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Member Since 20 Mar 2012
Offline Last Active Dec 11 2013 12:13 AM

#3928148 Trying to put these stupid accusations to rest

Posted flannelsoff on 19 August 2013 - 12:37 AM

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#3874666 Using fear to your advantage in arena

Posted Guest on 13 April 2013 - 04:26 AM

Hey all, I've been thinking about a certain topic the past couple days and I would like to share it with you guys here. First of all, this topic is not about fear as an ability or a crowd control, but as an emotion.

To start, let's talk about what is scary in arena. There are a couple things that are really scary in arena. One is losing control of your character at a time where you think someone might die. The other is taking a large amount of damage in a short period of time. Emotions play a big factor into how well one plays in arena. If you are frightened you are likely to use cooldowns before they are necessary. If you are angry, you are likely to be too busy being angry to remember to use a cooldown or help out a teammate. *Keep in mind something that is NOT scary is doing skilled fancy things. No one is scared of you trying to shadowmeld their scatter shot, but they are scared of high burst damage.*

I think fear is one of the most difficult emotions to deal with. It causes you to use stuff before necessary AND when you let your emotions in the way important parts of the game start to become less important to you. The first one to go is always your positioning. When I'm scared of dying I'm generally playing way back by my healer just kiting away from the enemy. Working towards a kill becomes less important than trying to survive the next burst or whatever might kill me. Next I feel a team's offensive pressure drops when fast kills happen to them. They start to think defensively and forget about going for the kill.

What makes things scary? I think surprise plays a big role in making something scary. Also, when something feels insurmountable and you feel helpless it becomes scary. Taking 2 back to back Eviscerate crits for 130k, 130k is something that comes to mind as scary. Dying in a single deep freeze when you still had cooldowns is scary.

Most of this is obvious, so let's talk about the more interesting part. How can you use fear to your advantage in arena? I think there are certain players whose success has been fueled by fear. I will use the Mage class as an example. There are many good mages I play against on the ladder and the top few of them all have a completely different playstyle. One of them (namely, Watchmeblink) has a playstyle that is feared by many players that fight him. He is absurdly aggressive and willing to sacrifice any defense as offense to get to you and kill you. I remember when I first fought his RMP in Cataclysm. My playstyle changed so much against RMP after a few matches - simply because they were killing us in the opener nearly every time. Because of how scary those games were, I started playing really defensive against them until their pressure went down and we could get pressure and get a kill. The game isn't in a state where I feel waiting for the enemy to run out of pressure in the opener matters anymore, so that strategy has died now.

Anyway, point being: Watchmeblink is a great example of someone who uses fear to his advantage in arena. I guarantee you any healer that fights him thinks real hard about trinketing the first Deep Freeze or first Polymorph that he lands in the opener where against most Mages it wouldn't even be a question to sit. As soon as someone dies in a scary manner they are going to change how they play next time to try to stop that from happening again. Generally this means they will be more defensive and use cooldowns much earlier than needed, and in some rare cases they will play recklessly aggressive because they have come up with no other solution.
*Here's a couple VoDs I found of Watchmeblink doing Watchmeoneshotpeople things if you don't know of him*

In my own games throughout the years I've detected this fear happening with teams that I've faced a bunch of times and beaten as well as after losing a bunch of times with my own teams. Sometimes I'll lose a few times and then lose harder the next 5 games because I'm too worried about defensive and not about getting a kill. I'm sure this has happened to other teams/players as well. I can't say I've really taken advantage of knowing my team is instilling fear in our opponents, but it is an interesting topic to consider.

This was quite a long-winded idea, but I thought it was worth sharing with you guys. What I'm looking for from you now is to tell me how you think fear plays a role in arena and how you think fear has affected your play over the course of the game.

#3860169 Eldacar's 5.2 Guide to PVP Power & Resilience

Posted WildeHilde on 11 March 2013 - 01:04 PM

Eldacar's Guide to PVP Power & Resilience

This guide is written by Eldacar and was posted in the General Section of this forum. I think however that it's worth to put it on the frontpage again as many players did not see the updated version, yet. Thanks to Eldacar for an amazing guide.

Hello everyone, I have written this guide to provide the player base with an in-depth understanding of how the PVP Power and Resilience stats work for level 90 players in Mists Patch 5.2.

