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Member Since 24 Jan 2009
Offline Last Active Jul 25 2015 08:20 PM

#4411794 Defenisves

Posted Voksen on 18 April 2015 - 09:54 PM

For me the problem is simple.  Consider for a moment two classes of (defensive) abilities.  For simplicity, I'm going to ignore a bunch of the middle ground utility escapes/snares/interrupts that can be used for misc. exceptions and scenarios to gain control, tempo, etc.

TANK -- raw dmg-reduction and/or hp gain.  basic i-win vs. dmg button.  can be slow or long, insta or over time, etc.  DMG means you tank dmg somehow or another.

BREAK -- basic i-win vs. cc button.  again it can be slow/long, work for some types vs. others, etc.  BREAK means you use a cooldown to get out of cc.  Can be used offensively or for utility, but mainly talking about a defensive context in terms of responding with healing or peeling.

The issue:

In the sense that both TANK or BREAK are used in arena, basically most classes have a large TANK/BREAK ratio.  This is problematic because:
  • It is much, much easier to "eat through" someone's BREAK capacity then their TANK capacity.
  • It is much, much easier to control 2/3 people all game then to threaten them with death all game.
Which yields the following metagame efforts/rewards:
  • If you swap targets a lot, you have to eat-through twice as many defensives (TANK as well as BREAK on multiple chars).
  • Thus, its WAY more efficient to train one person into the dirt with damage the entire game, slowly eat through their (e.g.3-4) TANK abilities, and blow cheap disposable CC on quickly eating through the other 2/3 peoples weaker (e.g. 1-2) BREAK reserves, which are small relative to TANK.
  • If you pick one target and force them to burn TANK while the others burn BREAK, you rapidly transition into a middle-game or endgame scenario where there is little in the way of counterplay, dynamic target swapping, or complex multitasking.
  • The hardest part of the game (or in some sense the part which contributes the most to winning) is coordinating 2 kinds of cc (e.g. mage with druid).
This ultimately contributes to a state of the game where everything is blown synchronously rather than asynchronously.  

Because the TANK/BREAK ratio is high, you produce game physics involving solo target training, less swapping, and more of these hold cds until all-in cc-rotation+burst windows become active.  This is synchronous play, whereas in e.g. TBC you had a lot of asynchronous play where people would stagger out (instead of stack) their abilities in order to do differential amounts of pressure to different targets at different times -- resulting in a different kind of outplay and win.

#3950075 5.4 Restoration Druids

Posted Bigmoran on 29 September 2013 - 11:21 PM

resto druids right now are in a position similar to s11

we arent shit

but comparably, we are out performed by other healers

as someone mentioned, there is a limited # of comps we can run right now. in order to break that paradigm, you would have to run with the top players of a specific class (as starship is doing atm in 3s with jah and pikaboo). basically, outside of running with the best possible players, you are forced to run with mage/spriest/warrior/warlock

no exceptions

#3913234 PvPTR 5.4 Frostmage Feedback

Posted Crawthz on 14 July 2013 - 10:54 AM


Aight, as requested on the PvPTR thread earlier, I will be giving my own feedback about Frostmages in 5.4. The opinions on this post are my own and I will try to cut down Frostmages into grasslevel in theory, so that it should be easy to read for any level of player.

A short about me, I am an enthusiast theorycrafter. In short, I love asking "What was the logic someone thought when making this", "What drove the person doing this" and "What does this affect in the whole big scheme".

For this post, I've done about 25-30h of PTR testing.

