrior myself. My impression is that most of these changes look good on the first glance but aren't that good after you've faced some decent teams. After playing PTR for quite a while now, here my feedback:


Our damage looks good on PvP on PTR as long as we’re able to hit a target while Colossus Smash is active. If you get randomly cc’ed or the target blinks away after applying CS, we’re pretty much screwed. IMO they should change it to:

“Slam causes an additional 10% damage for 10 sec after the warrior successfully applied Colossus Smash.”

It should be a buff on the warrior b/c often we get cc’ed for a few seconds or have to switch target, so it becomes utterly useless against a good team.

“Slam now deals 35% of damage dealt against the primary target to all other enemies within 2 yards"

It is a BIG Problem on PTR right now. If you cc a healer and fight close to a him, the best thing a DD can do: walk close to his healer and break the cc on him. It makes slam completely useless in these situations and easy to avoid warrior’s damage. Against teams that hug pillar and stay close together it’s basically impossible to use slam and cc someone. Instead Sweeping Strikes should be buffed for slam.

“Sweeping Strikes now causes melee attacks to strike an additional nearby target for 75% of the initial damage (up from 50%). The damage is increased by an additional X% for slam.

EDIT: They changed the above effect to: "Slam now deals 35% of damage dealt against the primary target to all other enemies within 2 yards while Sweeping Strikes is active, and causes an additional 10% damage to targets affected by the warrior’s Colossus Smash."

EDIT: People are relative clever when it comes to avoiding warrior damage, especially after the Angelic Feather Buff or our Slam AoE dmg thingy. I encountered a double mage team, reflected poly, other mage blinked to his mage - so couldnt use slam and my damage dropped. And even a disc priest can kite us with feathers now if shockwave/storm bolt is on cd. We cannot create pressure by ourself. We need the help of our team mates (they must root the disc or w/e).

And even in a 1v1 situation we cannot pressure a good disc who plays with Divine Insight, Feathers and From Darkness Comes Light - b/c he will either kite us or has 240k absorb every X sec with penance (shield => stop penance after first tick => shield again). A good disc sits at 80%+ HP against us in a duel without really using casts. We don't have a short burst cooldown, so he can line up his defensive cooldowns with our burst cooldowns and without them he isn't under any dangerous pressure. If he uses Glyph of Reflective Shield we die before he dies, just because of our own damage and his double shield. On PTR any other melee creates more pressure on a healer than we do. Our average damage might be comparable at times, but we haven't accounted things like: Necrotic strikes, Skull Bash Mana debuff, offensive purges, Spear Hand Strike silence, etc. Creating pressure is not only about having a good average damage. Most of these changes work in PvE but in PvP we're still lacking the "pressure" effect. I talked with Seven about this a few days ago, I think the Battle Fatique/MS Change was a big.. big.. nerf.

Warbringer Change

“Warbringer now roots the target for 4 seconds instead of stunning them for 3 seconds. The 50% reduction to movement speed snare effect for 8 seconds remains unchanged. Glyph of Blitz will now cause Warbringer to root an additional 2 nearby targets.”

The idea is good but it’s too situational because we’re missing the complete charge stun. Charge is often used to interrupt casts (offensively/defensively), you cannot do it with warbringer b/c it only roots but doesn’t stun. In addition to the root there should be a 1 sec charge stun, otherwise it will be rarely used in arena.

Enraged Regeneration

“Enraged Regeneration now instantly heals the warrior for 10% of their total health (up from 5%), and an additional 10% over 5 seconds (up from 5%).”
This is a really good change and makes it competitive with Second Wind and sometimes even better (against bursty setups). It helps a lot on PTR, especially against bursty setups that burst you through Second Wind within one or two globals.

Removal of Shield Requirements

“Shield Wall no longer requires a shield. If the Warrior does not have a shield equipped, it will show a visual of an equipped shield.”
“Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield. If the Warrior does not have a shield equipped, it will show a visual of an equipped shield.”

Good change overall. It gives us more possibilities to use both spells and makes it more reliable. (no more double dip on latency, doesn’t reset swing timer, etc)

Hamstring is no longer on a global cooldown.

This is a good change but it is not enough in my opinion. We need improved hamstring back. Especially b/c of some movement buffs like Angelic Feathers (60% => 80%), it seems to hardcounter our 50% slow from hamstring. You won’t be able to touch a priest or his teammates except you have a root from your teammate or a stun. You dont want to waste shockwave to be able to touch him, you need it to stunn his inner focus or you want to stunn him when he doesn't have a shield up, but this situation rarely happens because he can simply kite you.

Shattering Throw no longer costs rage.

Good change, there are no drawbacks from it.

PvE Trinkets, PvE Sets and the additional "Pressure Effect" other classes gain from it

EDIT: PvE Trinkets got Nerfed.

