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RedbowwMember Since 28 Jul 2008
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Posted Buglamp on 20 May 2011 - 04:59 AM
Posted ameego on 08 May 2011 - 05:11 AM
- 2 pts - Discussing or posting links to illegal torrents.
- 2 pts - Posting links to or encouraging illegal activities.
1) we are not discussing illegal torrents, we are discussing an invitation to Demonoid which hosts legal content as well.
2) we are not encouraging illegal activities
3) fuck you
Posted Esiwdeer on 07 May 2011 - 10:13 AM
This thread has been edited from its original state. The goal here is to provide suggestions/comparisons in a strictly arena setting by drawing parallels between us and the classes most similar to us, other ranged damage dealers. This is derived from playing all three classes at 2600 rating.
This isn't meant to just be me complaining, but it may come off that way. Here it goes!
So, the first thing is.. Focus functionality as a Mage - it's slightly harder as Warlock but still much improved: facing requirements. I don't know if it's just the way I think about it but it seems so much easier to just know you're in line of sight of your focus and then pressing a macro to stopcasting and Counterspell him, as opposed to jumping and turning to Silencing Shot - the same for Deep Freeze vs. Scatter Shot.. the facing requirement, maximum range etc. really just makes the ability harder to use even if the overall effect is similar in power.
Would removing the facing requirements and making the ranges comparable for abilities like the ones I already mentioned be a change you guys would like to see? It didn't seem like a big deal to me until I realized how much more I jump than other players of my caliber who play a different class. Pretty funny.
The second REALLY noticeable difference is procs. Mage first off, as a Mage your procs proc other procs that proc procs - Fingers of Frost, Brainfreeze, Improved Fireblast. All of them are so much more often than Resistance is Futile and Master Marksman - not to mention what you actually get for them is more.. entwined with the purpose of your class. Mage procs are both exponentially more reliable and exponentially more customizable; you choose between using them for more burst or more control or both when you get a little lucky. As Warlock, Nightfall helps you keep your enemies debuffed and taking more damage, not to mention it just does more damage in general, happens more often and is a reward for keeping Corruption up as much as possible.. which is predictable, and easy.
My point is reliability. What I was thinking was:
Concussive Shot should have .05 sec GCD, or no GCD.
Mastery is completely wrong. Should be something entirely different as in Haste or flat +damage. Autoshot doesn't generate anything so comparing this literally to Arms Warrior mastery shows a very obvious deficit
MMM is vastly underpowered and random when compared to Nightfall, Eradication, Brainfreeze or even Fingers of Frost.
Scatter/Silencing Shot should have no facing requirement and a 35/40 yard range respectively, compared to Counterspell, Deepfreeze, Curse of Tongues, Spell Lock or even Polymorph and Fear. These abilities have too long of a cooldown, and are far less powerful that the ones listed and yet have more limitations.
Steady Shot and Cobra Shot merged like Frostfire Bolt to whatever will do the most damage vs. armor or resistance, probably going to have to be instant cast or at least reduced as I mentioned earlier, not modified by Frost Fever, Infected Wounds, Thunderclap etc.
**Steady Shot is slowed by Frost Fever, Infected Wounds, Thunderclap, etc. There is not one ability anywhere else in the game that is any combination of less powerful or more lengthy in cast time. 2.4 seconds for 9 Focus(less than a Rogue gets in passive Energy regen per second)**
Yes, different classes are different but I challenge anyone to objectively draw an even line between any Hunter ability and any similar ability of any other similar class. In most cases it is not even close.
Scatter Shot should be a stun or horror effect or whatever you want to say that doesn't break on damage. This would give Hunter the ability to instigate hardswaps, the ability to pressure a healer into swap range by themselves and would make landing traps infinitely easier(if there was no pathing.) This sounds ridiculous, but does nothing for Scatter->Trap except eliminate enemy player pathing and opens it up as an offensive cooldown as well. Compare directly to Deep Freeze. Hunter is the only pure damage class in the game that cannot kill a healer by themselves.