The Frostmage


-Great setup potential for damage
-Great on-demand burst
-Great control

-Rather squishy with only one real defensive cooldown
-Zero damage outside of on-demand burst (the 1 out of 10 games midgame proc fishing can    be good)
-No real damage if not set up at all

Alright, so.. Above I've cut down Frostmage into easy-to-recognize words and sentences and I believe we all can agree to. Currently in 5.3, Frostmages have the damage to kill a target who doesn't have defensive cooldowns left and is not getting peeled at all with the short cooldowns of Mages. This damage is easily seen and with defensive cooldowns or peeling, is easily stopped or completely negated. This is why every single meaningful damage Frostmage puts out has to be set up; which is done by controlling the enemy healer by either Poly/CS'ing him or going on him with Deep Freeze. Any little interrupt, pushback, stun; any control effect really will stop your team-mate from dying.
Playing comps like FMP gives you a massive control potential aswell; Deep into PoM RoF/Poly into CS into Nova/Rof/Poly and then your partner takes over for a while and your control is off from DR already.

Mages don't do any damage at all outside of the on-demand burst. Frostbolt casting is in most of the cases not worth it or impossible and you need to save your procs for damage later when you and your partner is ready to go. Some rare cases, you can sit midfield and spamcast Frostbolt and fish procs and can force alot of stuff yourself, but this should never happen in theory.

Mages are also very squishy but that is covered mostly with the mobility and control. But Mages are still very squishy and often when you see two classes connecting on to the mage even for a split second, that's Ice Block forced.

The Changes

I won't be going into Datamined info, only what is said on us.battle.net PTR Blogs.

  • Frost Bomb now deals 70% damage to players (up from 60%).
  • Living Bomb now deals 85% damage to players (up from 70%).
  • Nether Tempest now deals 85% damage to players (up from 70%).
  • Temporal Shield now also reduces damage taken by 15% while active in addition to existing effects.
  • Glyph of Blink now increases distance travelled with the Blink spell by 8 yards (up from 5 yards).
  • Glyph of Remove Curse now increases the damage dealt by 15% after successfully removing a curse (up from 10%).
  • Glyph of Spellsteal now heals the Mage for 5% of their maximum health after successfully stealing a spell (up from 3%).
  • Mastery: Frostburn has been redesigned. Fingers of Frost now increases the damage of Ice Lance by an additional 2%, Brain Freeze increases the damage of the instant cast Frostfire Bolt by 2%, and damage done by the Mage's Water Elemental is increased by 2%.

The effect of change

I will be covering only the Mastery change, because the rest are just small and marginal changes.

What Mastery change does to Frostmages?
  • Casting is yet again worthless, Frostbolt can be, without any exaggeration, removed from the bars. My Frostbolt does 25k crits on Deep on PTR. Ice Lance is around the same
  • Deep Freeze no longer increases Frostmages damage. Bursting into Deep is gone
  • On-Demand burst has been lowered to cover almost nothing, without any kind of compensation
I have said on Twitter to Holinka, that Frostmage is now a sad version of Elemental Shaman and the worst caster on PTR. Why did I choose exactly those words?
Because; procs are procs, they are RNG. There's two abilities that gives us FoF procs on-demand and those are Orb and Freeze. Bomb spells give us RNG Frostfire bolts. Frostbolt and Blizzard give us RNG FoF procs. So there's 1min CD and 24sec CD that gives us reliably procs and rest is just RNG.
What was the answer from Holinka to this?
"That's being terribly dramatic"

So, let me say this again. Frostmages have been built around on-demand damage and control. With this Mastery change, the on-demand damage has been taken away.

What does this mean then? Frostmage is now a procmachine, heavily relying on procs to have a chance to kill. A Frostmage is no longer in control of the damage he puts out. It can be double FoF and one Brainfreeze proc into double FoF and 5 Brainfreeze procs.

On live 5.3 currently, if all cooldowns and trinkets forced and no peeling is available, Deep + Orb + Alter Timed procs gives you almost guaranteed kill. Just a Deep wont be guaranteed, most of the times your target stays alive. Also, once your killtarget/healer is out of the control, the killwindow is shut down, and you have to start building the killwindow again.

On 5.4 PTR, my Deep + Orb + procs with Alter time cuts about 50% of someones HP. Even a Treantstun that I blink afterwards reduces the damage I do into Deep + CS to about 20%.

