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Member Since 30 Sep 2008
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#4425670 PvP concerns, Dmg/CC/Healing

Posted ProdeGaming on 17 May 2015 - 06:45 PM

Could healing or dmg or CC be overpowered in general? Let's assume that this is clear for most players that they can be.
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Let's pick just one, healing and check a few cases/concerns.
What makes healing overpowered?

Easily recognizable op healing could be, similar to the recently buffed Execution Sentence with Avenging Wrath. It's usually not the gameplay what players would like to see, the target getting healed from 10% back up to nearly full HP instantly.

Basically, talking about a heal that heals for a huge % of HP, often deemed op.

So possible question, does a heal need to heal for high % of HP to become op?
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This heal heals the warrior for only 2% HP, however, if the mage is doing this kind of dmg, this healing is very overpowered.

So a heal needs to heal for high % of HP to become op. No, it does not. It's enough if it's op relative to dmg.

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What else do players not like? Frequent concern is that classes are only good when CDs are up and then feel meh without. Let's stay with holy paladin, during Avenging Wrath, it's amazing but without it's meh.

The healing could look similar as in this example.
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Suggestion is often to reduce effectiveness of Avenging Wrath, so it's not so outstanding compared to the healing without it and compensate this nerf by buffing the regular heals.

So basically, what players are asking for is to not make that peak on the graph so high and to bring those no cd 'meh' heals up to make it a constant decent healing.

Essentially to bring the outstanding lines closer to the overall HPS.
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This is usually the case also when it comes to dmg classes, warriors would like to do good dmg without Avatar Recklessness too and with regular abilities, not just wait for Execute proc. Ferals usually would like bleed dmg get buffed and stuff like Ferocious Bite and Incarnation burst get nerfed etc.
Practically it's the same example graph, only that it's for dmg and not healing.

So the suggestion is that dmg and healing should get closer to the overall HPS and DPS.

What this means is that it could be said about the suggested classes that
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By this, the HPS and DPS of classes give a much better estimate of the classes actual strength.

Is that good? Surely it is, HPS and DPS is most likely relatively easy to balance. For example Hybrids can be much more balanced, because the HPS they gain from abilities can much more easily be evaluated and weighed as a performance gain. Basically when it comes to putting a class together, it can be evaluated much better how much the worth of a Shield Wall or a Gouge is. In fact when it comes to PvP, as soon as CC comes into play, the strength of CC is way easier calculated, as the loss your class' performance suffers is much more constant. While with very spiky dmg and healing, the effect of CC is much less certain and very varying.
So not only does it make the game more enjoyable, but also makes balancing way more convenient and easier, ultimately making the balance better. Because essentially, the closer dmg and healing gets to HPS and DPS, the more precisely they help decode any ability to see its worth, for example to solve the issue of 'this dmg class has this much healing, how much CC or defensive cd should I give the other dmg class to compete with that healing?'.

So now it's just a matter of for example healer HPS within their class roles being balanced, same for DPS.
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Once done, since it's at the beginning of the thread that healing can be op compared to just dmg alone, now HPS and DPS should get compared to each other.

What comparison even? Well it should be balanced for 3v3, so HPS should be about 2x as high as DPS.
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The lower ratio HPS has, the less CC healing needs, since DPS needs less aid to overcome healing.

Jump back to the live game, what is this ratio there? From an around 6.1 calculation, this ratio is about 3:1. That's 150% of the desired HPS. Since it should be around 2:1 to have just a decent amount of CC, 3:1 ratio requires much more CC to exist than originally wanted, especially against healers.

So it needs a fix before the player gameplay desires could happen.
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Assuming healers' HPS within their class roles are close equal 1:1 ratio, they shouldn't be individually changed to achieve the above. Instead, all of them should get the same reduction, so they keep their equal HPS.

A reduction that reduces all their healing by the same amount is Battle Fatigue, which however is a ruled out change by the players. So since the required change is ruled out, what players are asking for, more constant and less spiky dmg, less CC cannot be achieved, essentially impossibility.

Since the wishes cannot be achieved, but a fix to this ratio is desired and also since CC is already often bordering eternity, the only possible change to fix the issue is to not bring HPS down but bring DPS up. It is what's happening 6.2, for it's the only feasible change left to overcome the excess of healing as long as an equal effect as Battle Fatigue is off the table.

Should it be? No.

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Saladfork said:

Battle fatigue got so much hate because it is a lazy way to "fix" things. It treats healers as if they are all equal and furthers the homogenization even more. Sure it is easier for Blizzard to balance and easier for the player base to absorb, but it leads to discrepancies (usually shamans end up on top since their utility is so great, and their burst healing has always been strong).

