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#4374059 Is Holinka the worst thing that happenned to WoW PvP ?

Posted Thaya on 27 January 2015 - 07:35 PM

not to mention you could run out of that bosses room when he flew up for his 2nd phase, and he just didn't do shit. you could just skip his phase 2 completely by walking out on it

paragon killed nefarian hc with 15 druids because fuck yeah alt raiding

lets just stack a class that can exploit a single mechanic on that boss and trivialize it to patchwerk level 5 minute encounter


on alakir you physically could not do phase 1

unless 15 people out of your 25 man raid waited at the starting platform until the other 10 pushed him into phase 2

which took like 10 minutes

great design

on the worm boss, the only viable tactic that made the fight doable was getting a shaman to frost shock the add and kite it around the rest of the instance for the duration of the entire fight

which also meant that you basically removed the heroic mechanic of the encounter and just proceeded with normal strat but a higher number requirement

great design

ascendant council could be cheesed by not bringing a single melee into the raid

which was fixed an hour after paragon had killed it

they let them keep the credit

who cares that all the other guilds are basically fucked and stuck on a different encounter

they actually did this on nefarian too, by the way, but it's not like anyone was going to nerd 15 druids for world 2nd or 3rd or whatever anyway

and so on and so forth. we ended world 3rd, i gquit an hour later, all three guildmasters/raidleaders followed the next day, and then basically a good half of the guild too.

can't remember a tier so horrible before or after that. i've never done hardcore raiding after, though, but i doubt it could get any worse

oh and yea, the best part is that paragon has probably seen even more bullshit than we have. they had developers interfering mid fight, mechanics being tweaked or changed entirely between pulls (silently), sinestra was basically co-designed with them, etc

and lastly, feedback has generally been negative about it from the rest of the players. the stats speak for themselves, really - subs declined more rapidly than they have during mop

#4373390 #theunforseenmonkstruggles

Posted Kylon on 27 January 2015 - 06:06 AM

I applaud you for still trying to make the Devs see the Problems Windwalkers have, but we know the truth: They dont care, at all.
I've never had more fun with a spec in the game before but Windwalkers suck and its probably not gonna get changed.
They really _really_ don't care about Windwalkers, Monks are the least played Class in the game, they are on the lowest priority list.

4 Days ago, Celestalon posted a tweet to the question "Some WW concerns were not addressed at all in 6.1 patch notes. Is this deliberate?" his reply was "Did you miss the set bonus?"
Oh mighty Blizzard developers, of course you have all Answers! A shieldwall on my offensive Cooldown will completly fix all issues the spec ever had.

And to add a few things to the List of Issues:

The Multistrike nerf in PvP (1 roll instead of 2) hurts Windwalkers a lot, i dont know (and dont care) for the exact weighting on Stats, but Tiger Strikes is a huge source of our dmg, more multistrike hits = more uptime on Tiger Strikes, resulting in doing a lot less dmg in pvp then pve

Our heals are so amazingly bad im honestly surprised Chi Wave/T30 Tree and Expel Harm are still in the Game, same with Surging Mist. A casted heal which cannot be cast more then 4-5 times before running out of energy healing for...13-14k?

I can see why this happened, i remember MoP too well, 10 stacks (+60% heal), together with proc agi and on use agi trinket would boost selfheal by over 100% compared to normal, i remember having expel harm crits for nearly 300k. That was wayyy to much, but honestly might as well remove the healing modifier on TeB and buff heals again a good chunk. Its just way too bad right now

I think the Issue WW Dmg in PvP goes deeper then just the usage of Stacks

First issue being, due to the Hotfix Nerfs of WW and buffs to other Specs, WW is one of the lowest PvE specs in Single target damage.
Some PvE monks were using our 2 set PvP bonus together with Chi Explosion to increase their dps by quite a bit, this was fixed a few days ago. So there might be hope Blizzard notices our ST dmg being shit.
Totally agree on the SEF thing, its been too strong ever since 5.4 but Blizzard straight up refuses to nerf it a little and buff our ST dmg, because our niche is "cleave dmg".

One of the biggest issues : Fists of Shit
It got buffed in WoD since PvE monks were not using it (too little dmg, not worth using it) however the new version with the required Target literally makes me want to kill myself, its our biggest source of dmg by FAR and its so easy for people to run out of range (DR stun), to get CCed on it etc.
Now its fine to get CCed on Fists, not asking for a Killing Spree here, but ever since we need a target for it, its just SO hard to even get it off, especially if you're facing russians and people with bad ms. It would really help if the Fisting while running glyph was baseline (and you keep the stun), would fix pretty much all issues with it.