Freezing Trap shouldn't break on periodic damage. Period. No room for a Glyph, the Glyph would suck anyway since you could eat traps and remove your debuffs, and Fear has no cooldown and sometimes doesn't break on direct damage. Polymorph has no cooldown and removes periodic damage with glyph. Hungering Cold doesn't break on periodic damage. The list goes on.
Hunter needs a pummel. I am not confident enough in my sense of game balance to suggest where it should come from, but simply standing next to a Hunter and freecasting heals or damage is something that no other class has to deal with. Silencing Shot, which is a talent, is not enough of a deterrent as it has no lockout.
Widow Venom has not been on my bars this entire expansion. Neither has Serpent Sting outside of raiding. These abilities are simply not worth the Focus cost for what they provide, are very easily dispelled and are extremely weak, especially when you consider other classes have these abilities rolled up into more effective ones.
Disengage vs Port and Blink. For one, Port is an insane tool for any map with a Z axis. Blink breaks stuns, roots - you name it. Teleports your character either to wherever you left the port, or wherever you're facing. Disengage has a longer cooldown, only increases your runspeed by 30%(compare to 70% with Improved Blink) and launches your character backwards, which is obviously more difficult to aim properly.
Rolling Damage, and ramp up time. As a Hunter, my ramp up time consists of.. gaining Focus, which can be exceedingly challenging if the target I am on is out of my line of sight, or in melee range of me. The most advanced thing I can do is pool focus to dump into Arcane Shot. I cannot shoot another target to gain focus, because Piercing Shots destroys any opportunity I have for CC outside of Silencing Shot. Mage burst is all cooldown related, you use Freeze, Frost Nova, Cone of Cold etc and get a Shatter out of it. Warlock's targets take more damage for each Shadow Debuff(draws corollary with Nightfall, very well designed) and that's before mentioning Soul Swap, Dispel protection, pet synergy or the actual DPS.
This reinforces Steady/Cobra as an instant cast that is modified by the target being Dazed. Hunter damage is exceedingly low in an arena setting and can be mitigated by simply attacking the Hunter. Not like Mage who is, "GCD capped while being trained" rather, I just can't attack because.. basically, I'm a Warrior whose damage is done by Charge, and I have Heroic Leap on a 16 second cooldown - and this is an obvious common area of so many aspects of the class that obviously needs improvement.
Finally, some form of defense for my allies. Master's Call being made dispellable was an absolutely ridiculous change. Mage's have Decurse, Warlock has offensive Dispel and infinite peels. Hunter needs something to give it strength in comps. Initiating damage, dispel protection, control - something. This class has very far behind even approaching skill cap and it deserves to be fixed.
Posted Areez on 02 May 2011 - 10:11 PM
Hunter/Lock/x - obvious reasons. Control is insane and makes it a bit more fun for the Hunter.
Hunter/DK/x - Frost damage is stupid and casters are F'd
Hunter/Moonkin/x - LOLOL... right?
Hunter/Rogue/x - Rogue's are just that cool.
this is gonna be a big wall of text, but a lot of explanation is needed and i'm in the mood to type today.
