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Jinngofagswag

Member Since 04 Nov 2012
Offline Last Active Today, 02:39 PM
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#3849040 Balance is not the biggest problem, systems are

Posted Thaya on 14 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

Foreword: please read the entire post before commenting. I was a little bit too quick to post it, and as a result of adding ideas and thoughts to it, it's now a little hard to follow: I start with an example before explaining the main problem (inductive reasoning). All the important stuff is at the end.

Ever since WotLK ended, I've had the opinion that the problem of WoW PvP is not balance, but the systems. In fact, the things I'm going to talk about have always been in place, I just didn't notice them because I enjoyed random battlegrounds, skirmishes and 2v2 up until Cataclysm. I don't want to make this a nostalgia thread or a rant on bringing back skirmishes, but a few words have to be said about skirmish: reintroducing skirmish arenas, with the way the game has evolved since they were last active, would be a stupid decision. Back in WotLK individual skill was a much bigger factor than it is today - this is both due to developer decisions and players getting much better in these 4 years - arena is all about team synergy now, individual skill doesn't even fascinate anybody anymore. A single player just won't be able to make enough of a difference on his own to make it fun in the slightest, perhaps with the exception of one or two specs, and I'm not even going to talk about the obvious problem of team compositions and how predictable it will be. If they are reintroduced in the original implementation, people will play them for a short while, and then it will just be another dead area of the game.

Let's forget about the other PvP modes for now and focus only on arenas - it is a little game of its own, there's nothing that feels or plays quite like it, and it has a community of its own.

A huge problem with the arena system is that there is only one, ranked, mode. I believe it applies to everybody, or at least the vast majority, that you're not always in the mood to play serious, to play to win. And I believe every arena player has been in a situation where you wanted to try playing with some other people or your friends - just for fun - but couldn't due to being locked to their "serious" team. The real reason people want skirmishes back is because arena players simply don't have anything to do when they're not in the mood to play serious, or when their team mates are offline, or whatever other reasons not to play ranked. Ever noticed how many people buy Arena Pass just to be able to mess around without putting their live ratings in danger? it's always a very short sparkle of interest, because AP isn't really that good of a solution, but it's a good example of what people want.

And so, why not do the obvious thing, the thing that exists in several other super popular games?

Unranked mode.

Give it a a matchmaking system to match equal teams, but no ladder and no statistic tracking at all. No need for teams too, just let any party of 3 queue for it, even cross realm parties. Characters will still have MMR attached to them, and the average of that MMR will be used for the party - imagine it as if a temporary arena team is created. It just won't matter, it won't give rewards, it won't be displayed on the UI, the matchmaking system will extend its search range a lot quicker (aim for 2-3 min queues tops, even at the cost of equal matchups), and there will be no competition based around it. An organized skirmish, that's exactly what it should feel like.

Firstly, this will be a less serious environment to play in for the veterans, a polygon to run new teams or just play for fun, something you can queue any time of the day carelessly, something you don't have to commit to. And secondly, this would be a wonderful thing for new PvP players. It's just like the real thing, but without the pain of losing; I know people who tried arena, sucked due to being new, and never touched it again because they just kept losing. WoW arena has a very steep learning curve at least due to the amount of information you need to memorize and get used to before you really feel like you understand what's going on, being put straight into a competitive environment makes it that much harder; on top of that, gear is a much bigger factor than it's ever been, but let's discuss this another time.

Now, since I've touched the subject of new players... Let's go back to the real world where PvP isn't just arenas. The general consensus on AJ is "who cares about random BGs", but it is so much more important for the game overall than people think. Random BGs is the first place people unfamiliar with PvP go to, not only because of gear, but because it's the only type of PvP you can queue solo for. This is where they get their opinions about the PvP side of the game, and do you honestly think it's a good one if every second active poster here is botting, and some of you even actively support it? If I continue this subject I'll have to repeat myself a lot from an earlier thread about honor and battlegrounds, but key points were: the honor grind must be shortened A LOT, it's totally wrong that getting starter PvP gear takes so long; winning/losing shouldn't be as important as it is (random is random); and botting should be at least risky and more complex to use than it is today.

