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Member Since 26 Nov 2012
Offline Last Active May 20 2015 08:56 PM

#4286208 Bow down to the ret paladin gods

Posted by Crono_Smash on 05 December 2014 - 11:43 AM

At the start of mop there was a thread where a lot of biased warriors came together and defended taste for blood stacks. This thread kinda reminds me of that one. :)

Shows that you didn't read a thing.

Most Rets here are AGREEING with nerfing the 2piece bonus.

But there is people who have no idea how Ret gameplay works and how some tools are MADE to counter certain things and are complaining about things like double Hands, not to mention how stupid is to complain about Ret healing. People just didn't read, they're to lazy to learn to play so they die, don't now why and get to the foruns to complain.

People complaining Ret heals 150k. Yeah, Ret heals 150k IF they spend a talent AND get land 3 judgments AND not getting the stacks dispeled AND land a killing blow AND get strenght/CDs up.

Outside of that condition, Ret heals for about 20k and cast for that.

Really, people who don't know/don't care about how things work should not be allowed to express opinion.
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#4252540 Guide to Ret on WoD

Posted by Crono_Smash on 04 November 2014 - 11:17 AM


This is the baseline of what we know at the time that Beta ended. Guidelines we can use to build up the knowledge of the spec from now on. It's not the guide to high end gameplay, because obvious ;P

I'd like to thank Zaul, CJ, Ciric, Animefreak/Drownlord and Avengelyne for all the support and perspective during the development.

And if someone finds something interesting that could be in this post, or some mistake of mine, please say so ;D


Overall Ret is awesome because the game is shifting away from CC gameplay. I say most specs were brought down to Ret level. Makes sense of what Blizz always said "Ret is fine" when we were not: other classes/specs were overpowered and now the game will be much more playable.

Ret got it's gameplay simplified and some HUGE buffs for it's dispel toolkit (even losing Aura Mastery/Devotion Aura). Not to mention some healing buffs to fix survivabiltiy, because Battle Fatigue has been reduced to 20%. Should be gone. We complained a lot about it. But it's OK as long as this don't change (and we know it will =/)

On top of it, Ret got much more options/flexibility. So Ret can play combinations of Sustained/Burst/Single Target/Cleave/Mobility and Healing gameplay. It's up to you to customize that.

I tried to get as many facts as I can here. The builds specifics will sink in as the meta game develops so I'll just leave Vanguards to take that foward.

Let's go to the info.


1) Inquisition removed
2) Guardian of Ancient Kings removed
3) Devo Aura removed
4) Blind became a talent
5) Hand of Sacrifice off GCD
6) Perks: Empowered Divine Storm, Hand of Sacrifice, Hammer of Wrath and Forbearance
7) Passives: Righteous Vengeance = 5% extra Mastery / Sanctity Aura = raid +3% versatility.
8) Many of our old passives have been made innate (Art of War)


Where is 2 main gameplay options: Single Target, as we always did and Cleave that it's worth for making area damage pressure when there is 2+ targets at reach. This should be usefull for RBGs mainly.

Long Arm of the Law
Fist of Justice or Blinding Light
Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield (for Cleave gameplay)
Clemency or Umbreakable (for Cleave gameplay)
Holy Avenger or Divine Purpose (for Cleave gameplay)
Execution Sentence or Prism (for Cleave gameplay)


Templar’s Verdict (basic)
Divine Protection (when physical damage)
Hand of Freedom (when there is a lot of CC)
Divine Storm (survivability when cleave)
BoG (when you're getting kited hard)
Divine Shield (when your DS is getting dispeled instant)
WoG (read below)

Glyph of WoG stack with our PVP Gear Bonus so with it we get 18% extra damage after using it. Now stack it with AW, HA and Seraph and you can oneshot people. Just be sure to use when there is a boat arround or you'll drown on people's tears when this happens.


Str > Versatility > Mastery > Haste > Multistrike = Crit

Why versatility? Because the survivability and healing it brings compensate for the not so good DPS. Since we're the ones always trained and healing is a big part of our gameplay, Versatility brings more to the table.

We're going to have only 5 Slots to Enchant and no Gems, plus no Hit/Expertise/PVPPower/Resil on the table so this will be much more simple.


We all know there is no rotation for PVP, but there is priorities so here we go.

Damage numbers are more balanced for melee. From MoP to WoD they reduced about 20% ranged damage (Exo, Judge) and increased melee to compensate.

Seal damage has doubled so this increases SoJ value by a LOT. SoT still does more damage on stationary target, but if SoJ makes you stay on melee range (not get kited) for a couple of GCDs it's already worth using. SoT should be still usefull against melees that won't kite you or stealthies.