- This guide is written for level 90 players, the numbers are different at lower levels.
- Resilience scaling was changed in Mists patch 5.2 from increasing returns to linear. For a comparison of the old vs new scaling see Appendix C.
- The guide just underwent a major update and revision, if you notice a typo or error please let me know!


-Resilience has linear returns, +100 Resilience rating increases your effective health by 1.42% relative to displayed health. (+70.425~ increases EH by 1%)
-PVP Power has linear returns, +265 PVP Power gives you +1% damage/healing in PVP)
-PVP Power does not "cancel out" a target's Resilience but it will still help you hit them harder.
-You can get a significant increase in Resilience through gemming.
-Resilience is better than Stamina for increasing survivability.
-Resilience is stronger than PVP Power point for point by a fair margin.
-I cannot tell you definitively if you should gem PVP Power, Resilience, or something else, it depends on your class, spec, and playstyle. Look at guides written by pros of your class for gemming advice.

Table of Contents:

Section 1 - Resilience

1A - The Exponential Returns of Damage Reduction
1B - The Diminishing Returns of Resilience Rating
1C - Baseline Damage Reduction
1D - Effective Health
1E - Resilience Graphs and Independent Scaling

Section 2 - PVP Power, Stat Interaction, and Combined Scaling

2A - The Absolute vs Relative Returns of PVP Power
2B - PVP Power's Interaction with Resilience
2C - PVP Power Vs Baseline Damage Reduction
2D - Combined Stat Scaling of PVP Power and Resilience

Section 3 - Gemming for PVP

Section 4 - Closing Thoughts and Remarks

Section 5 - Appendix

Appendix A - Valuation and Frame of Reference
Appendix B - Formulas

Appendix C - Resilience Change in 5.2

Section 1 - Resilience

Everyone reading this likely already has at least a general understanding of how Resilience works, it's fundamental purpose is to provide percentage based damage reduction against all damage done by players, the more Resilience you have the less damage you take. That is fairly straightforward and easy to understand, however understanding how the stat scales and all the factors at work is more complicated.

There are four main factors that go into how Resilience scales, first is the exponential returns of percentage based damage reduction, second is the diminishing returns of Resilience rating, third is the baseline 40% reduction that all players have in PVP, and fourth is it's interaction with PVP Power. Only the first three factors will be examined in this section, the fourth; interaction with PVP Power is looked at in Section 2.

Section 1A - The Exponential Returns of Damage Reduction

The effects of percentage based damage reduction scale exponentially, the more you have the more valuable additional damage reduction becomes. For example, let's say someone is hitting you for 100 damage, if you have 0% damage reduction and you add 1% that 100 damage is reduced to 99 damage, a 1% effective reduction. However if you already have 90% damage reduction and you add another 1% that 100 base damage which was already reduced to 10 is now further reduced to 9. That change in incoming damage from 10 to 9 is a 10% reduction in actual damage taken by adding just 1% of damage reduction.
Here is a graph that shows how the value of damage reduction increases as you gain more:

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As you can see at 50% damage reduction additional reduction is worth twice as much as normal, at 90% its worth ten times as much as normal. This kind of scaling isn't unique to Resilience, armor and any other percentage based damage reduction (even in other games) function the same way, games control the overall scaling of these mechanics by manipulating how fast you are awarded the damage reduction.

One additional note on this, in World of Warcraft different damage reduction mechanics have multiplicative relationships NOT additive, what that means is that the value scaling for any one of these mechanics is only accurate within that one mechanic. At 50% damage reduction from Resilience an extra 1% from Resilience is effectively worth 2%, however none of this has any bearing on the value of additional damage reduction from say armor, that scales totally independently but in a similar fashion. Because these defensive stats scale independently from each other and have a multiplicative relationship they can each be examined and valued independently.

Section 1B - The Diminishing Returns of Resilience Rating

For Resilience the main factor that counters the exponential scaling of percentage based damage reduction is the diminishing returns on Resilience rating. The more Resilience rating you have, the less damage reduction is awarded by each additional point of rating. This is how Blizzard controls the overall scaling of Resilience as a whole, and it is what they change when they want to alter the way Resilience scales.

Currently at lvl 90 the rate at which the returns from Resilience rating diminish exactly cancels out the rate at which the relative value of damage reduction increases, as a result the net effect of Resilience has linear returns. Adding 100 Resilience rating will always increase your effective health by 1.42% relative to your displayed health.

