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Member Since 01 Jun 2008
Offline Last Active Nov 25 2015 10:14 PM

#4540158 Scripted PvP

Posted Bigmoran on 17 November 2015 - 02:20 AM

I was originally going to post this article on Skill-capped. After some deliberation, I decided it would be better suited for AJ. I needed something meaningful for my 1000th post on this website. Even if you don't read this entire post, try and think about what you REALLY value in PvP. Consider what makes you happy and what makes you feel rewarded. The future of WoW PvP rests in the ability not to create balance, but instead to make the game into a rewarding and enjoyable experience.

I've mentioned countless times in threads and on social media that WoD PvP feels scripted. My attitude is not uncommon. Plenty of other players have also expressed feelings of redundancy in gameplay. Overall, enjoyment of PvP seems to be at an all time low. While quantification of player satisfaction is often difficult to guage, the drop in sub numbers--down to a point in which Blizzard will no longer report them--suggests that less and less people are enjoying World of Warcraft. The goal of this article is to show how the scripted feeling of PvP and the lack of rewarding gameplay has contributed to the growing sentiment that PvP is not nearly as fun as it used to be.

What IS the Script?

I should first explain what I mean by 'scripted.' In order to do this, consider how a script works. A script is a series of relationships between conditional statements. A conditional statement is a simple if, then relationship. Here is an example of how this 'scripted' PvP paradigm might play out in an arena match:

-If the enemy Mage uses Polymorph, then I will use Counterspell
-If the enemy Mage is Counterspelled on Polymorph, then I will use Polymorph.

While this may not seem damaging at first, consider the fact that nearly all of the important decisions we make during an arena game revolve around this algorithmic way of thinking. For every enemy action, there is an optimal player reaction that is determined by the 'script' of PvP. For every matchup, there is one optimal strategy. This makes winning feel significantly less rewarding and meaningful. The script makes arena wins feel less like an experience full of ingenuity and creativity and more like persistent, monotonous labor. If you know exactly how a game will play out, your experience will ultimately suffer.

As an aside, there is one thing that we often shake our fists at in PvP. Although we tend to hate RNG, it is the only thing that interferes with the normal operations of the script. Consider an arena game where two teams perfectly matched. They have exactly the same gear, play on the same latency, and have the exact same strategy. Assume that either team will try its absolute best to score a kill while preventing deaths of its own teammates. Under these conditions, what would determine the outcome of the match? It would have to be RNG! If one team gets a series of critical strikes or multistrikes at the right time, it will allow the match to deviate from its harmonious scripted balance. I should add that RNG (and specifically critical strikes) actually contribute to our enjoyment of the game. Oftentimes players will suggest removing crits from the game. Doing so would be damaging to our enjoyment of gameplay. While it may seem meaningless, scoring critical strikes is one of the most intrinsically satisfying elements of gameplay. We love seeing the big numbers. We are enamored by our own ability to deal damage that lights up as slightly bigger font on our screen. I am not kidding. Big numbers feel better, and in a game we are wanting to feel good.

Holinka's Pacing Argument

Recently, PvP developer Brian Holinka posted on Twitter that the average length of games during the World Championships was five and a half minutes. Loosely veiled behind this metric is the idea that PvP is improving because the duration of tournament games is getting shorter. It is true that spectators want shorter games. During Cataclysm and especially during Mists of Pandaria, many players argued that tournament matches were exhausting to watch. It was quite common in MoP to see two wizard cleaves battle it out for 10-15 minutes in a series that could potentially last five games. All in all this provided for a very boring viewer experience.
The problem with this argument is that the pacing does not matter if the match itself is painfully predictable. If you carefully watch the final series between SK-Gaming and Skill-Capped, you can see just how repetitive the game is during its 5.5 minute average duration. Every 30 seconds, Skill-Capped's RMD does the following things:

-Uses either Bash or Cheapshot on SK's Warrior
-Cyclones SK's Warrior
-Kidney Shots SK's Shaman (the kill target)
-Deep Freezes SK's Druid
-Polymorphs SK's Druid

While there is some degree of variance to how this setup is executed, the fact remains that every 30 seconds the RMD is doing exactly the same thing. So in a five minute game, you can expect the same exact thing to happen over and over and over until SK-Gaming makes a mistake or Skill-Capped falls to the attrition of dampening. And by all means, I'm not blaming either team for playing the way they do. For the most part there is no flexibility with either team's strat. I had the opportunity to talk to Healingstat (Skill-Capped's Druid) and I asked him why they never tried to kill SK's Warrior despite him sitting in Battle Stance for the majority of the game, sometimes without a PvP trinket. His reply was that they had played thousands of games against each other and that the 30-second setup strat on the Shaman is the only strat the consistently works. In other words, deviating from the script of going Shaman is utterly futile. There is no point in playing creatively because it does not win games. (I should add that I also heard that Boetar raged at Joefernandes for intervening a Blind because he "didn't know what to trinket." If there is anything that grossly reinforces the script, this is certainly it.)

Bring Back Reward

Of all the things that threaten WoW's ability to remain the most successful MMO of all time, its the fact that the game itself feels unrewarding. While I feel like the script has definitely contributed to this, there are numerous other examples in which gameplay itself does not feel like a rewarding experience. One instance of this is the conversion of many abilities into passive perks and set bonuses. Nature's Grasp was removed from the game and instead turned into a set bonus connected with use of Barkskin and Ironbark. Cold Blood was also pruned and converted into the four piece set bonus for Assassination Rogues. The real damage of pruning is that it left many of its removed abilities into mechanics attached to other spells. Two abilities became one. Two globals became one. Passives are not fun in virtue of being passive. You do not actually perform them--they just happen. Mages don't look at their Flameglow reducing damage and say, "Man, this is awesome!"

