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#4540569 Scripted PvP

Posted Shouri on 17 November 2015 - 07:09 PM

The biggest problem with "scripted pvp" is that almost all damage outside of setup for most of those comps is pretty meaningless. As what was stated earlier the game doesn't really have many decisions to make anymore and you pretty much know your entire game plan before the game starts. A good example of this is mages really only playing around the deep freeze set-up and then just delaying until it's back up.

Personally I think the biggest problem is lack of pressure, especially outside of cooldowns. This game has mainly turned into trading cooldown for cooldown and I think that's really stale game design. In wrath, and also somewhat in MoP, you could force cooldowns with just good swaps and decision making. Another important point is that pressure causes mistakes. People tend to panic under pressure being unable to think clearly and I find it hard to believe that many players nowadays would be able to go through their flowchart pvp while hovering at dangerously low health pools while knowing they have to do something about it. The main thing stopping pressure is just how tanky and self-sufficient too many classes are with dps class healing/damage reduction being way too high and the numerous amount of defensive cooldowns. It's at the point where swapping is usually bad as they'll have all their cooldowns up and the time wasted on trying to kill them will give your main target time to get all their cooldowns back. There's too much of a commitment in hitting a target.

Another problem is also the lack of casting, way too many classes run around spamming instants. Specifically for healers, things like genesis and riptide/unleash having two charges is pretty bad for the game. Deep freeze into polymorph is acceptable but I think it's over the top when they have frost jaw/ring of frost.

Overall, and probably most importantly, the game is just not really that fun anymore for a lot of people. In terms of class balance this expansion has been pretty decent but other than that I can't say I like this expansion more than the others. The three top comps(in my opinion) RMD, turbo, and god comp are all extremely unfun to play against for many of the reasons stated above.

#4536390 Blog: WoD PvP Flaws

Posted Mageic on 09 November 2015 - 02:36 AM

So I wrote a blog that highlights some of the current flaws in WoW pvp. Let me know what you think.


#4469162 balance is not the main problem with arena

Posted stalebagel on 07 August 2015 - 01:17 AM

I think most of us here have had our expectations destroyed by blizzard one too many times to expect anything but mediocrity in this upcoming expansion (which is partially our fault but I’ll get to that in a second) but something needs to be said for the people that mistake separate PvP and PvE talents for better arena.  This might come as a shock to some people but WoW PvP has never been balanced and never will be, not during the golden age of Nahj’s season 8 RMP mirrors, certainly not during season 5’s unkillable juggernaut death knight saga and not even during the plethora of comp diversity that was season 15.  The main problem with this game is that over the course of years the adjustments to classes, specifically the pruning, have led to classes losing their uniqueness and complexity which ultimately led to the painfully scripted PvP we know today.

Arena was perfectly fine when only a few compositions were viable because each composition was strikingly unlike the other even when the difference was something as small as a healer variant.  Class distinction has been burned at the stake by the developers for more comp diversity and balance, which are frankly just red herrings that the community has cried for for too long.

View PostNadagast, on 30 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

Things that make me sad:

Mages are Hunters
Hunters are Hunters

All healers are Paladins

Everyone can do everything
Damage is gated by cooldown and secondary resource rather than position and cast time
Too many defensives
Healing too strong
Mortal strike too weak
Everyone can do everything
Nobody has any unique tools anymore

TL;DR I challenge blizzard to make the game fun again, not balanced

#4447334 Should we take the middle road with the dispel system?

Posted Lolflay on 04 July 2015 - 01:52 PM

TL;DR: you had 4 categories : [ Max offensive / offensive / defensive / max defensive ], each healer represented one of those categories.

Druids were picked because they were the defensive healer. They were hard to counterspell ( didn't cast almost anything, hard to control as casters ), immune to polymorphs ( counters mages ), were mobile ( counter melee ), and had a healing mechanic that persisted through CC ( hots ). Their weaknesses were magic debuffs on themselves and their team ( no dispel ), hard swaps ( could keep blooms on one target ), lack of "OH SHIT" cooldowns ( besides one Nature Swiftness->Healing Touch on a 3 min cooldown ).