Another problem with the systems is how weird the matchmaking system is. Why do you sometimes not get a high rated team from your realm that you KNOW is queueing, and instead get 10 min queues into a team 700 rating below you? Why do you sometimes experience the opposite and get the same team 3-5 times in a row when you KNOW there's other teams queueing, and you even have to sit and wait for them to finish their game when they bump into somebody else? Why do battlegroups still exist even though it's been many years since it's possible for cross battlegroup matchups? all battlegroups do now is slow down queues for everybody and give out free rank 1 titles from 5v5 shares. Why does it take years to fix an exploit in the RBG MMR system, an exploit that people made thousands of euro on, and even humiliated Blizzard by making 5000 rated level 1 characters for the purpose of advertising? Why do RBGs have a much, much better effort:reward ratio in a game that's based entirely around character/gear progression? RBG is easier for the individual player and gives everything that arena does plus more (higher cap), that's wrong on so many levels. Imagine how all of this mess looks like to new players.

It is the oldest and ugliest system in the game by far, it's had so many things built on top of it and patched that it's just an archaic abomination.

There's so many great ideas out there. It doesn't even have to be unranked mode - that's just my take on it and an idea I haven't seen discussed before. Think about weekly challenges/tournaments with rewards - regular 100k gold tournaments would be intense. Introduce observing, at least in ghost mode like on a certain private server, but preferably more like the 5.2 Brawl (can keep it tournament-only). Introduce a best-of-3 mode for it, and allow it to be used in wargames.

Think about getting rid of end of season rewards completely. End of season rewards only promote cheating and boosting by now, and their value as an achievement of skill diminished to the point they're almost irrelevant. You could replace them with the aforementioned tournaments, or do other things like temporary per-season achievements that turn into FoS (f.ex. a new Arena Master per season, Flawless Victor, 2.2/2.4/2.7 per season). You know how fun it is for new players to get a RBG achievement every 100 rating they advance? Imagine if Arena had something similar, and you got Gladiator at say 2.5k, Duelist at 2.2, etc. And the seasons are really short so it doesn't get stale - you don't NEED TO introduce a new title and set of gear every single season.

Think about reintroducing 2v2 in some shape or form (f.ex. with a healing debuff, because right now healer/dps vs healer/dps is impossible), with rewards or achievements to it, especially something for the newer and less experienced players - 2v2 is actually one of the greatest and easiest ways to learn other classes as well as a great way to pass time when bored, it solves nearly every problem I mentioned here.

The way PvP works right now doesn't allow new players to enjoy the game. This is my entire point with this post. The biggest and most important reason that arena activity is dying is that old players are quitting, but no new players are picking up WoW PvP because it sucks to play with randoms and tank down to 1k rating on your first session. There is no "entry level" in WoW PvP, you're thrown straight into ranked 3v3 where you get crushed by people fully geared and most likely with years of experience because WoW PvP hasn't really attracted players for years. THIS is what needs fixing, and it's much more important than balance.

I'm not saying that balance is irrelevant, but no matter how good and balanced the game will be, it will never attract new players if the systems stay the way it is. There's a couple of very good changes in the patch - they fixed gear progression, which was the reason S12 had half the active teams compared to S11 (despite being a fresh expansion), and they also listened to our complaints about rating decay - we haven't even fully acknowledged how huge that change will be. Ultimately I'm making this thread in hopes to motivate them to work the PvP systems more, I imagine it's an easier task than balancing and is more useful at the same time.

Most of these won't even require too much developer work hours, and they won't affect PvE or other parts of the game. You can stick with temporary title rewards or gold and it'll be just fine for us, don't waste your precious developer time on tabards/mounts/pets. We just need a bit of your programmers work hours. Please make PvP fun again.



#3848628 Arena Egos

Posted Dizzeeyo on 13 February 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostGodx, on 13 February 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

I'm almost positive this is your first time access.
and he got it initially playing double healer dk, and has now given up playing all arena in the hope that he gets glad from 5s, so show some respect please :) :) :)


#3848820 Arena Egos

Posted Godx on 14 February 2013 - 04:44 AM

View Postandysc, on 14 February 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

What can I say? I love young boys.
Why you gotta take it to that level? youc ould just be a rapist. no need to bring pedophilia into it as well. It's sad that when someone thinks of a sex offender, they imidiately think of pedophilia when the list of becoming a sex offender is much greater.