Hunter/Lock/X never was, and never will be viable for a lot of reasons. And for anyone who is going to try and throw a counter example at me, let me present this idea. Comp strength in WoW is everything - and this is mainly because the skill cap of the game is relatively low. A tier 2 comp vs a tier 1 comp, both played by excellent top of the line players, the tier 1 will win almost every time - there is no way to bridge the skill gap enough to make it so comp isn't important. That said, there have been successful hunter/lock/x teams on the LADDER in the past, but that does NOT FOR ONE SECOND mean the comp is viable at top levels. It means those players were just a shit ton better than everyone else on their ladder. Against competent players with an equal or better comp, they won't win. Now that that's out of the way, on to the comp analysis. Hunters have a lack of real peels - when compared to something like a rogue or a mage who both can shut people down for a considerable amount of time, we don't have much. Our main peels are silence shot for caster, web for melee- both of which usually used offensively in order to get a kill or force cooldowns- and roar of sac/freedom. Sac and freedom are not going to save a warlock, you need to be able to actually shut people down for locks to live. When we fight warlocks as KFC we can literally annihilate them in the first 15 seconds if all of our CC is perfect and they don't prevent any of it (very rare). Scatter in my mind doesn't count as an actual peel because you NEED to be trying to trap the healer on cooldown every single game (yes even if you play with a warlock, he will not always be able to get fears off) since hunters have some of the best mobility in the game, which makes sense for you to be the "main" ccer on your team. Because of these lack of peels, warlocks are going to die pretty fast when playing with a hunter. Hunters are not really a "blocking" class either, which warlocks definitely need as partners. For a example, a rogue or warrior can kind of "block" by just going in there and having the thread of an interrupt, stuns and damage. Hunters have no such luxury, we are are a long range 10 second cooldown burst class (chimera) with rapid fire/steady shot aimed shots thrown in for added burst. Another thing is that, in order to have adequate pressure to justify the lock being on the team, multi target pressure needs to be applied. Not only is he not going to be able to do that if he's being sat on by the melee and you as a hunter are unable to get him off, but you need to be trapping a healer which makes healer swaps not viable at all, and limits the locks pressure output substantially. Being a caster also limits the benefit of freedom since they will be standing in place to cast most of their powerful spells, while melee classes can attack on the move. As you can see, the synergy is really not there compared to hunter/warrior.
Hunter/DK/x - this is another setup that people falsely believe will ever be viable due to random teams having ladder success with it. Hunter/DK is kind of a "damage only" team and playstyle, which i can tell you right now will NEVER work against players who understand how to deal with it. The CC synergies are just not there - silence DR's with strang, hungering cold DR's with traps. DK's have very limited lockdown power, and are still vulnerable to being focused regardless of the warrior nerfs. Since hunters aren't very scary to be left alone compared to a mage or lock, and dks don't have the burst required to really force cooldowns or kills against the best players. Compared to warrior pressure, its pretty meh. Dks also don't have the mobility needed to stick targets in a lot of situations. I've played with death knights extensively and, especially verse things like splay variants where there are a bunch of fears and dots going around, the burst is simply not there to force cooldowns and to force them to pull back. These teams can play recklessly offensively against hunter/dk setups because there is not even close to the threat that a warrior would bring if a lock goes out of position.
Hunter/moonkin/x i don't think i really need to address this.
hunter/rogue/x this is one that i've said for a while that could be good, still not on the level of a warrior, but there is definitely potential here. rogues bring a lot of the same lockdown and pressure warriors bring - a bit more on the CC side and less of the damage. that's why i think they are less ideal than a warrior, because a warrior will not lockdown someone as well, but they will do much more pressure. Hunters don't need a target to be locked in place terribly long like a caster does, since most of our damage is instant anyways. Thug cleave is also just a weaker version of rmp, while kfc is definitely not a weaker version of WMS or WLS. That mostly has to do with rogue/caster synergy, which i feel hunter/warrior synergy is very similar to at this point in the game. Overall, this could be good but it will never be on the level of hunter/warrior. if you don't have access to a warrior, feel free to try this out.
now the answer to everyone's burning question - WHY Hunter/warrior works and why it will be the dominant hunter setup for this expansion (and possibly for the warrior too)
-Warrior damage. Warriors have always done a lot of damage, and always will. It's part of the class, and without it i don't see a real reason to bring a warrior on the team.
-CC synergy - warrior fear/throwdown/charge/pummel are completely separate drs from scatter/silence/trap. utilizing all of these abilities in the correct order can make for some absolutely ridiculous cc chains (imagine if your healer helps too).