Shamans were picked because they were the offensive healer. They had by far the strongest control tools against enemy team, countered defensive debuffs ( Purge removing 2x buffs ), had Totem mechanic that countered a lot of popular things ( Tremor against fear, Grounding against spells, Cleansing against poison/diseases or w/e, had Bloodlust ( insane DPS and HPS increase for their team ), generally were hard to train down back then ( insane amounts of armor + Earth shield, they only really died versus really persistent melee cleaves that their partners failed to properly peel against ), and they also had insanely strong healing that was reliant mostly on mana - as long as they had mana, nothing died.

Paladins were picked because they were the max defensive healer - if you had a comp that had all the tools and pressure they need to land kills on their own, and just needed a healer that could keep them alive, stay at 40 yards, be hard to kill, keep them free of shit - Paladin was their man. They had super strong healing coupled with easy mechanics to dish those heals out, they were super hard to kill ( outside of a good RMP ), had Freedom/Sacrifice/BoP/Bubble/Aura/etc to counter enemy cooldowns ( same situation as today ), they offered the most defense they possibly could.

Priests were picked as a max offensive healer. Unlike other 3 healers, Priest games rarely lasted ultra long, and they always focused on just keeping the team as offensive as possible - Fearbombing 3 people, dispelling the kill target, announcing the switch to that target, DPSing together with their team and doing 1/3 or 1/2 of the DPS their partners are doing, being able to dispel both enemies and their team ( 2 (de)buffs per cast ), being able to Manaburn enemy healers/DPS to cause pressure, etc.

And today ?

Hmm, Paladins heal more than Shamans do atm. Oh well, time to play Paladin. Oh look, Paladin's "big heal spell" is same cast time as Shaman "big heal spell". Oh look, Paladin "instant cast heal" is same shit as Shaman "instant cast heal". Oh look, I'm doing better as Paladin than as Shaman simply because both healers are almost the same, so if one healer is more OP than the other, I'll do ten times better on the OP one even though I mained the weak one !

#4447337 Should we take the middle road with the dispel system?

Posted Lolflay on 04 July 2015 - 01:54 PM

Homogenization is fucking retarded and boring. I'd rather be someone's bitch in a interesting and fun game with shitloads of different mechanics, than be someone's equal in a game where everything and everyone is the same.

Fuck you Blizzard

#4258438 True Blizzcon Winner = Dampening

Posted Voksen on 09 November 2014 - 12:58 AM

View PostCreamo, on 08 November 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

Let's get rid of dampening and go back to 45 minute MLS mirrors guys

There are actual solutions that wouldn't take us back to that.

Take away casts, non obvious cc chains, mana burns, drains, dispels, mana/energy management being a thing, etc....and you're down to repeated, scripted cycles of burst+cc.  The game got made dumb and one-dimensional after wotlk.  Without any kind of real push/pull complexity and giving every class pretty much every kind of ability, of course you're going to have a metagame which shortcuts to comps that tend to win in the opener, comps that cheese 45 minute games, or comps that win based on rng procs, pathing, crits, etc.

Dampening was a bandaid for the 45 minute turtles, which themsleves were a byproduct of making the game more accessible to console players and shitty little add kids.

#4116452 2300+ demo lock arenas

Posted Eviaax on 09 May 2014 - 01:12 PM

Ok so this is my first youtube video with actual content. I know my video editing blows but here are some games as hls around 2300 mmr as demonology.


#4111685 The Most Overpowered Ability in Game

Posted ROKMODE on 01 May 2014 - 05:45 AM

View PostNadagast, on 30 April 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

Yo Different classes are different, and that's a good thing.  
This is the most universally applicable post on this entire forum
Everyone, please read what professor nadagast has written here. I get really tired of people comparing their class tools like a bunch of whiny faggots(edgy language, please don't infract me diziet).

#4104069 Cyclone and Fear now share DR in WoD

Posted Lolflay on 19 April 2014 - 05:09 PM

Correct actually, forgot that this means that Clone and Blind will share DRs yet again, that means even more comps where druids will be fucked.

It's just fucking hilarious that all of the sudden they decided to nerf Druid synergy with most of the classes they want to play with, rofl.

Priests have always brought the offensive playstyle + dmg to the team

Shamans have always brought insanely strong healing and utility to the team, and were oftentimes #1 choice for the prolonged game playstyle as they're consistent during the whole match

Paladins have always brought insanely strong cooldowns during which nothing can die, and were always used for rushdown comps

Monks apparently bring really solid safety factor, as they're pointless to swap to, and insanely strong healing output, they rival a shaman with their consistency

Druids always brought CC and decent healing - with CC part gone, nobody in their right mind would want to play with a druid over a monk or a shaman.