Rising Sun Kick
It used to do a LOT more dmg then BoK in MoP, i suspect they changed this because this game became more casual, RSK "only" does about 20% or so more then a BoK, compared to the 100%? it used to be. I guess it's because you lost a lot of DPS in PvE if you had a few braincells missing and didnt press RSK on Cooldown, so this way monk is easier to play in PvE as you cant do as much stuff wrong.
They should just buff RSK again a bit and nerf BoK by few percent, would help a lot with our burst and doing decent dmg when uptime is low.

I agree on Disable having its own GCD, its an easy fix, doesn't take a lot of effort to implement and every other meele does have an auto-slow, so its kinda only fair we have one too.

To fix Windwalkers would not take longer then a few days at most and i want us to get fixed and NOT be broken OP.
The more important question is, why is Blizzard not doing anything? Do they really think were fine, that a shitty new 4 set bonus and a 100% karma is enough? Is it some sort of retarded marketing strategy to make people boost fotm classes?

The new set bonuses might make monk somewhat more viable then before but im still not going to play windwalker like this. I dont like the new fists, i dont like hitting 12k rising sun kicks outside of stacks while getting kited by everything the world. I dont like a UA+Corruption outdamaging my hardcasted surging mists, there is literally 0 fun in that

#4373120 #theunforseenmonkstruggles

Posted BalanceRexxar on 27 January 2015 - 04:34 AM

This post will cover what I believe to be the top issues involving Windwalker Monks in the current state of the game. Granted I am aware of other problems and fixes such as our glyphs but the main purpose of this post is to identify the problems that aren't talked about or people are unaware of.

Topics Covered:
  • Differences in DPS involing PvE and PvP
  • Survival
  • Mobility
  • The MoP to WoD Transition
Hello. My name is Steve and I have been playing World of Warcraft since 2008 and Windwalker Monks since the start of Mists of Pandaria.

Today I decided instead of sitting in my garrison awaiting the day someone decides to play with my shitty ass class I will type out all the problems I don't see anyone complain about on the forums, all I tend to see is that we lack defensives, karma gets broken, our glyphs suck! But what I don't see is all of this, I know 99.9% of you will not read this and it is more of something for me to do while I wait for my herbs in my garrison to respawn. But if you do happen to read it let me know what you think.

I'll start by listing the problems that involve both PvE and PvP which is mostly just how we deal damage.

What a lot of people don't understand is that the way we deal damage in PvE and PvP are probably more different than any other class in the game.

In PvE when you have stacks you use them, with fists, serenity, or just to use them.

In PvP you hold them until you see an opportunity whether it is landing CC or stunning with Leg Sweep.

So right off the bat you can probably figure out what the problem in here, since that general strategy of doing damage in PvE is why monks are able to compete with other classes who only use damage increasing cooldowns every 2-3 minutes, if they were to use the same strategy that we deal damage with in PvP you would see WW's very low on the DPS charts.

This makes Windwalker damage very awkward and pretty weak in PvP because we aren't having 100% uptime and aren't using those stacks as soon as we get them.

So these number tweaks are being based off numbers that don't match up with what we do in arenas.

Another damaging ability that is often overlooked is Storm, Earth, and Fire.

I don't really need to explain this because most of us know what it does in the end result, increase our total damage.

1 Clone = (100% - 30%) x 2 = 140% - 100% = 40% more damage.

2 Clones = (100% - 45%) x 3 = 165% - 100% = 65% more damage.

This is also a problem because I'm not sure if when the hotfixes that have been reducing WW damage have taken this into account. With either 1 or 2 clones out Windwalker damage is significantly higher. And in PvP you just cannot use them. They die, they get kited, and our end result isn't to pad meters, it's to score a kill on one target.

So what numbers they see in PvE don't come close to representing what actually happens in PvP. If you take into account both of these factors it is very probable that this is the reason why our damage feels so low in PvP.

I'm sad to say I cannot personally think of a simple solution to this problem and it would probably have to involve some math :( or a complete rework, maybe something along the lines of increasing single target damage but removing Storm, Earth, and Fire all together. But this would require lots of number tuning and tweaking so I don't have my hopes up it will ever get fixed I merely wanted to address it as a problem.


Now with those general problems out of the way we can move on to some of the new changes and what problems I foresee with them.

The removal of our current 2 set:

This is actually a good set bonus that is being removed what what reason I believe is simply to make space. I don't think the developers think it's overpowered or out of line but are simply removing it to add in new set bonuses which isn't really fair to nerf us to give us buffs. It's a + and a - and we both know a positive times a negative is a negative so you could understand my confusion on why we are losing something that is good without a reason given.