-Good lockdown support from the warrior - not compared to that of a rogue, but its more than enough for a hunter in this stage of the game. we are far tankier than mages at this point due to high resilience builds being dominant, a 16 second disengage cooldown and freedom/sac, and the fact that we are not much inhibited by being trained given the fact that most of our damage is instant and that we have aspect of the fox..i guess mail armor helps too xD. charge/disarm/throwdown, and simply putting pressure on an enemy are all the ways that a warrior can assist a hunter - and sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
-Warrior benefits from hunter freedom and web hugely, also the variety of hunter slows namely chimera daze and glyphed conc shot. That on top of their new 12 sec CD charge and every healer in the game having the ability to dispel makes for some pretty sick warrior mobility and high ability to stay on a target, arguably some of the best support of that type from any other dps.
-swap and burst potential - with charge being such an awesome swap tool and hunters working on a similar cooldown- 10 sec chimera and 12 sec charge - big swaps can be made and often. this isn't always the best strategy with health pools being so high now, but we still use it all the time if our target is in a full out retreat and has burned big cooldowns.
-warriors are pretty self sufficient as far as survivability goes. Sac and freedom and silencing shots on casters are generally enough to support him.
i'm sure i'll think of more things later, but that's off the top of my head. out of all of those reasons though, i firmly believe a warrior is the best provider of them with how the game currently is, and i don't see that changing this expansion.
Posted Zipzo on 29 April 2011 - 03:05 PM
Sorry folks, I tried.
Posted Pert on 26 April 2011 - 10:25 PM
Posted Disstance on 25 April 2011 - 04:10 AM
Posted Areez on 16 April 2011 - 04:54 AM
i realize there are some hunters out there who are looking to improve their game actively, adapting to the game instead of crying about it, and that's great, but the idiots who are just going to cry about our class are not a good influence on the community in general. when high level players support distorted opinions, it only further adds to the problem. obviously its possible to succeed as a hunter, it's been done and will continue to be done.
Posted Esiwdeer on 16 April 2011 - 04:47 AM
Although I'm probably biased, so don't take this post the wrong way. I think in order for a class to have a really high "skill cap" there always needs to be a choice between damage and control.
Moreover, the success of Hunter in each season's version of whatever you have to play to come close to being competitive in arena supremely highlights this game's lacking from a competitive standpoint. Most people say, "oh you're an idiot for PvPing in an MMO" - I think stuff like RMP vs. RMP at the IEM Global finals is some of the most innovative and fascinating competition you could take place in in a video game.. any Hunter comp is always frustrating to lose to simply because the mechanics are different from those of every other class.
And no offense, but after rereading I feel like you guys are doing a disservice by posting that way. If you watch Dad's videos, they are ridden with gameplay errors. Maybe the difference in the match outcomes would be augmented only slightly if he made no errors, but it is still much more challenging to go from playing the way he is to the way you'd have to play to be as efficient and concise in your team's intent/stratagem as possible. Also, Zetox added the caveat that the best players in this game aren't, "miles ahead(which I believe was eluding to the game's general lack of balance/competitiveness)" and, mostly, just about sums it up for everyone who has ever tried to play this game for only arena while only playing a Hunter.
From my stand-point, when I play other classes it seems so easy to consistently do the things I need to do for my team. It depresses me to draw parallels between a Mage and my Hunter, just because of how much more powerful the class is. Not 1/10th of the development, or 1/10th of anything else that goes into other classes.
You can't explain it to people who don't play it. Itemization is screwy, talents are poorly(not) designed, gameplay is uncompelling - many crucial abilities haven't been changed or tweaked or looked at since the game was released.
And even if there wasn't any of that, nobody is astounded when Warlocks are getting Gladiator this season. Every time Hunter has anything it's stupid and the reason the game is broken, never the fact that Warrior/x/x is a viable comp that season.
Posted Areez on 28 February 2011 - 10:18 PM