Section 1C - Baseline PVP Damage Reduction

Mists of Pandaria added two new factors to the way Resilience scales, one of them is the baseline 40% PVP damage reduction that all players have. What this has effectively done is significantly shrink the damage reduction gap between under geared players and fully geared players compared to Cataclysm. In Cataclysm the damage reduction range on gear before gems was roughly 0-45.5%. In Mists that range shrank to 40-59%, so while the gear is still providing a solid increase in survivability it provides fully geared players much less of an advantage compared to Cataclysm.

Section 1D - Effective Health

Before you can understand most of the graphs in this guide you need to understand what effective health is. Effective health is essentially how much pre-mitigated damage it takes to kill you. If you have 100k health and 0% damage reduction your effective health is just that same 100k. However if you have 100k health and 50% damage reduction your effective health is 200k, because someone would need to do the equivalent of 200k pre-mitigaged damage to kill you.

It is also important to note that more than just increasing the size of your effective health pool, that damage reduction also increases the relative effectiveness of heals on you. With 50% damage reduction a 1k heal actually restores 2k of effective health, this is one of the reasons why having a larger effective health through damage reduction is better than having a larger displayed health through stamina.

Because effective health is such a great indicator of survivability it is also a great metric to use for evaluating the overall effectiveness of Resilience, which is why I used it in these graphs. It is really the stat that best indicates the value you are getting from Resilience and the stat you need to be paying attention to in the graphs. Effective health is displayed on the graphs as a percentage relative to displayed health, an effective health (EH) value of 150% for a player with a 100k displayed health pool would mean that player has an effective health from just Resilience of 150k. (When you factor in other effects like armor and damage reduction from talents your EH is higher but we are just looking at Resilience by itself here)

Section 1E - Resilience Graphs and Independent Scaling

Now that we have gone through all of the critical factors at work it is time to get into the graphs. This first graph displays the scaling of damage reduction and effective health based on Resilience rating at level 90 in patch 5.2. Keep in mind these graphs show the scaling of Resilience before the effects of PVP Power are factored in, so it is effectively your damage reduction and effective health vs a player in full PVE gear.

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As you can see in this graph, as you gain more Resilience you get less and less damage reduction per Resilience rating, however your effective health continues in a linear fashion anyway. Make note of the fact that there is NO Resilience cap, you are only limited by the amount of Resilience you can actually manage to get on your gear.

Section 2 - PVP Power, Stat Interaction, and Combined Scaling

PVP Power is a new stat introduced to the game in Mists of Pandaria which acts as the offensive compliment to Resilience. The idea behind this new stat is to encourage players to use PVP gear in PVP by putting major PVP-only offensive gains onto PVP gear (or in the case of healers, healing gains). PVP Power increases all damage done to players (under all circumstances), and healing done (while outside PVE-instances), by a percentage that increases based on how much PVP Power rating you have. There has been a lot of confusion on the forums as to how PVP Power works and particularly how it interacts with Resilience, hopefully I can clear some of that up here.

Before we dive in thought I would like to note that this guide focuses primarily on the +damage aspect of PVP Power because the +healing aspect does not have an easily quantifiable relationship with the other aspects of the PVP stats. However I want to point out that you will only get a fraction of the damage bonus as a healing bonus depending on your class and spec.

Section 2A - The Absolute vs Relative Returns of PVP Power

Unlike Resilience, PVP Power's scaling is very straight forward. It has linear returns when looking at it in an absolute sense, adding 265 PVP Power will always give you another +1% damage/healing in PVP. So every additional point of PVP Power will increase your damage/healing by the same amount. However I have seen some players around the forums describing PVP Power as having diminishing returns, and they are correct to an extent.

If you evaluate the returns of PVP Power in a relative sense it does have diminishing returns, going from 0%-1% will give you the same absolute damage increase as going from 30-31%, but in the latter case that damage increase is smaller relative to the damage you are already doing. This is a valid way of evaluating the data mathematically, but it is not very useful in practice.

Virtually everything in the game operates the same way, think about primary stats for example; +300 strength would give a warrior a pretty nice bump in damage right now, but if Blizzard said "Hey we like you random warrior!" and bumped their strength up to 100,000 that +300 strength would suddenly be worth a lot less to them even though it would still increase their damage by the same amount.

