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Member Since 26 Nov 2012
Offline Last Active Dec 16 2014 05:47 PM

Posts I've Made

In Topic: Bow down to the ret paladin gods

05 December 2014 - 04:12 PM

View Postottishen, on 05 December 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

So your argument is basically "if the ret paladin has 0 stacks of FoL and the mage is polymorphing somebody that is not on DR from earlier, the mage doesn't get interrupted or dispelled, then the mage denies more damage than the ret." Also seems like according to you, rets has no other way than healing to help their team. It's not like you have 4 CC breaks for your healer (getting your healer out of a 8 sec CC with about 30k hps means 240k extra healing, not to mention preventing possible followup cc which will in most cases completely nullify your opponent's kill opportunity), two of which can also be used as damage mitigation, a Freedom which not only helps people kite but also reduced the duration of stuns or a 30 sec cd stun to prevent damage. Add Wings and Holy Avenger for counter-pressure and you can prevent a LOT of damage and possibly also just randomly kill something.
Of course healing will not look too strong if you isolate it from all other forms of utility, but you can't look at stuff that way.

Your argument looks pretty good on paper, but if you log on and play some arena you will notice why people are complaining about ret paladins. And if you still don't, try playing something else than ret and then come back.

People are complaining about Ret because they're not used to deal with it.

Healing can help keep people up but can't stop a healer to land a kill, CC can do that.

Our conversation got to the point where we conclude: specs have strenghts and weakness. Ret have defensive utility but the only ofensive is the burst/stun. The dispel for the healer is to compensate for the lack of peels and self healing - not to mention we trade most of our DPS for healing with WoG and if FoL get interrupted we can't even bubble. After bubble Ret is dead meat. You can pressure to get 2 sacs and 2 bops withing the first 2 minutes of the fight real easy with the amount of CC that a Mage/Hunter/Rogue have and then, what can the Ret do? Stun you so your healer can keep dispel, just so he can say he'd done everything he can. Maybe a couple of WoGs but that's it. And if you played MoP you know it.

People are just used to have ofensive utility dominating everything and now they toned it down so defensive utlitiy shines. When people eventualy learn that if your fight against a Ret lasted for 3 mins and he spend his bubble, it's just a matter of coordinating CC and dealing sustained damage and win - then people will see how much they're overreacting.

People say Ret burst is faceroll because all he need to do is deal damage, but when people facerolled Ret burst just chaining CC him it was OK. No bias, right?

Now people have to actually have skill to kite/CC and use defensives right when Ret burst. I agree that with 50% CC reduction this could be too hard, but 80% of Ret ofensive utility is just that if it's easly countered then the spec is dead as it was on MoP.

So make it a 30% CC reduction and let people deal with Ret burst and defensive utiltiy. Most comps have the tools for it.

In Topic: Bow down to the ret paladin gods

05 December 2014 - 01:27 PM

View Postottishen, on 05 December 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

The difference between "interrupting a poly or Blind" and stopping a ret from casting is 1) The poly is interruptable, and 2) poly is dispellable. As for Blind, you are comparing a 15 sec cd heal to a 1.5 min cd CC that is one of the rogues strongest CC for scoring a kill. How is that even a fair comparison?

To me it feels more like "If the ret knows how to play and saves his stacks for when it is needed and not using it instantly" instead of "you have REALLY bad luck if he has them up for your burst". Why would you use up your stacks if the other team is not going for a kill?

I might be wrong with this, but the last time I checked you didn't HAVE TO kill somebody for the 150k crit heal, but rather killing somebody would give you a 100%  crit chance. I have been crit healed for 150k by my ret a number of times without us scoring a kill, just saying.

You can't seriously claim that ret offhealing is fine. It is incredibly strong, and combined with the abilities to break your healer out of cc a number of times it is really hard to score a kill even against bad ret teams compared to other comps.

I agree that compare Ret heal to Rogue blind is wrong. But we can match it with Mage Poly: Ret heal have about the same casting time, is not dispelable, does not break on damage and peels for about 20k. Mage poly does that but peel for whatever amount of damage the enemy can deal over the whatever duration the poly is in, and that usualy much more than the reliable 20k, or even 50k instant. For peels, any spamable CC is ususaly stronger than spamable healing because damage is almost always stronger than sustained DPS healing.