#3848470 Arena Egos

Posted Godx on 13 February 2013 - 05:53 PM

View Postkhuna, on 13 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I know ill be remembered as a cheater and I don't give a fuck

Can't believe I actually answered to you disgusting tryhard

You don't give a fuck? but once it all came out, you left the team and repeatedly begged for forgiveness from this community... but clearly you don't give a fuck... you even cried to hydra about it, like actually in tears while talking to him about it... clearly you just don't give a fuck... you even wiped your hard drive after all of this... your fucks given are nonexistent


#3848468 Arena Egos

Posted andysc on 13 February 2013 - 05:48 PM

View Postkhuna, on 13 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

You know yourself that I didn't fake those ID right ?but you're just trying as hard as you can cause thats the only thing you could use to reach me you fucking disgusting tryhard

Im a complice in a way maybe cause I didn't give a fuck back then I even quitted WoW pretty much when this happened, I don't give a fuck about what you or anyone else thinks about that either I have nothing to be ashamed of I talked about it with Hydra.

Im not affraid to compete I even play this game for that only reason, and non-clueless-retards like you would know that I beat his RMP everytime ive faced him in cata, even in tournament.

I know ill be remembered as a cheater and I don't give a fuck most of the community playing this game are so bad that they can't even recognise good play from average play on streams and cause there isnt enough tournaments to show them who the best players are like in other games.

Can't believe I actually answered to you disgusting tryhard
You don't know anything about me as a player. You have not ever played another game professionally. You have never even played against me. I earned more money from this game than you did through methods that didn't ruin the community and took real competence and skill.

I'm not even going to dignify your reasons for cheating with a response. You cheated, plain and simple. And now of course you don't care whether you cheated or not, because you're so far above me. That's the thing, Khuna: you're not above me. You're not above anyone. You have no honor, no dignity, no pride and no accomplishments because you're a lying, toxic player who is a cancer to this community.

It isn't you who's ashamed of talking to me, young Khuna. Quite the contrary! At least Mugems, Conrad and co. had some competence to speak of, although they were still corrupt. You're just a big fish in a small pond - but this is the ocean. You can't survive here, period. You lost the moment you said, "I just don't give a fuck" - what a boring argument made by a common thief.

PS: I love how your bragging rights begin and end with you simply stating you beat Hydra's RMP in some venue where you can't really prove it. Did you take screenshots too? Classic Duelist behavior. Who cares? I don't even know Hydra. I just know he's more worthy of my respect(such as it is) than you'll ever be. Know why? Because there's no evidence that he had to cheat to get what he has - which is more than your Basic Gladiator ass will ever be able to say.

Gonna wrap this up with a quote from you:

View Postkhuna, on 13 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Im a complice



#3848458 Arena Egos

Posted andysc on 13 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

View Postkhuna, on 13 February 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

lmfao what a fucking moron never seen someone trying that hard that clueless and wrong about pmuch everything he says, your'e even worse than godx which is pretty fucking hard to reach, and I didnt even read all of your walls of texts
this forum just became a trash place for ppl like that to spread their bullshit

dont even know why ure wasting ur time answering to this tard seriously talb

report&ban me I don't care I dont feel like the right to post on this forum means anything when morons like this guy are allowed to too,
not even talking about godx he's just a retarded kid/bad troll that will grow up eventually but this guy believes his bullshit, some next lvl insanity right here
Can you offer up one reason or explanation as to why you'd have the fake ID of someone on your computer?

Someone whose team was ahead of yours?

Someone whose account was subsequently hacked?

And later, the evidence mounted so extremely that you left the team because of it?

Best cast scenario your teammates(YOU) cheated and you knew about it, then they got caught. You're still an accomplice. Worst case you're a criminal, a cheater and you do not deserve any respect or courtesy at all whatsoever. Until anyone has any evidence against me that is as staggering as the evidence against you, you should be stricken from the record forevermore. You're a cheater, dude. It isn't even like you used steroids to win something, it's like you stole your competitor's identity and racked up a bunch of debt so they couldn't buy a plane ticket to come to the event.

Scumbags who are too afraid to compete should never be given any respect, period. Mark my words, Khuna: you're going to be remembered as a cheating, lying fuck if I have anything to say about it.


#3848455 Arena Egos

Posted Galaleo on 13 February 2013 - 05:21 PM

View Postkhuna, on 13 February 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

lmfao what a fucking moron never seen someone trying that hard that clueless and wrong about pmuch everything he says, your'e even worse than godx which is pretty fucking hard to reach, and I didnt even read all of your walls of texts
this forum just became a trash place for ppl like that to spread their bullshit

dont even know why ure wasting ur time answering to this tard seriously talb

report&ban me I don't care I dont feel like the right to post on this forum means anything when morons like this guy are allowed to too,
not even talking about godx he's just a retarded kid/bad troll that will grow up eventually but this guy believes his bullshit, some next lvl insanity right here

wouldnt spit on godx if he saw him on the street (this guys words) , yet obsesses over him online. ok.