The  reality is that in order for a stat to offer you consistent relative gains as you gear up the stat would need to have increasing absolute returns, in other words it would need to give you more and more damage the more of it you got.
(For more info on absolute vs relative valuation see Appendix A)

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PVP Power's returns are perfectly linear, you gain 1% damage/healing for every 265 PVP Power.

Section 2B - PVP Power's Interaction with Resilience

The most common misconception that most players seem to have about PVP Power is that it acts as a kind of "Resilience Penetration" which counteracts the target's Resilience 1 for 1, that is simply not true. PVP Power increases your damage by the percentage shown in your stat pane, it always increases it by that same amount regardless of how much Resilience the target has. The target's Resilience then mitigates that incoming damage based on how much damage reduction that target has.

Take for example a warrior who's swing always does 100 damage per swing in PVE. This warrior gets a +50% damage increase from PVP Power in PVP, so that 100 damage get's increased to 150 damage in PVP. This warrior has now decided to attack a paladin that looked at him the wrong way. The paladin has +50% damage reduction from his Resilience, so when the warrior's 150 damage hits him it is reduced to down to 75. That is how PVP Power and Resilience interact, the outgoing damage is boosted up by PVP Power, then the total incoming damage is mitigated down by Resilience.

Section 2C - PVP Power Vs Baseline Damage Reduction

This next graph shows the effective damage of various PVP Power amounts against a target that has nothing but the baseline PVP damage reduction of 40%.

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What is immediately apparent here is that you need an enormous amount of PVP Power (pretty much the max possible) in order to cancel out just the BASELINE damage reduction all players have.

Section 2D - Combined Stat Scaling of PVP Power and Resilience

This final graph is a bit more complicated than the previous graphs, it shows the combined scaling of PVP Power and Resilience. The metrics represent the effective damage and effective health of two players with roughly equivalent gear fighting each other across the entire gear scale. At the left end it shows a player with no PVP Power vs a player with baseline Resilience. At the right end it shows a player with the typical max PVP Power vs a player with max Resilience.

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This graph indicates that as players gear up Resilience is boosting up player effective health faster than PVP Power is boosting up player damage. Which also means that Resilience is still a stronger stat than PVP Power by a fair margin, even when comparing just 10K Resilience to 18K PVP Power Resilience is still stronger, meaning point for point it isn't even a competition.

Section 3 - Gemming for PVP

One of the most popular questions I get is "What should I gem for?" Unfortunately I cannot provide a clear cut answer to that question. The answer is dependent your gear level, class, spec, playstyle and more. My recommendation is to check how the pros of your class/spec are gemming, and then experiment to see what works best for your personal playstyle. The only thing that I can definitively state is that Resilience is SIGNIFICANTLY better for increasing your survivability than Stamina. So if boosting your survivability is the goal, gem Resilience.

Section 4 - Closing Thoughts and Remarks

I hope that this guide has been illuminating for everyone that has taken the time to read it, I have tried to provide as much accurate and detailed information as possible about the way these stats work. If you have questions about these stats or about anything written here feel free to ask and I will do my best to get you an answer.

I error checked this guide many times however I am still human, so if you believe you see an error please let know and I will look into it. I also want to make it clear that although I am a member of Blizzard's Forum MVP program I am NOT a Blizzard employee and nothing in this guide is based on any kind of inside information. All the data in this guide was all generated based on direct in-game observation and calculations based on that observed data.

Section 5 - Appendices

This is some additional information about some of the ideas, concepts, and data discussed in this guide. Additional appendices may be added over time as needed.

Appendix A - Valuation and Frame of Reference

Absolute valuation compares numbers based on addition and subtraction, IE going from 30% damage reduction to 60% damage reduction is an absolute gain of 30%. Relative valuation compares numbers using ratios, IE going from 30% damage reduction to 60% damage reduction is a relative gain of 100%. Why is this important? Because taking the example a step further, going from 60% to 90% is an absolute gain of 30%, exactly the same as before, but it is a relative gain of 50%, half as much as before. So if this trend were to continue, it would signify linear absolute returns but diminishing relative returns. This guide primarily uses absolute valuation because it is much easier to understand and work with when comparing a large number of data points to a common baseline.