If we use PvE Trinkets our consistent damage goes up, but the problem is: other classes get the same effect. But that's not all: Other classes scale much better with the PvE Trinkets/Sets b/c of their current playstyle. A Mastery Buff makes a frostmage much more dangerous, b/c of his short "30 sec burst cooldown (deep freeze)". If the trinket procs and he deeps you, you have to trinket or use a defensive cooldown. Even a dispel on the deep often is barely noticable because he can still do ~150k Frostfire Bolts or 80-100k Icelances in Arena - and in 3v3 you have two dds running around. The same for an affliction warlock: If the mastery trinket procs, his dots create a crazy amount of damage. I played WLP with Craze a few days ago and he basically laughed about my pressure, because he had ~60k dot ticks with haunt up, on up to three targets. The amount of pressure other classes can create with these trinkets is in no way comparable to what we can do as a warrior atm, especially if you account for their cc/peel capabilities and our cc/ peels capabilities or their multi target pressure.

Even though these trinkets are lowered to ilvl 512 in arena and their proc chance is reduced, they are still too strong for many classes.

We are just not scary, even if we have the trinkets. There is no psychological effect that says: Be careful, he is a PvE geared warrior.

On PTR equipset macros are currently bugged and you lose hp when using them, the old equip macros are bugged the same way they are bugged on live. Even though one could argue that we don't need a shield after the spell reflection and shieldwall change anymore, we still need it in some special situations (e.g. you want to D-up before a kidney or before a rogue opener or w/e).

EDIT: Dot and Slow are now separated.
Druids can still shapeshift Bloodpath - the dot and slow should be separated. Also it feels as if it double dips on resilience.

The "One Shot Macro"
A problem with the current damage is already our well known "one shot macro". I've encountered ridiculous situations: If you play with with a str PvE Trinket and the 2 Set PvE Bonus, you can actually do too much damage (~200k slam crits in arena if you use everything at once). But other classes can do it basically at every trinket proc. In my opinion the duration of Recklessness, Skull Banner and Avatar should be halved but also the cd. We should not be able to stack Avatar and Recklessness. I think damage should be balanced so that cooldown stacking is not needed. If you have to stack cooldowns to score a kill our damage is either to low or we're doing something wrong. Stacking cooldowns to score a kill basically means, that blizzard could delete Avatar, Recklessness and Skull Banner to create one spell out of three - because right now, it is exactly used that way.

The Missing "Criticial Strike Chance" on Mortal Strike/Colossus Smash
On PTR I tried multiple gemming alternatives: full str, full crit, a mixture of both, full mastery, a mixture of all to get all socket boni. But without the full crit build I have encountered a serious problem: I am missing critical chance. In my opinion warrior damage always was dependend on his critical strike chance. If i go full crit, I sit at ~26-27% crit. To do decent damage we have to be enraged, have to have rage and hit a target with slam while colossus smash is up. In my opinion 26-27% crit chance with full crit gems is too low. In PvE you have buffs, etc. but these get purged/dispelled in PvP, so you cannot rely on the 5% crit buff from a mage. In my opinion we need these additional 5% crit baseline for MS and CS against other players. In PvP we do not have the option of constantly using Berserker Rage to get enraged on cooldown, because we need it to break fears, a gouge or w/e.

Additional Remarks

Overall our damage looks rather bad in 2v2 and 3v3 compared to other classes. We rarely can use the full uptime of Colossus Smash (get cc’ed, people blink/run away, use knockback, etc) – there are too many ways to counter it. Our damage looks good if we have full rage and are able to hit a target with Colossus Smash but when it is not possible it’s still weak compared to other classes (ferals, mages, locks, …). I think there are a few ad hoc changes that could be made to make us more viable on PTR:
  • Give us Bladestorm Baseline, buff its damage from 120% to 200%  (EDIT: bladestorm dmg got buffed on PTR, but outside of cds it's still more a utility spell than a dmg spell.) and remove the Disarm immunity. This would give us a short cooldown burst and some utility. Replace Bladestorm’s old place on the talent tree with a single target stun (short cd, maybe 25-30 sec). If we also had imp. Hamstring, the single target stun could be an alternative in certain situations to shockwave. We do not need a oneshot macro, we need more consistent damage and a short burst cooldown/some utility.
  • Lower the cooldown of spell reflection to 15 sec. Currently it feels that a good caster cleave has free rain on you. Before the spell reflection nerf, it felt as if you had some control over what hit you. Now (especially with the amount of instant spells) it doesn’t feel as if we have any control over it at all. Of course we have two interrupts (pummel/disrupting shout) and up to two stuns (shockwave/stormbolt), but only one of them helps us when we’re not in melee range. Spell reflection is easy to counter, so it’s rarely of any use against good caster teams (caster learned to juke it). If it gets juked, they have free rain on us for basically 50 seconds.
  • Currently there is no tax for hitting a warrior. We have go defensive stance most of the time (especially if both dds hit us) and lose damage. We need a rage buff. Reworking the rage/stance system is nothing that can be done within a few weeks but there can be done some number tweeking: Buff the rage gained from MS to 20 (up from 10), etc. An alternative would be to make the T16 2 Piece Bonus Baseline for Arms/Fury and make it a buff on the Warrior: After successfully using Colossus Smash you gain 2 additional rage from your Special Attacks for 10 seconds. Half rage gain, but double duration - with the current T16 Bonus you run into the same problems as with the current Colossus Smash - you get cc'ed etc and it doesnt fit the warrior playstyle in arena at all.
On PTR there is still no reason to choose a warrior for your team. Even in our classic setup WLD, choosing some other melee class would make it better.