I think you say his name in every post, you should ask him on a date. You guys could hold hands and tell stories about how good you were in Cata.


#3846621 Transferring to other BGs for R1

Posted Andreirl on 09 February 2013 - 04:22 AM

View Postflannelsoff, on 09 February 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

what about warriors stuck on 2300 as kfc on easy bgs :duckers:
what about DKs who RBG to 2800 and think they are god mode?
PS good term "stuck" when my team disbanded to leave BG


#3847719 backwater BG cockblock fund

Posted Donald on 11 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

know someone that payed $25 for a xfer to an indonesian battlegroup for r1 in 3v3 or 5v5, just to pay another $25 to be on the main server next season?

or maybe you just look at a team and think "do i rly want to see these ppl wear this title next season?"

want to chip in to see them get passed?

donate to the don bongwater BG cockblock paypal fund and i will assemble a squadron to turn their r1 into a r2 (which isn't even glad this season, r2 = duelist). scout's honor.

vote on the BG and the bracket:

http://us.battle.net.../The KFC Dream/

http://us.battle.net...ge forever ere/

http://us.battle.net...3v3/we do this/

http://us.battle.net...good season gg/

http://us.battle.net....net.../3v3/kfc is op/

http://us.battle.net...v3/all day bro/

http://us.battle.net...din to be cool/

http://us.battle.net...aybe this time/
(how does this "r1" team have this many losses)

http://us.battle.net...Dunkin on Kids/
(who are these ppl)

http://us.battle.net...5v5/Classmarks/

http://us.battle.net...5/cinco mundas/

http://us.battle.net......<br /><br />

PM me for the paypal address...


#3847383 5.2 PAYBACK TIME

Posted Nisslol on 11 February 2013 - 04:49 AM

View Postoriginn, on 11 February 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

wait you are comparing monk rogue shaman and rps to kfc and godcomp? what

I see you have a problem targetting healers bro. If you complain about rogues this season you're just plain dogshit and thats the truth, other rogues manage. Try asking any rshaman healer how they feel playing vs RPS.


#3847380 5.2 PAYBACK TIME

Posted Nisslol on 11 February 2013 - 04:42 AM

Lol, really you're still going on with this "x comp is hard to play" shit? Not a single comp (out of the viable ones obviously, not talkign about triple disc) takes much skill as long as you have gear and partners, you calling KFC or Godcomp retarded as a rogue where you have comps like monk/rogue/shaman or spriest/rogue/shaman that only require you to not actually be afk to win is fucking fantastic. Tell me more.

Posted Image


#3847375 5.2 PAYBACK TIME

Posted [email protected] on 11 February 2013 - 04:27 AM

View Postoriginn, on 11 February 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

obviously is your flaming the result of the amount of dicks u take?
you've still yet to provide proof of these screenshots, please do. Until then you can simply bow your head in shame to the god king paladin known as Helio.


#3847370 5.2 PAYBACK TIME

Posted [email protected] on 11 February 2013 - 04:19 AM

View Postoriginn, on 11 February 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

kfc and tsg are fucking hard...wait what

apparently it's hard for you, if the comp was enough to make you stop playing, chump.


#3847551 Arena Egos

Posted Virent on 11 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

View Postandysc, on 11 February 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

edit: A GREAT example of this is Khuna and Reckful. Khuna is a tryhard who barely speaks any language, cheats to get ahead, is in threads like this groveling with 12 time Duelists and acting like he's the best. Ever see Reckful do any shit like that? Nah, because Reckful is an American champion and Khuna is a 9 time Duelist, two time win-trader, one-time Gladiator who has to commit real life crimes for in-game achievements.

Reckful is from the only country to ever be back to back World War champs, Khuna is from the only country that has lost more wars than Germany. Look at what a pathetic moron he is, lol.

Hard to act like a badass when you have to try and steal someone's identity to get the achievements they have in a game because you know you could never, ever beat them. No such thing as halfway crooks, bro. You're shook.