Frame of reference is another critical concept for evaluating data, particularly when most of the data is in percentages. There are two basic methods that can be used to evaluate a string of data points; constant frame of reference, or progressive frame of reference. Constant frame of reference uses one common baseline value as a reference point, every data point is compared to that baseline. In contrast a progressive frame of reference compares each data point to the data point before it. Take for example this set of data points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. On a graph using a constant frame of reference they would be displayed as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (all data points were compared to a baseline of 0). However on a graph using a progressive frame of reference they would be displayed as 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 (each data point was 1 larger than the number before it).

Using a constant frame of reference makes it much easier to evaluate the actual changes in the progression of a data set, where as using a relative frame of reference allows you to better evaluate changes in the rate of change over the progression of a data set. Since we are more interested in the actual changes than the rate of change when viewing the scaling of stats I chose to use a constant frame of reference for the graphs in this guide.

Appendix B - Formulas

The formula to calculate damage reduction from resilience in patch 5.2 is:
Reduction %  = ((11724*0.4)+x)/(11727+x)
x represents resilience rating, credit for this formula goes to Erdluf (Echo Isles US)

The formula to calculate damage increase from PVP is:
Damage increase %  =  x/265
x represents PVP Power rating

Appendix C - Resilience Change in 5.2

The formula for Resilience was changed in patch 5.2, changing its net scaling from increasing to linear.
Effective health returns from Resilience in 5.2 are now perfectly linear. Anyone with less than 10k Resilience should have seen a slight bump in effective health from the patch, anyone with more should see a slight loss. Going forward Resilience will still be a great, lucrative stat, it will just scale more evenly instead of getting more and more valuable at the high end.

Here is an interactive graph illustrating the difference in resilience scaling between 5.1 and 5.2:

Here is another focusing in on just the changes in damage reduction:

#3858050 Gratz reckful, but no

Posted Knox556 on 06 March 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostReckful, on 06 March 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

i got 2450 on tich with 463 ilvl, maybe more impressive

didn't add shaman for low MMR - my last many games were with cdew's 2700 mmr shaman

bootybpoppin wasn't for low MMR and actually we tanked with him - fought save's TSG and lost 0-5, acebloke's kittycleave and lost 0-5

wasn't scared to fight rank 1 KFC, we actually beat the previous rank 1 KFC 5-0 and tanked them down (2 of those games on youtube).  this new rank 1 KFC i had never seen queue one time, don't know where they came from, and they didn't even queue up once to try to beat us even when volkazar was asleep, they were all online, and i was chain queuing rogue RPS (we didn't lose to a single KFC - we were sniping KFCs - i wanted to fight them).  the hardest counter seemed to be TSG


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#3857638 Respect Bloodx

Posted Bloódx on 06 March 2013 - 01:13 AM

Well first of all,

This is the worst DDOS/BLACKMAIL/REALIDERRORDDOS/WINTRADE season ive ever seen, its worse than when xandyn was here - i seriously hope your team gets reset, but if it doesnt it doesnt bother me that much to be fair -

I picked up 4 non r1 players and qued legit while qing vs supposivly the best 5 players of each class in europe and managed to "beat" them legit, but then they obviously had to cheat.

was alot of fun - sadly it ended in you cheating:/

Piece out

#3847323 5.2 PAYBACK TIME

Posted originn on 11 February 2013 - 02:51 AM

This is how i feel about 5.2 after dealing with warriors

#3773378 OP! - FOTM of MoP?

Posted originn on 17 September 2012 - 11:56 PM

Mages i feel like im back in wotlk."Im ok i have cloak......im deep frozen.........im dead"

#3708547 RLS vs Thug Cleave

Posted Canadianpimp_613638 on 29 May 2012 - 11:37 PM

I would sit by your warlock and shaman and open on the rogue with a bomb regardless of who they go on. Thug cleave has insane openers and this defensive bomb will stop a lot of their opening pressure. I recommend cheap shotting the rogue, to a gouge to a kidney. Here's where you should swap on the hunter with a blind on the priest and a howl on the rogue, which will force at least one trinket. From there, just try and have your shaman hex the rogue on cooldown and you don't really need to touch him. Landing a kill on the hunter can be tough sometimes, so you can swap onto the priest for a kill when you have dance/redirect and your lock has a Soul Swap. Just make sure to have a howl or hex for the rogue though at this time or your swap can backfire. As long as you and your team can predict swaps onto yourself, you shouldn't be in too much danger although Thug Cleave kills rogues better than most comps. Generally you want to wait until the Smoke Bombs and Rapid Fires have been used though before considering swaps to the priest.