SoR is worth swapping when there is 2 stationary targets but I'd just use it for 5s or RBGs. Same for all the Cleave I mention here.

1 target : SoJ > ES > HoW > EDS=FV^ > FV5 > CS > J > FV > Exo
2 targets: SoR > HoW > EDS=FV^ > FV/DS5 > CS > J > Prism > FV>DS > Exo

Just Save HoPo when it's about 7s before the CD ends so you have 5 when it's up. And align with CDs for best performance/burst, of course.

Empowered Seals:
SoR > ES > J > SoT > CS > Exo> J > HoW > TV
No priority seal -> you can DPS with whatever you have on
Priority buff = Truth
Change to SoR if Truth is 10s+ duration and Right is 10s- duration

2 targets: SoR instead of SoT
2 targets: EDS instead of EDS=FV^
3 targets: DS instead of TV


SoR = Seal of Righteousness
SoJ = Seal of Justice
SoT = Seal of Truth
ES = Execution Sentence
HoW = Hammer of Wrath
FV = Final Verdict
TV = Templar's Veredict
CS = Crusader's Strike
J = Judgment
Exo = Exorcism
HotR = Hammer of the Righteouss
Prism = Holy Prism
DS = Divine Storm
EDS = Empowered Divine Storm
EDS=FV^ = Empowered Divine Storm buffed by FV
FV5 = Final Verdict with 5 Holy Power
DS5 = Divine Storm with 5 Holy Power
FV>DS = Alternate between FV and DS to get the FV buff


Empowered Seals Happy Macro:

Single button swap between SoR and SoT and if you use it with Shift you SoI and with Alt you SoJ. Flexibility on demand.

/cast [mod:shift] Seal of Insight; [mod:alt] Seal of Justice; [stance:1] Seal of Righteousness; [stance:2][nostance] Seal of Truth; [stance:3][nostance] Seal of Truth; [stance:4][nostance] Seal of Truth;

The rest is all the same we already have.
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#4241959 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 24 October 2014 - 04:04 PM

About the Divine Purpose vs Holy Avenger:

I think this expansion will not be so burst oriented and DP could be very much used because of EmpDS actually.

Because if you're during AW+HA burst and a EmpDS procs and it's worth to use the proc, you use it and there goes a FV or builder GCD. Of course, we're talking about good and great situation here, but with HA you want to maximize the HoPo generation to take benefit from it.

Other things are: WoG could have a increased value so as much as sucks to rely on luck, it's just as bad to burst for healing too... Another thing is, that we won't be globaling people anymore, and one of the main points of HA is that we could deal HUGE damage in such a short window of time... I'd say if we're going with HA, maybe Seraph it's interesting because it could help us make the most of it.

Then it's about the situation/gameplay you need: compressed burst or sustained but not so reliable.


And about Sacred Shield vs Selfless Healer:

Last time I tried SS on beta lvl 100, it was giving like 20% more number value than a FoL in yourself. I think 2 instant FoL were healing for like 40k and SS absorv summed up to 48k or something - talking about the value given 30s window. These numbers have to be done again. But here is the deal:

SS have to absorv WAAAY more than a FoL to be worth using.

If for some reason, damage taken during the ticks of absorv don't reach the absorv given, it's wasted because it won't stack. FoL will always heal for the amount you know it's needed.

The value SH gives is extreme. SS can give 20% more but SH gives 100% more on an ally and that's just more value. And it sinergies with Supplication making it a Lay on Hands on a friend and a half one on self. With SS you don't have to judge to benefit from it, but it makes all FoL need to be fully casted...

I think SS as it is, is worth to use only when you know that you're going to be trained 100% of the time and you won't benefit from Supplication.

Or, the numbers on lvl 100 changed and the sum of absorvs over the 30s reach something closer to the double that 2 FoL heal.

Don't know if I'm clear so I'll just draw some numbers:

FoL = 20k
SS tick = 8k

SH = 2 FoL over 30s + 2 GCD + have to judge on CD
SS = 6 ticks over 30s + 1 GCD

FoL self heal for 40k over 30s.
FoL selfless heal for 80k over 30s.
SS absorv self 48k over 30s.
SS absorv others 48k over 30s.

I'm not counting crit because both FoL and SS ticks can crit, so it's tha same luck on both sides.

So, make SS ticks for about 11k to 12k so it absorvs 66k to 72k over 30s to compete with SH.

Yes, I've tweeted that a dozen times to Blizz devs. No sucess.

Can someone run the numbers? I'm without my PC until sunday I think.
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#4241266 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 23 October 2014 - 07:20 PM

Honestly, I haven't posted in these forums for a long time, but i had to after reading the stuff you're posting.