Now, it could be just me but, people that make instructional videos and actually try to help out players improve don't tend to be elitist, so I don't see where you actually got the whole "acting like he's the best". From what I've seen from Khuna's posts and streams, he actually seems like an alright guy and actually hates elitism in general.

If anything, your post is actually so stupid that I don't even have the words to express it. Even bashing and judging someone for their country is just proof of how sad you really are.

As for the whole cheats to get ahead, based on his play and in general his RMP with Zunniyaki and Xandyn's play at the time, they were gonna actually get R1 if Hydra ever queued because of them playing much better than Hydra's RMP, but Hydra camped that R1 spot for like 8 months. And he didn't even stay in the team after Hydra's team got hacked.


#3847535 Arena Egos

Posted andysc on 11 February 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostThugjitsu, on 11 February 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

People who treat others like that are insecure social retards who wouldn't even dare being that way out of game.  For one reason or another they feel that acting like an elitist gives them some self worth, when in reality it turns them into an even bigger and bigger idiot each time.

Ive trained and fought with some of the top fight teams/gyms in this country and very rarely do I see top fighters acting like they are better than anyone else or unwilling to engage with some of the lower level guys, so when I see it in a video game I cant help but laugh.

If people took a step back for a second and put themselves in the other persons shoes, they might think twice about acting like egotistic faggots and be a little nicer, which in turn might gain them some respect for being a good person instead of being respected because of an in game achievement...
Hey, moron:

Your name is, "Thugjitsu." Your posts all have very mildly veiled elitism in them. (Fought in the best gyms; with the best teams; know the best guys; can't help but laugh) You took the time to upload a picture of someone, supposedly you, kicking a heavy bag? Are you serious? You're worthless. Stop trying.

Lots of, "top fighters" are completely arrogant douchebags, like you're trying to be. The only problem is you can't. You're too shitty at WoW to have any bearing in the conversation here, and you're what.. going to fight professionally? Please. Lots of people who have been the best at things since history has been recorded have been hugely insecure, paranoid and even downright tyrannical.

Could you beat Mike Tyson at anything? Didn't think so, the dude is a crazy elitist prick. That is what it takes to be the best for some people. This game isn't even a PvP game, and it's so easy to get highly rated over and over again and your only achievement is one Gladiator title as a Warrior in season 9.

Drop your act, pal. You're nobody. You don't know anybody famous. You don't fight them. You're not in good shape. You're some scumbag who took one kickboxing class running around here now like the movie First Blood was inspired by your real life. You want people to take a step back and realize that your fake real life achievements are better than their fake in-game achievements? I'm sorry, but they're not.

There are two types of people who compete:

1) Generally gifted people with real, inalienable talent - champions. Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, Michael Jordan, Lance Armstrong, etc

2) Insecure people whose paranoia makes them so self-aware that they fix all of their deficits enough to be considered good or decent, never rising to champion status - Eli Manning, etc

Which category do most people who play this game fall into? The second, obviously. Now, why is that do you think? Well for starters, World of Warcraft simply isn't competitive at all, so the second category really thrives in a setting where the boundaries of victory and success are so easily muddied. And second, why would a champion play this game? You can't even be the best at it. You could literally log on right now and be the absolute best that there has ever been at one class only to find that a patch coming tomorrow, next week, next month makes you obsolete. Why would any truly talented person subject themselves to that?

They wouldn't, so you fall into that category. Gladiator one time as a Warrior in S9 - need I say more? No one cares about your mixed martial arts background. You're a fucking joke. You'd think you'd have a Medal of Honor with how much of your post was dedicated to something you do as a hobby. You're a nerd, dude.

So why don't you spare us your tips from the bottom, throw on a Tapout shirt and fuck off.

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edit: A GREAT example of this is Khuna and Reckful. Khuna is a tryhard who barely speaks any language, cheats to get ahead, is in threads like this groveling with 12 time Duelists and acting like he's the best. Ever see Reckful do any shit like that? Nah, because Reckful is an American champion and Khuna is a 9 time Duelist, two time win-trader, one-time Gladiator who has to commit real life crimes for in-game achievements.

Reckful is from the only country to ever be back to back World War champs, Khuna is from the only country that has lost more wars than Germany. Look at what a pathetic moron he is, lol.

Hard to act like a badass when you have to try and steal someone's identity to get the achievements they have in a game because you know you could never, ever beat them. No such thing as halfway crooks, bro. You're shook.




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