The new 2 set (100% Karma):

This is good, what I am confused about on this though is why is was ever nerfed to 50% in the first place, I'm assuming that it was a PvE reason but what I noticed going from MoP to WoD is that it does significantly LESS damage than what it did in MoP, last people were severely punished for attacking into this because the DoT could get pretty massive, but in WoD that dot barely does any damage. So since it does barely any damage, why was it nerfed to 50%? I feel like that if it were 100% baseline, and did allow a minor DPS bonus in PvE that DPS bonus would be so incredibly minuscule it wouldn't matter and it would give the Windwalker Spec a free spot for our old set bonus or implement a new one.

The New 4 Set:

Now I applaud the developers for realizing the need for a passive damage reduction that only Windwalkers seem to not have, there are some serious issues with it.

I'm afraid these 4 set is being based off of what they see in PvE, and like I stated earlier, what they see in PvE is Tigereye Brew being consumed FAR more than it is in PvP.

If you look at PvP and the total amount of time we have Tigereye Brew consumed it is pretty low.

Also another thing to note is that I very rarely use 10 stacks of Tigereye Brew, I'd say most of my burst ranges from 5-9 stacks, it isn't so much as how many stacks we have when we burst, but the opportunities that present themselves when we burst. Whether it's someone wasted a cooldown that they don't have if we burst then, if they are in a bad position (out of LoS), if they will have a cooldown to same themselves soon, or whether it's Tiger Strikes, Trinket Proc, ALL of these things are more important to take advantage of when consuming our stacks rather than if we have all 10. Because chances are, it's the opportunities and situations the players put themselves in whether they score a kill, not if they have 12% more damage on the 6 globals they get off during those precise moments of finesse burst.

So with that being said, if we have lower stacks consumed, we will have less damage taken, 10-15% instead of 20%. So it actually won't be 20% whenever we consume it, this isn't PvE where we wait for 10, we wait for opportunities.

And with that being said, if we were to look at the total time we have Tigereye consumed (which is low) and then apply it in times we actually need that damage reduction, you will notice they are often opposite of each other. Tigereye brew is extremely important offensively, we would never score a kill without it.
If you look at when we burst, (unless you are going for counter-pressure, which isn't that often) we generally burst when we are not on the defensive. So when we do consume those stacks and get that damage reduction, that is probably the worst time to have it.

If you had a resto druid on your team you wouldn't Ironbark your teammate when they don't need it, so I don't understand why they are essentially giving us this damage reduction in the one spell where we wouldn't need it most.

It almost makes the 4 set worthless, but because it is actually worth something when we do in fact have nothing, it will still benefit you regardless of how little it actually does.

But because it is worthless it is necessary for a different type of defensive buff, there are much simpler solutions than putting it into Tigereye Brew.

Putting a damage reduction on Tiger Palm.

Making targets affected by Rising Sun Kick do X less damage.

Rework Fortifying Brew.

Implement a new glyph.

Eliminating passive damage reductions isn't an option, you will either have thoughtful ones like Feint and Ironbark or passives like Defensive Stance and Lightning Shield.

Refusing to give Windwalkers one is probably the biggest reason they aren't viable right now.

Now I will address some other issues that plague our class. Mostly other classes.

Hand of Protection: Negates our only defensive without sacrificing a major defensive for their team.

Burst of Speed: If I apply my slow, the rogue is out of it before I'm even off global. Not to mention their AUTO ATTACKS slow me for 50%, so if they are constantly moving 70% and I'm unable to apply a slow and I'm moving 50% slower, that means rogues can be moving 120% faster than me at all times. If I am able to hit them it's because they are allowing me to, not because it's actually possible.

Druids: Too many too list, silence on Displacer is a good start but there is so much more they could do. For feral, I spam my slow, they spam cat form, I do no damage, they do no damage, seems pointless and annoying whenever I do it.

Ret Paladins: Similar to rogues, they can auto attack a slow on me, have what feels like a permanent sprint, and freedoms / dispels to get out of my snares.

Hunters: Auto attack ranged slow that has 100% uptime along with being able to remove all movement impairing effects and give themselves a sprint for 15 seconds. Not to mention their knockbacks and freedom if I ever do catch up.

Warlocks: Not a big deal, but I think Soulburn: Teleport should have been purged with WoD, do warlocks really need a freedom + sprint? Seems like an outdated ability to me. Not too big of a deal though.

So, if you look at these classes they tend to be the most viable kill targets, the problem is they are slippier than an eel so we cannot stick on them, and most of the time they play with other DPS that aren't viable kill targets for us such as Death Knights or Warriors because of how little damage they take from us.

With WoD, we eliminated a lot of CC but we didn't eliminate a lot of mobility and we are really feeling the effect of it now.

A simple fix that they could do to us is to put Disable on it's own GCD, similar to how warriors Hamstring works. Which is a more likely change than the removal or reduction of mobility.


And finally, something that was never addressed and I haven't heard anyone mention is our CC and bursts correlation.

CC and damage are two very important concepts of the game, the more CC a class has the less damage that class should do to keep the game balanced.