I understand what you're saying, though. But I don't think battle fatigue is the *best* solution (it is a "solution"). I would rather have them provide nerfs to healing individually (on a class-by-class basis). And in a perfect world, I'd have them address mana (since mana really isn't an issue until late late dampening), and finally fine tune burst damage to match with the healing nerfs. Obviously these changes would have to be PvP specific (since the current state of healing is entirely due to PvE), and that may be a big road block in going forward since that is against Holinka's philosophy.
In a sense, Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is not -a- solution, it's -the only- way, looking at it as it cannot be skipped, is a required change, a tool to achieve something.

To make it maybe a bit more spectacular, could use a similar example to the current issue.

So the suggested issues are:
    • Too high burst
    • Too much CC
    • Healers die easily
    • However HPS being higher than DPS
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    Being unable to skip the use of Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is because healers' HPS is already balanced. So if you try to skip it and decrease each healers healing spells 1 by 1, in this case by monstrous percentages, there is gonna be a minimum % you've decreased every spell by. So since all their spells have been decreased by that %, it's the equal effect as Battle Fatigue, even tho the intent was to avoid it, essentially used it regardless.

    Other issue could be that there are some spells that are already weak and need no reduction.
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    So basically Battle Fatigue or an equal effect could potentially be more efficient change to fix the majority of, in this case healing issue.
    At the same time, the majority of the issue can get huge enough so that it's simply no longer feasible to be, cannot be replaced by a series of single spell changes.

    It may as well look very lazy to change so many spells all at at the same time, but in case changing 800 spells 1 by 1 is not feasible, then not using an overall reduction is going to prevent doing anything at all. Because can't go 1 by 1 but can't reduce all either, so cannot do anything.
    But if all spells do get reduced, then it's potentially going to be feasible to fix those that were already balanced, essentially be able to do more than if all spells didn't get reduced.

    These could be issues because Battle Fatigue or an equal effect may very well sound like a universal fix that makes PvP suddenly amazing. But it isn't, it's just a piece of a series of different changes to achieve something, but it cannot be skipped.

    Such series of different changes, following all healing reduction could be
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    #3375076 This vicious cycle.

    Posted Unappealing on 17 July 2011 - 06:01 PM

    Admittedly I'm a little bored at work, and also a little tired. But something needs to be said, for those aren't already on the same page.

    This thought has grilled me, and is the real reason i think anyone ever quits wow, pvpers anyways.
    We are part of a formula, we have been trained to accept a terrible system and it seems were all entirely oblivious to it.
    This thread is probably completely pointless as we all must be aware of this, but no one seems to talk about it anymore, we complain about specific stuff sure, but in general we just sit back and take it, its just the way it is and even though it is responsible for every other issue, we just close our eyes to it.

    Every change, every new addition, every removal and tweek, its all just bullshit. It's what we wait for, to keep us coming back, to fix the new imbalance they pointlessly put into the game, so that hey it might be balanced next patch, and again, and again, and again, over and over and over. You could argue pve is responsible for this, but its not, its simlpy an excuse for blizzard to continue to be what we mistake as laziness. It's not laziness, ladies and gentlemen, its their fucking business model.

    We get bored of one extremely long season, we complain endlessly about specific things over and over, a new patch here, and nerf there, and a new imbalance here. Over and over again. Sounds like im accusing blizzard of some giant conspiracy, but quite honestly at this point its pretty clear how this hamster wheel functions.

    They make "mistakes", then say "oops! we didn't intend for this terrible system to not work as intended", then they reel us back in with the off chance they might fix it at some point down the road - chances are after another $15 from all of us is again safely in their pockets. It is genuinely insane.

    As every season mellows out and takes for ever to finish we all just zombify and become use to it, we melt away brain cells endlessly doing the same thing accomplishing almost nothing, i mean in the end were suppose to be having fun, and dont get me wrong i do have fun when i arena with cool people, but honestly how can one sit back and even consider that its possible to have fun doing the same broken imbalnced garbage for 7 months in a row.

    The thing that gets me the most, is when they finally bring in a new season, we all battled away for our titles and our gear and wait so patiently to get the next best shit, then its finally available! We all gear up like crack-fiends addicted to bigger numbers. We all hit pretty hard as the season starts and people complain, then they just buff reseilence and health pools, so even though were doing more damage and everyones all excited for this refreshing change, NOTHING HAS CHANGED lol.

    Its depressing, this thread is depressing, the state of this game is depressing, but whats more depressing than anything is seeing all these quality people, all you guys, slave away as you get gouged by blizzard over and over again.

    Were just part of a vicious cycle, a business model, an endlessly perpetuating and cleverly designed money making machine. Blizzard really doesn't give a shit what you say or complain about - they have it all planned out, and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.

    Sad face.


    Posted Admoney on 17 June 2011 - 03:30 AM

    View Postsikemu, on 17 June 2011 - 03:28 AM, said:

    rep me if you don't give a fuck
    ^rep me if think this dude is gay

    #3261119 117,225 Crit

    Posted Behemothzz on 26 May 2011 - 04:41 AM

    buff shamans fs
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    #3177098 FireMageryGuru Spinning Scorches

    Posted twuz on 11 April 2011 - 07:46 AM

    360 Scorch meet...