EDIT: There is more to say, but I dont have the time right now. Edit will come back later. :D

#3910394 Battle Fatigue Stealth change?

Posted fant0m8 on 09 July 2013 - 07:18 AM

Thank fucking god. 240k spirit shells on every player on the opener was pure idiocy.

#3907641 Ughh Unholy is bloated

Posted Hofflerand on 03 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

I thought it'd be fun to Death Grip people so I rolled a DK. Holy shit Unholy is bloat city. I have no qualms about playing a pet class, in fact it's part of the charm of the spec, but why is Claw on the pet GCD? However much I consider the issue there's no clean way around it, which is dumb because the issue shouldn't exist.

Then there's Leap. Maybe this ability felt worthwhile when it could be used to eat Trap, but now it's mostly only worth its weight under Dark Transformation. Why doesn't Blizzard just combine this ability with Gnaw -- before Timmy stuns the target, he first uses a gap-closer. Leap-Gnaw would no longer take two GCD's, which makes sense considering Leap is an interrupt/gap-closer and those aren't supposed to. Maybe to compensate for the loss of the short-ass interrupt/root this Leap-Gnaw combo could work like Counterspell: if it catches the target's cast, he gets interrupted for 2-3 sec and might as well sit the stun. Maybe reduce the CD to 45 sec to split the difference (30 sec and 1 min).

Unholy Frenzy is dumb. Like Leap, it used to serve a larger purpose. Now I might as well macro it to when I pop Garg -- oh wait it randomly puts a DoT on me which could prove problematic when I get trained, and maybe just maybe someday I'll play with a hunter. The devs should either remove the damage and combine UF with Garg or perhaps make UF more interesting, more worthy of being its own ability.

This last one is a more minor complaint, but I don't like that Dark Sim costs runic power. It's kind of like when Mind Freeze and Kick used to have a resource cost -- what purpose did that truly serve? I can CoI or FS for a quick 20 RP and use Dark Sim during my very first GCD. Surely there are better ways to add skill to PvP than forcing players to sit on 20 RP for a reaction ability. Next patch IBF and Shattering Throw will no longer have a cost and imo Dark Sim deserves the same treatment.

Thanks for listening to my rant. If you disagree that this stuff is annoying as shit bloat and think it adds to the depth of the spec, feel free to tell me why.

p.s. Unless there's some PvE caveat I'm missing, I'd probably make Roiling Blood baseline and delete Pestilence. Blood Strike, Blood Boil, Pesti...they don't feel important enough on their own to each deserve to exist. This game is old and every expansion adds new abiltiies. On top of that arena players need focus macros, arena123 macros, teammate-specific macros...trimming the fat is long overdue.

I guess it's a good thing I decided to leave my hunter at 85 or I probably would have torn my hair out.

#3910367 Ranged Interrupt in 5.4

Posted amaixliu on 09 July 2013 - 05:23 AM

View Postqueeg, on 09 July 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

This is a good change. I believe every dps class should have an interrupt.
for pve yeah

disagree about pvp, this sort of thinking ("every x role should have ability y") is part of what made the game so overloaded with cc, cooldowns, and just generally bloating this xpac

#3909673 The World's True Rank One RBG Leader

Posted flannelsoff on 07 July 2013 - 08:11 PM

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You will never be safe bailamos,

#3909979 Whats the point of melee anymore?

Posted Okayenhance on 08 July 2013 - 04:12 PM

Ranged characters having mortal strike effects that are the same as melee MS effects is another terrible mistake imo.

#3909725 AJ warrior podcast

Posted Bigmoran on 07 July 2013 - 10:41 PM


#3909539 This is phucked up.

Posted Persephones on 07 July 2013 - 08:54 AM

You should gain 10% of your total cap per arena win. Having to win near 100 games on a new alt ~~