If there is an imbalance of these two key concepts it will lead to the rise and fall of many specializations.

For Windwalker's that balance was better in Mists of Pandaria than it currently is.

Granted we have a lot of ways to stop our target, that doesn't really qualify as CC, for CC I'm talking about paralysis, traps, cyclone, fear, polymorph, those types of things.

So our CC didn't really change from MoP to WoD, 4s para, 5s stun, 4s stun, and that was that.

But what did change was our burst.

Mists of Pandaria, Leg Sweep > RJW > Tigereye > RSK > Fists of Fury > etc. was one of the most powerful burst setups in the game. 100-0 was a very plausible number for that setup.

But now what is it? 100-70? 100-50? With this lack of burst in combination of what CC we have is a major reason why we are struggling.

In Mists of Pandaria this incredible burst made up for our lack or defensive, the best defense if offense right?

Well with our offense gone... You know the rest.

Now, this is where my thoughts run out, how can we have a balance between PvP and PvE when damage is the #1 factor you need to keep in mind in terms of PvE balance.

With that being said I feel a little better putting all of my thoughts into a wall of text very, very, very few people are actually going to read but if they do I truly believe they would get a better understanding of not only monks but the game in general.

O nice I think my garrison herbs have respawned, time to go pick my flowers.

#4372976 RBG Tournament: Battle of the Atlantic Worlds Reveal Show

Posted Korzul on 27 January 2015 - 02:34 AM

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#4370705 Is Holinka the worst thing that happenned to WoW PvP ?

Posted ichor on 25 January 2015 - 03:08 AM

You can point out individuals as much as you want but in the end it all sums down to the basics of capitalism/commerce, obnoxiously obvious statement inc:

Activision/Blizzards motivation is not to create the best possible game for the players, that ship sailed the moment the game was established as the #1 mmorpg. From that point on, the motivation have been profitability and maintenance. As long as the existance of the company is relatively safe, they don't necessarily have to give you what you want in order to live.

The most costeffective bullshit is what gives you the highest profit, wich means the optimal product is the one that exploits this concept the most before customers lose interest. No product will be developed first and foremost for the consumers, unless thats the most costefficient state of the product. This is really never ever the case, except if you're trying to establish yourself in the market. If your main concern is maintaining, the optimal state of a product is in nearly any case bullshit. Anything else is a waste, "experimental" or overly idealistic.

So what you can expect from Activision/Blizzard is: bullshit. Hyped bullshit. The rest is psychology.

This is pretty universal, but the gamingindustry is one of the best places to observe the effects of capitalism.If you pay some attention. Another good example is foodproduction and how nutritionvalues suffer as a consequence of more and more costefficient productionmethods. The list is pretty long.

#4369484 Nessper

Posted zzatbrah on 24 January 2015 - 05:53 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 24 January 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

considering nessper's history it's pretty gross that he's even that high on the ladder, everyone that ques into them knows they play like complete shit every game and still win because of their comp. It might be different if it were just one team or one streamer but it is literally everyone that ques into them saying these things.
its not even the fact that they dont play well its moreso how they play while not playing well.
if they were actually playing the game it would be differnet, but they play to not lose and that shit pisses anyone
who has ever fought people like that more than anytthing

#4369097 $toneform getting nerfed in 6.1

Posted Knaittiz on 24 January 2015 - 01:24 AM

can we go horde now i want to be a belf

#4369055 Nessper

Posted Seu on 24 January 2015 - 12:27 AM

View Postseeiz, on 23 January 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Have you ever been so mad you took a shit in the drawer?

nah he was on some indiana jones shit swapping it for the ipod quickly

#4368206 PVE gear nerfs

Posted Dills on 23 January 2015 - 05:18 AM

R.I.P maldiva

#4368605 US 2v2 ladder fixed

Posted exeodius1 on 23 January 2015 - 03:04 PM

its almost sad that it's fixed, because its disappointing to see whose #1

#4367693 Nessper

Posted Adversa on 22 January 2015 - 04:18 PM

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#4363450 New S16 Gladiator Mount

Posted Chipz on 18 January 2015 - 12:21 PM

Majestic as fuck.
Thanks for carrying me through the season almighty resto druids.

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#4289281 Primal Glad Mount

Posted Lightningx on 08 December 2014 - 06:06 AM

nobody will need a new flying gladiator mount since every gladiator this season will already have WINGS


#4288608 Primal Glad Mount

Posted Savoh on 07 December 2014 - 03:21 PM

Primal Gladiator's Spud of Victory

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#4287354 Primal Glad Mount

Posted Capstone on 06 December 2014 - 01:48 PM

i sent my idea for gladiator mounts to nadagast as the PvP summit was approaching, but i have it on good authority that he did not bring it up during the meeting

i tried

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