What Nadagast said is completely true, there needs to exist a clear diversity and purpose amongst healers, this homogenization bullshit is getting way out of control.

#4103634 Cyclone and Fear now share DR in WoD

Posted Capstone on 19 April 2014 - 02:41 AM

i like it

i think the way cyclone has worked with fear in cases of wizards has been extremely powerful at almost no risk. in most cases where wizards grow extremely powerful defensively and still have offensive ability based on control (s8 MLD, early s12 god comp, LSD today) it's usually always based on the idea that whenever anyone isn't immune to either fear or cyclone, you can just throw it at them and it's good. cyclone is undispellable, which makes it extremely easy to cross with, doesn't remove dots or heal, so there's no downside for putting it on someone, and it blocks incoming healing, so even a low target can be cycloned while you wait to get something on someone else. the same is true for fear, except it's dispellable (kind of with UA) and the target takes damage with it on. it's worth restating that it doesn't matter if these comps (today, LSD) are good or not - it's about how the powerful the CC is relative to how hard it is to set up and how it affects the other team's ability to play the game, which are both major concerns with cyclone in its current implementation

wizards having cc chains that punish a team for an extremely long period of time for a single mistake have been an issue with the game since MLD became strong in wrath, and i believe that two spammable CCs that have little to no downside are a culprit. there are other ways to fix this, like making cyclone wipe dots or heal the target it hits, but this is a more intuitive, less intrusive way of doing it. cyclone was previously on DR with blind and was changed to accomodate the state of the game, and it was a change for the better given the strength of priest/rogue at the time.

this change also presumably nerfs the amount of instant, consecutive CC that RMP/RMD have on a single target. maybe encourages using blind or cyclone on dps instead of (sometimes) exclusively for the healer. there's a lot of stuff i don't like about WoD, but if we can reduce the amount of CC available to wizards, and add more strategy to the way it has to be used, i'm an advocate

#4083070 glonglon Appreciation Thread

Posted Hackattack3 on 19 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for taking the time to put these guides together.  They will serve as a great reference for new players, returning players, and casual players to keep up to date with the current pvp meta.  

Much thanks for all your contributions to the community.

#4081999 AAJCI: Week 1 - Discussion

Posted Capstone on 17 March 2014 - 07:15 PM

real questions that we would all love to see a blizzard representative respond to instead of random balance changes

1. is the lack of competitive atmosphere in blizzcon, the only LAN event in WoW left, due to disinterest or incompetence? the last tournament was held without regionals and was held in a patch other than the one the teams qualified in, where the best NA team that came out a. didn't have to run the gauntlet of other NA teams in an invitational and b. won the lottery of the team that transferred over to the next patch so much so that they didn't drop a single map to any other team. the tournament before that was held with teams that did not qualify in the same expansion that they played in. this means that everyone was playing a game in its most primitive, poorly balanced state possible, and the competition was based on which classes were good in the madness that was 5.0, despite qualifying in another expansion

2. blizzard put new arenas in this expansion, which was good. stairs were added to blade's edge and dalaran. these are things that the pvp community has by and large requested for a long time. can we expect to see more new arenas? an arena veto system (which is already implemented for battlegrounds)? how much time, relative to creating an environment as massive as, say, ulduar (tuning all new bosses, vehicles, item stats, models of new items and bosses, etc) does it take to create an arena (room with 2-4 pillars)?

3. there are always balance whines about what's overpowered and what's not, which class is easy and which isn't, etc., and i usually hate them - previously, classes have had marginally different difficulties and pretty standard viability. this is not the case in mists of pandaria. many players who play the game for arena are picking up specific classes (i am looking at you, hunter and elemental shaman) specifically for use in arena and ease to learn and having immediate success comparable to or better than classes they have played for several years. these classes are undeniably simplistic relative to others and disproportionately effective at what they do for the amount of effort required to pick them up. i wrote a post here about my immediate transition to and success with hunter, in which i received 2400 rating on the first day of arena, and 2500 in under 100 games. i believe veev chronicled a similar success story in season 13 live on twitch.tv. my question is this: is this by design? are these classes designed like this so that anyone can have success in arena, or is it just a massive oversight that the amount of work required to be passable as one of these classes is so low relative to others (this is truly, in my mind, a problem that did not exist in previous expansions)?