Basically, long story short, it comes down to what your experience is. I'm not going to be a dick and assume you're not that good, but with all of the really, really odd suggestions you make, I almost have to.

Felic is right about 99% of the stuff he/she has posted in this thread. The heals you're talking about with SoI and "turtling" and playing defensively being the best offense are hilarious. Like, honestly, man, the heal on glyph of AW and the heal on SoI are both garbage. The only reason i would personally ever use SoI in arena when playing "defensive" was for the mana gain, because i was forced to heal, not the heal on the ability itself. And we dont even get the mana anymore, so there really is no purpose for using it at all. It's not be closed-minded; it's realistic. I've played at relatively low-level arena 2300-2400 and the ideas you spew wouldn't even work there, let alone at high-level play.

Realistically, albeit sadly, there usually only is one particular spec that works well; all others tend to be gimmicky, or fly under the radar somehow without any real use. It used to be different, true. Back in bc and wrath you could substitute some abilities based on preference, but even then there were cookie-cutter builds that were just vastly superior in most situations.

I must admit, your personality and posts have really annoyed me, which is irrelevant, but i figured i'd mention it anyway.

You might hurt someone's feelings like that. You're a terrible person.

I just had to.
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#4238638 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 21 October 2014 - 12:36 PM

Thanks for your reply Crono, It was very helpful :)

Haste matters that much for damage :confused:

Btw, gemming is still about stacking the biggest amount of strength possible or should we go mastery or crit ?

Thanks in advance for your reply,

15% haste is HUGE. Not just for damage, but everything. Reduces the CD of all generators, GCD and even whatever we cast. The talent is balanced arround using both buffs all the time for damage unfortunately. It's past the time we complain, but I've said many times I rather have all "single target damage component" of EmpSeals on Truth and make Right to buff cleave, but they've made it with haste. It won't change =/

Here is our current stat priority:

Str > Mastery > Multistrike = Crit > Haste > Versatility
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#4238599 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 21 October 2014 - 12:13 PM

I'm not Aveng (and I want to hear from him too ;P) but here is what I got on EmpSeals:

You have to start with Right, judge, swap to Truth and judge to get started. You have to maintain both up like a Inquisition, but harder. There is a big difference on damage if you're not with Truth AND Right up at the same time... and this sucks.

The upside it's that there is times when damage is not so relevant and you can swap and judge Insight or Justice for mobility/utility and then swap back to Truth/Right.

Another good change is the damage from seals buff, makes it OK to stay in whatever seal you are (except from Insight) to DPS - only thing you have to look at is the buffs.

I think we COULD use aura/timers to know when we have to swap to what seal assuming we'll judge as soon as possible... it's something really hard to maintain and imo, HoT from Insight is not enough. Speed from justice is worth it, but really, Insight falls short if you gonna go trough all that trouble for some situational survivability.

Most of the time we need to have 2 buffs up, more than that we'd be spending too much GCDs on swap that we should be using for other things like DPS/utility.

And that's what I got on EmpSeals =P


Animefreak, me and some others that don't post here are pretty happy with Ret current state. We have a lot of flexiblity on gameplay. We can custom talents/glyphs to go full mobility, survivability, cleave, single target, burst, sustained and so on. We'll have a lot of work changing talents/glyphs every arena depending on the comp... do you guys know a fast way to do it, like presets?

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#4201357 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 03 September 2014 - 08:55 PM

If Crono would just play Horde, we could play Triple-Ret :D

Zaul does really much!
We are 4-5 Rets who are active on Twitter with Holinka and Celestalon.

If Crono would just play Horde, we could play Triple-Ret :D

Zaul does really much!
We are 4-5 Rets who are active on Twitter with Holinka and Celestalon.

Definetely ;D

But I'm getting married this friday, so I have almost no time to log in =P
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#4196626 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 25 August 2014 - 04:16 PM

The game is changing it's mechanics overall.

With less CC and bigger health pools, it's no longer about CC and burst.

I think it's to early to say what the game will be about. Maybe about sustained damage burning mana, maybe about sudden burst, maybe about a well placed CC. I think it'll be about all this and more.

But when we realise the game is changing a lot, it's hard to say if Ret will be good or bad.

Ret is always bad because the game has always been about what Ret lacks: CC, Cleave, DoT, Range, Ofensive Utility. But Ret is getting better Cleave with FV, overall CC is being nerfed, EmpSeals give us Survivability AND Mobility to make up for the lack of a Charge/Grip/Ranged at the cost of being a really good player to manage all the Seal Buffs...