Really, people are dealing about 15k damage PER SECOND. If your CC hold the enemy for 3 seconds on ONE person, you avoided 45k damage. Most people can do that much more often than every 15s and/or can stop more than one person from DPSing with Area CC. That's not even counting on people bursting.

If you land a full 6s CC on a 30k damage per second person during burst (that happened EVERY TIME Ret burst before the CC reduction bonus) you just avoided about 180k damage. And you can count on that much more than you can count on Ret having 3 stacks AND the 9% chance to crit.

So I just gave reason to BUFF Ret healing A LOT. But you won't see me opening a thread qqing for Ret healing buffs, take that as a bonus.

In Topic: Bow down to the ret paladin gods

05 December 2014 - 12:43 PM

3 stacks instant FoL every 15 secs given you're with haste and using judge on CD gives you 50k off heal. That's what you can count on happening.

Now how much damage you peel on a 6s CC since EVERYONE have more CC than Ret? Well I bet most people deal more than 50k damage over 6s. Healing is Ret's reliable peel, everyone got one. If you need to interrupt a Mage poly or CC the Rogue to avoid a Blind, you should do that to Ret too to avoid healing.

150k heals won't happen often because it requires a KILLING BLOW to happen. If that happened, than it's NOT the healing that's your problem, the problem is you are dead. Got it? If you have REALLY bad luck, Ret will have 3 stacks during your burst and will maybe heal for 75k once, but it's the same as any other spec peel, so deal with it.

And Ret have HANDS but don't have things like Grip, Area Silence, Area Stun, Area Fear, Spamable CC and so on that others have. Really, learn what counters what before complaining.

By the way, if you want to burn me, do it by making logical truthfull arguments. Show that I am wrong and there is no way to counter a Ret without the 50% CC reduction (that I and most Rets agree that needs to be nerfed) and shut me up.

In Topic: Bow down to the ret paladin gods

05 December 2014 - 11:43 AM

View PostSlance, on 05 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

At the start of mop there was a thread where a lot of biased warriors came together and defended taste for blood stacks. This thread kinda reminds me of that one. :)

Shows that you didn't read a thing.

Most Rets here are AGREEING with nerfing the 2piece bonus.

But there is people who have no idea how Ret gameplay works and how some tools are MADE to counter certain things and are complaining about things like double Hands, not to mention how stupid is to complain about Ret healing. People just didn't read, they're to lazy to learn to play so they die, don't now why and get to the foruns to complain.

People complaining Ret heals 150k. Yeah, Ret heals 150k IF they spend a talent AND get land 3 judgments AND not getting the stacks dispeled AND land a killing blow AND get strenght/CDs up.

Outside of that condition, Ret heals for about 20k and cast for that.

Really, people who don't know/don't care about how things work should not be allowed to express opinion.

In Topic: Bow down to the ret paladin gods

04 December 2014 - 06:47 PM


Relax bro. As much as I like it because makes me know I'm not crazy when I read your posts and agree with - you're just spending your energy here. 80% of qqers won't even read your points because all they care is to find a easy way out instead of a fair way to counter Rets.

About the issue, I think they could change the PVP Bonus to something else or just make a 30% reduction time to CC.

But this is a solution for today that creates a problem tomorrow when cleaves may get kicked out of the meta for wizards to dominate again.

Thing is: Ret needs to require skill to play, but adversaries need to require skill to counter it also and 50% CC reducion is not a solution as much as spam CC on AW.

Maybe remove the 50% and increase the Freedom reduction to like 35% and duration so requires some skill be able to burst without getting CC'd 100% of the time and CC won't suck so much against Ret. And the most important: only Ret smart enough to know when the CC will get in will avoid it with Freedom and only people who had saved enough CC will have enough to peel from a Ret.

But that's IT.

If Ret needs any other changes it's survivability because it STILL relies too much arround bubble and self healing sucks on top of trading too much damage for it. Remember Ret is still easy to CC outside of AW too.

(My post was for people who actually understand the game, please do not spend time and disorient people who don't know what's going on. And PLEASE, understand the WHOLE spec mechanics, and numbers before criticizing it)