My opinions

My own thinking why this was changed is because of low-mid experienced players. Deep + Orb is a damn powerfull skill currently and inexperienced players have huge trouble surviving this. This is why you see twice a day streams with titles such as "1v2 mage" and those are multiglad/r1 level players who play at 1k-1.5k MMR against players who have no idea how to use defensive CDs or stop the damage.

My own opinion how to change the damage that Frostmages can dish out:

Mastery: Frostburn. Passive
Your Frostbolt, Magebomb spells, Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt gain Frostburn effect when casted on a Frozen target, increasing the damage done to the target by n%

What does this change you might ask? Well, for starters Frozen Orb lost it's Mastery completely, resulting in about 15k Orb crits maximum.
Secondly, compared to current 5.4 PTR Mastery, it still promotes casting and isn't such a "magekiller" gamechanging.
Also, Deep Freeze will remain as it is: A damage cooldown that gives Frostmages the required killwindow building gamestyle which is still the reason you might want to have a mage in the team.


I hope I've cleared out my opinion clearly and I do want to see a slight nerf to Frostmages damage, but it shouldn't be on the massive scale it currently is on PTR. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated and I encourage the discussion about Frostmages PTR state kept on one thread to keep the voices of the community in one place, so it's easier for Blizzard employees to read it (yes they've said they read Arena Junkies aswell)

#3883395 Mages the Overlords of 5.3

Posted Leeston on 02 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

They really should just remove mage bombs, replace that spot in the talent tree with something else.  Remove incanter's ward and that whole section of the talent tree and replace it with something else.  The mage level 90 talents are not in any way interesting at all, are annoying to use, and causing burst problems.

People complain about mage instant damage, but you have to remember how much the game has changed.  Instant damage is the norm now.  In order to go back to casted damage, they would have to remove tons of crowd control, gap closers, and some interrupts.  It would be a huge change for the game mid expansion and they've said it's something they most likely won't do in the middle of a patch cycle.

#3454305 The 'Damage Gradient', or: What I think is wrong with Frost PvP

Posted Watlok on 25 August 2011 - 05:26 PM

No permanent water elemental or a nerf to the pet freeze talent would completely murder mage viability without significant buffs elsewhere.  The problem with mages is how they are designed this expansion. There's no way to skirt around it and tweak any one thing.

-Frostbolts were damage.  They procced FoF, they benefit from FoF.   Ice Lance was not even important, to the point where you shouldn't even use ghost lance in WotLK during S8 unless you wouldn't be able to get another fb off or had to reposition.  It lowered your damage output. Frostbolts doubly important because their damage outside of shatters was identical to their damage inside of it.  FoF just upped crit chance.

-R1 frostbolt with winter's chill (stackable or not) offered debuff protection through variance. I say variance instead of RNG because a good healer would start dipselling before the poly debuff came on fairly often. Variance isn't inherently bad, rng like 90% cloak is because it offers no control to the players on either side.  With something like r1 frostbolt the mage was consciously applying more debuffs, and the healer was consciously removing or not removing those debuffs.  The outcome was not completely controlled, but players could impact the outcome at either phase and the results of the actions are very clear to anyone who understands even basic math.  

-Water elemental used as a burst cooldown or to seal the game.  It was important to summon it and nova immediately so you could get a second nova out of it (or a third if you speced that talent, which wasn't very common outside of tournaments.)

-Mage designed around maximizing fof procs and shattering in to every root you can get your hands on.  If FoF is up lance, if FoF is down shatter with BF, cast frostbolts whenever possible in to shatters. Casting outside of shatters isn't very rewarding or useful because your spells only do good damage (relative to cast time/how often they will be stopped or line of sighted) in shatters.  

-No dispel protection at all.  You either play with a class that has dispel protection (warlock), offers ghetto dispel protection through tons of debuffs (spriest, etc), or you play with a class that puts out obscene pressure on its own and burst people down during instant cc.