I still think Ret needs a Retribution Aura exclusive that people think "Hey, let's bring a Ret because of that" and I'm EVERY WEEK on the Devs ass complaining about that - but other than that... it's about tweeking the numbers right and some quaility of life changes.

Here is my main sugestions:

1a) Reduce damage from some basic spells and increase the seal effects so there is a real reason to change seals from time to time.

Like, reduce CS/Judge/HotR/DS/HoW/TV/etc damage by 20% and increase all seals damage (except from insight) by 20%.

So if you don't swap seals for AoE/Snare/Healing it's really bad and if you don't swap back, it's a huge DPS loss.

BUT to finish this change, remove Seal of Truth from GCD.

So it's always worth the GCD/effort to CHANGE SEALS situationally and not a cluncky burden to swap it back.

Insight heals for more, Justice snare lasts longer (maybe physical?), Righteouss cleave 'em all right.

Think how this would feel on the gameplay.


1b) Just fking REMOVE BASELINE SEALS because there is no point having so many buttons that is not worth to use 95% of the time.

2) HotR should not require a target but generate Holy Power only when a target is hit.

3) Ret needs a real Retribution exclusive Raid Wide CD like a Retribution Aura that reflects damage, or something that scales up to 20 people. Hands are not exclusive, not optimal and balanced for 3 to 5 people, not 20.

4) Exo needs to deal more damage/mechanic because it's a filler right now.
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#4192531 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 16 August 2014 - 05:01 PM

Nice. Hope you're right. Frankly, I can't wait to play level 100 RBGs. :]

Are they tweaking prot yet?

Yesterday Holinka said they're changing the damage increase tanks take from 25% to 50% more damage taken.

We're expecting a damage/healing balance next weak, at leat the first pass so we can start giving feedback about that.

I don't think they'll do any Prot tweaks especialy for PVP (but maybe something small) but I can say Avenger's Shield bouncing 5 times rules crowds. And Prot + DPS is a easy win against teams with healer on x2, especialy if you go Prot+DK or Enhance, or even Ret.

Like I said: Tanks get to be only about 15% harder to kill and deal only 15% less damage. So it's more about mechanics than turtle. But we have to see how the game will turn out. Less CC and less burst = longer games even without tanks arround. So it could be a problem. Maybe we're back to having mana problems, or maybe some middle ground. We'll se...

I'm betting they'll do this right this time. But when they fix the numbers I'll create a tread about it, give the numbers to compare with Ret and we discuss it there ;D
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#4190398 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 12 August 2014 - 11:28 AM

I'd say we will generate Holy Power only 50% of the time and we'll basicaly manage procs, if we play with FV.

1) If you FV you'll better DS on the next oportunity with or without proc.
2) If you have a DS proc, you might try to FV before using it.

Thing is, DS can proc from WoG. And DS proc lasts for 10s.

It's hard to manage, at least for me without auras. But a FV + Proc DS + FV + Proc DS on burst with Divine Purpose is HUGE. For whoever play Heroes of the Storm (I know, don't hate me =P) it's like Uther's Divine Storm when double range, lesser CD and more damage.


I can't get to twitter here but, yesterday Holinka answered one of my and Zauls questions about Ret for RBG.

He said that the increased cleave damage will make Ret side by side with DKs and Locks.

I said DKs and Locks bring much control and damage will not make it. He got pissed (I think) and said we were talking like Hands didn't exist. Then I explained Hands defensive cannot compete with Grip, Area Control and Raid CDs for RBG utility and CD. Like I always say: Hands for 3 people is very diferent than for 10. There is no way the same amout of CD/GCDs is OK for both. And... no answer =P

But it's great, they're talking about it and looking into it. It's way more than anything I've seen the past 2 or 3 years =P
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#4187767 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 07 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

After the new Patchnotes, i'm not sure.... :)

Yeah, there were the Perk to get a free Divine Storm.

That synergies with FV because FV will give your next DS a 100% damage buff. Looks sweet for PVE but PVP depends a lot on mobility and survivability.

EmpSeals were the solution to a LOT of Ret problems (excepct Raid utiltiy). But they screwed it up. Will realise and buff on 6.4 of course.

NO WAY it's worth taking EmpSeals for 1% healing Insight on PVP. Seriously. Go FV and spend your GCD on WoG, that's the worst way to spend HoPo with FV since no buffs, no procs and no attack power buff EmpSeals would have.

That was the DUMBEST decision I've seen Blizz take because it just removes options, reduces gameplay skillcap... it's like giving us a Ferrari with no engine.

Every day we discover another layer of how Blizz makes Ret a joke.
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#4187737 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 AM

I'm confused, what did they take from ret?