4. it seems like the number of titles rewarded relative to the playerbase has increased based on the way that eligible players are calculated in the new ladder system. is this intentional? if not, is the criteria for rank 1 and gladiator titles going to change?

5. it's my understanding that MLG is open to possibly bringing WoW back into the circuit for a season. i know one of the biggest obstacles with SC2, a well established blizzard game with a lot of history that struggled to stay in MLG was obtaining blizzard's license (the tournament host cannot do many things without first obtaining a license to host the tournament from blizzard). at some point, MLG dropped SC2 temporarily and cited the license as one of the reasons. first, is WoW subject to the same licensing agreement? second, if we're talking about revitalizing the tournament scene, would blizzard be open to letting a large tournament structure like MLG host WoW without obstacles to give it at least one shot at revival?

6. is the idea of TotG totally scrapped? is there any hope of getting any in-game tournament system in WoD (warcraft 3 had one on battlenet 10 years ago)? if it is scrapped, what about the other titles and rewards that were going to come with TotG to create an incentive to play arena?

7. why do rated battlegrounds offer a higher cap than arena? do people interested in rbgs inherently deserve more points every week? if the idea is to promote people playing both, why not balance the cap so that your total cap is based on both your combined arena AND rated battleground rating?

8. gladiator mounts used to reward the character with 310% riding skill, and they don't anymore. if i get gladiator on my alt, i can't even ride the mount unless i buy 280%, and even then i don't get bumped to 310%. is this intentional? if so, what made blizzard change their decision?

9. is the 8 second dispel mechanic staying?

#4081708 AAJCI: Week 1 - Discussion

Posted Regent on 17 March 2014 - 09:07 AM

I guess my question would be about hiring a PvP community manager type person.

While it is cool that Holinka (and formerly GC) did talk to people on twitter, I think the game could really benifit from someone who's sole job it would be to support the community. Patrol the WoW official PvP forums, have accounts on the popular fansites and gather information from them. Work on things like getting special ingame titles for tournament wins. Working to setup tournaments, and help the community setup ones. Being the liaison between the players and the devs.

If memory serves me right, they were actually looking for someone for this position at one point, but I guess it never went through. I really think it should be someone who has at least a decent past with Arena though and knows the community fansites/etc (Blizzard has a weird tendency to put people in positions they have no experience with eg. Jay Wilson)

Also, as a side note, I really think health pools shouldn't have been normalized. It kind of ruins the fantasy experience when heavy plate wearing warriors and cloth wearing mages have the same health and armor. I really want the game to go back to having melee be tanky but maybe less damage and ranged being really squishy but good damage. This is painfully evident in RBGs where many times the ranged people aren't worth attacking since they are tankier than the melee.

I also want less CC breaks, but more things to avoid it. Old tremor totem, deathing polys, saccing CC, etc. Any chance of that coming back?

#4081306 AAJCI: Week 1 - Discussion

Posted Regent on 16 March 2014 - 08:29 PM

EDIT: VOTING HAS BEGUN - http://www.arenajunk...g/#entry4083280

Hello, and welcome to the first trial run of "An Arena Junkies Cooperative Initiative" (also known as AAJCI) outlined here:


This is a serious thread where we post concerns about the current state of the game, and suggestions for the future.

To participate, simply post your argument in this thread (hopefully backed by statistics or strong logic). You are allowed to offer additions or discuss ideas posted, but they must be well thought and more than one line.

This thread will be heavily moderated, and will be locked midweek in preparation for the voting thread. Feel free to go through the thread and rep any posts you agree with, as it will factor into them being chosen to be voted on.

This is a really good opportunity to get our concerns voiced, so lets try to keep it civil.


#4079932 PvP Live Tourny Disucssion thread

Posted wodeta on 15 March 2014 - 02:08 AM

View PostRegent, on 15 March 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:


Probably running this, but even so they were super questionable.

I don't need sham rage outside of orbs, so everytime they used orbs, i used it also because i needed mana. i was oom the entire match from the kitting and purge spam.

And i also don't see how that was the problem since my hunter was dying both games.

We lost because they had pressure the entire match, so we couldn't go in and get traps and from there it's an snow ball and we probably should've targeted lock more because blazzing speed+gate+blink.