-Mage unable to stack haste because frostbolts aren't damage anymore, shatters are.  We all know a shatter with a frostbolt hurts a lot more, so why no haste?  Because shatters are limited by cooldowns not by your cast time or gcds.  This has even further negative effects on cc, which is harder to get off than the healer's already shorter gcd to remove something with a long cast time and shorter duration than ever. This effect snowballs with curse removal, where warlocks can spam two curses in 2s while you can remove one in 1.5 - tried to remove a hex lately vs lock/rsham?  

-Which brings us to permanent water elemental.  I'm surprised any outlast comp hasn't noticed that the elemental has 70k hp and a 3 minute cooldown.  You kill the water elemental and the mage is useless until it comes back up unless your team is completely incompetent.


The end result of this change is clear.  Mages do sort of subpar damage overall, but have obscene burst damage that can not be stopped.   Mage control is really hit or miss.  Mages peeling alone is pretty crap unless you are going to blanket or deep the healer while doing it, and even then they decided to give many classes from 8-40 seconds of "full retard" outs.  That is to say, outs that take no planning and can't be stopped by player skill.  New vanish, smoke bomb, most healer cooldowns, new IBF, glyphed AMS (obscene uptime), feral druids just going through rof like it isn't even there, things like that.  

Anyway, cata has tons of problems I see no need to single out mages as much as people do.  Blizzcon is not going to have a mage team win because they are not viable against dot teams played well.  If you want to look at something out of control in cata look at warlocks, feral druid mobility/cc, rogue damage (+smoke bomb), or the design of every class in existence for the expansion.   Mage is one of many flawed pieces, and I don't see them redesigning a class that is working near the end of the expansion.

People single out mages because their burst is too high and they are always paired with classes that are actually broken.  I'm not defending mage burst, but if you nerf mage burst then mage is no longer a viable class because that's all mages have going for them at this point.  They have a strong instant cc suite as well, but that alone can't get kills unless they overbuff warriors or something.

#3453851 Redesign Compendium

Posted yarubi on 25 August 2011 - 09:19 AM

Intimidating shout would be fine if shamans couldn't tremor it imho...

#3441850 Preview of Transmogrification

Posted quikkz on 17 August 2011 - 11:02 PM

don't care about vanity tbh, wish they'd spend time fixing actual issues

also more of blizz being lazy, letting you customize to old gear they've already created? /golfclap

#3443602 Feral druid after Unheeded nerf

Posted Mageic on 19 August 2011 - 01:16 AM

View Postmagikarpzlol, on 16 August 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

I think ferals are completely fine


Feral druids are fine zerk time/cd is the only thing that needs to be addressed. Instant clone is perfectly fine in the current state of the game.

#3414900 Bnet invitational US teams

Posted ganicklawl on 05 August 2011 - 03:39 PM

View PostNatusiaxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo, on 05 August 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

nor does the rest of the world
Everytime you post, you further prove how much of an idiot you are.

#3413866 Europe Invitational teams

Posted Fadezz^ on 04 August 2011 - 10:29 PM

go zunn! :D

#3413516 FMP vs Hunters

Posted Reesezpiecez on 04 August 2011 - 06:07 PM

Your feral and priest should literally be able to 2v3 any Hunter+priest team, hunters fucking explode vs ferals

#3412231 Would like a general opinion

Posted vollex on 03 August 2011 - 11:35 PM

every bracket sucks equally.

hope this helps

#3411833 I am a bringer of good news

Posted Tylan916 on 03 August 2011 - 08:33 PM

off to continue leveling my warlock

#3411201 Would like a general opinion

Posted cydial on 03 August 2011 - 02:36 PM

Why is this idiot Leyla not banned yet? At least Lopez is funny when he says stupid shit.


2s is actually the most skilled bracket, but it is the most imbalanced.

5s is the most balanced but the least skilled

3s is a mixture of crap.

#3410820 Would like a general opinion

Posted phishy on 03 August 2011 - 08:40 AM

more people. harder to notice imbalances. easier to carry. harder to coordinate.