Also, I would say that double sac dispel and incredible healing is something that you bring to the team,, no? Most specs of the same class brings the same utility, all shaman specs has Stormlash, Grounding and Tremor totem, all priests has Psychic Scream and Leap of Faith and so on. You are never competing with a Holy Paladin for a spot on a team, so what does it matter?

I'm talking about the long run.

Repentance, Sacred Shield, Long Arm of the Law... the more you look, you see things were once Ret exclusive and now is a talent, were removed or just nerfed to the ground.

Today on Beta, Ret brings NOTHING exclusive. Every other spec have at least ONE exclusive utility and Ret brings just nothing Holy doesn't.

Look how things are balanced: They take Devotion Aura (not that it matters that much) from Ret and give a equivalent raid CD for Hunter and Mage. They took Avenging Wrath from Holy... but then "Hmm... no, if Ret have something exclusive Ret could be desirable for some group and we DEFINETELY DON'T WANT THAT. Let's give it back to Holy so Ret have NOTHING EXCLUSIVE."

What's the reason to bring Ret for RBGs? Acording to the community: None. Acording to common sense: None. Acording to Blizz: FoL, WoG, Sac, BoP and Freedom. And they mean it.

This joke is past funny since Cata.


Just so you get the news. They buffed damage from all classes by 20% and they nerfed EmpSeals from 3% to 1%. Now Second Wind is 3x stronger and we might end up playing like a DK/Enhance with FV dumb damage gameplay.

Sweet huh?
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#4164670 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 08 July 2014 - 02:26 PM

No, it's gone for us.
Damagepush is only possible through AV, Glyhe "Word of Glory" and 4pc PvP-Set bonus. Goes up from 100% to >140% if everything is up.

Add Crøno ;D

I'll miss Guardian...

And if you look at the numbers I gave you, you'll see that our melee damage (auto attack, CS) is higher and our ranged damage (Exo, judge) is lower.

Our damage SHOULD be about the same, but most of us on beta agree it's REALLY LOW. We just can't kill someone and if we're not with EmpSeals, we get killed eventualy. I think our baseline survivabiltiy should go like 5% up, with EmpSeals Insight 5% down and overall damage about 10% up at least.

Interesting fact, Blizz is nerfing Ret ranged to buff melee...

Anyway, they keep saying Ret is only getting number tweeks and if done right, we'll be OK - except for RBGs of course.
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#4164448 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 08 July 2014 - 02:17 AM


I have a little question, while playing with the empowered seals talent is it possible to stack seal of truth ap buff with seal of insight healing buff ?

Thanks in advance for your reply,

Yup. DoT + Attack Speed + Healing + Movement Speed if you spend 90% of the time swapping. Everything stacks.

But, swaps take GCDs and overwhelm your mind. So, use wisely ;D
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#4164445 Ret on Beta

Posted by Crono_Smash on 08 July 2014 - 02:13 AM

Thanks Animefreak =D

Pasting what I got so far:



MoP = Live 5.4, Full Conquest Gear, with Inq up and Might
WoD = Beta 6.0, Full Conquest Gear, with Might
The middle line, is how much it suposed to be if only the squish were applied. (MoP/100*43)

Life = Health Pool
Dif% = The % difference between both servers (so the squish is should make all numbers be 43% of the original)
Crit, Mast = Obvious, strait from character panel
Exo CD = Obvious too, just so we know how much slower ou rotation will be (15%)
ExoD = Damage of Exo
Judge, Auto Attack, CS, Hand of Light, FoL, WoG, TV = the respective damage of each

Still, with EmpSeals we're near indestructible on duels because of insight healing + justice kite.

Overall, our damage is WEAK and healing STRONG. Must be fixed soon, and seriously.

Other info:

- Can cast 4 to 5 FoL on sequence.

-Sacred Shield or Eternal Flame can multistrike, please describe the mechanism.
SS cannot Multistrike, EF can.

-Youtube lots of duels
Made a video, gonna take some time to upload/etc. So as soon as possible.

-In comparison to ret paladins current capability of healing, do we heal more or less?
Without EmpSeals, just a little more than on live but with Insight EmpS, we’re indestructible.

-Do you think it is possible to outheal some dps as long as they don't have CD's up?
Yeah, with EmpSeals.

-Do eternal flame or sacred shield look any good?
Not enough. SS is absorving 10k of 250k healthpool and EF ticking for 1k.

-If you freedom yourself two times in a row while sitting any CC, will the duration be reduced by both freedoms or just by the first?
It’s really, not a stackable but all CCs with it active are reduced.
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