Another gross example of unrewarding gameplay is the conversion of many hardcasted damaging spells into instant cast burst abilities. Ice Nova is an ability that not only removes 50% of your root control, but also tunnel visions gameplay into managing two charges of a boring spell. Casted spells always feel better than instant casts. Hard casting involves risk and should result in high payoff. While I do think the class has some deep seeded balance and design problems, Destruction Warlocks are a perfect example of well-balanced risk/reward. Chaos Bolt is a long cast time that deals large damage. When it successfully lands, the Warlock feels like they have done something that required diligent effort. Compare this with the feeling of using two Ice Novas. There is little to no risk (outside of breaking CC). The ability is pressed and the damage is dealt. End of story.

The Hybrid Problem

While this has been an important point of discussion for ages, something needs to be done to address the strength and role of hybrid DPS in matchups. Hybrid healing was gutted for Balance Druids, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shamans but still remains a problem for Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans, and Retribution Paladins (perhaps WW Monks to an extend as well). These physical DPS classes are able to provide instant cast heals to themselves and their partners and are able to maintain high damage AND healing throughput over the course of a 3v3 match. There is no good reason that an Enhancement Shaman should be able to do 20k DPS in a game while also doing 10k HPS.

Some Nostalgia

Although he is one of the most controversial posters on this site, Bilian's PvP video continues to be one of my favorite PvP videos of all time. The RMP clips remind me of a time where gameplay was creative and each player made unique contributions to scoring kills.

#4518456 Ban advertisements of boosting sites?

Posted Jim_Jim on 11 October 2015 - 10:05 AM

View PostImahacker, on 11 October 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

But if you don't care, why is your french frog lookin ass commenting? :o

I just react to the stupidity of some pretentious justifications here. Like people with high rating and "rank one" should be able to do boost because it's good for the ladder.
In a way, the guy who is at 2500 and do boost for his level is more "punishable" than the guy who have a rank one who should be "able" to do it because of his rank one? Haha.

I don't care of boost, but seeing this poor argumentation when one of your friend got caught is just pathetic. When Volko and Volta got caught during MoP, my only reaction was "Take that, bitch."


Nothing wrong when people want money when they dont have a job, or badly paid one. Noone turns out easy money if you are good enough to finish something so easily. It doesn't matter if they break blizzard's TOS, its an offer only someone that doesnt need it will refuse. Absolutely no point to argue this, blizzard can stop it if they want, but they will hurt themselves by doing that

I know i should rob the grocery near my house when i didn't have a job, the manager was an old women, it was so easy, it doesn't matter if it's illegal, i "needed it", and only a stupid guy can say no to this easy money.

#4518366 Ban advertisements of boosting sites?

Posted Jim_Jim on 11 October 2015 - 08:29 AM


You are all hypocrites, because once you get better you will boost. Every one used to say the same, untill Mohammed sent you 500 euro for shit that takes you 1-3 days.

Some people had good education (which is clearly not the case for most of people here.), and learn to not break the law, or the established rules. Blizzard set rules for their games, you are not the owner of your account, you can't play other account.

Maybe it's good for the ladder.
Maybe it's good for your money.
Maybe "people are too shit to understand lol" (What a brilliant argument by the way, especially the lol at the end, /clap.)

But it's against their rules. Period. So it should be punished.

In my position, it doesn't bother me at all, really, i don't really care of people being boosted or people boosting (After 11 years in this game, i learn to be a complete cynical guy and play now only for me and not for others), good for you if you can earn money by breaking rules, i refuse lots of boosts demand just because i don't want to make this game another job, i already have one. (You know, the thing when you get paid for doing stuff?). When i play a game, it's because i have fun playing. A concept you clearly forgot with your despicable answers and your behavior.

Each person have his own opinion i guess.

#4518198 Ban advertisements of boosting sites?

Posted Beargryllsx on 11 October 2015 - 03:23 AM

Lapeane made a great AJ post so let's check it out!

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

That's common reaction of people who are too shit to boost. When I started playing PVP I was so frustrated about boosts. I blamed boosts for rating lose etc. All I was doing was checking armory of people I lost to and accusing them about being boosted or I was sad that they play on alt (lower rating than real skills). xD

Ok, calling the opposition "too shit to boost" and some teenager memories, very good so far, very nice.

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

99% of people who reached the level when you can get good money from this - boost. And that's the fact.

One would ask for a source on this 99% statistic because it was particularly mentioned as a fact. The problem is, what the fuck is even being said here? Is this an argument?

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Even fucking big streamers boost/boosted, even tho they had thousands of viewers and money from it. That's how it is, you can earn so much if you have many clients. In 1 day you could get 2 weeks salary from normal usual job. Not saying about orders from Arabs even...

It's starting to get really awesome here, imagine being George Clooney, stealing that golden egg from Ocean's 12 (don't watch that - Ocean's 12 is fucking gay) and defending yourself in court with those arguments.

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Imo boosting to R1/Gladiator isn't that bad for others. Many people who boost to glad are just glads, so if you wanna have gladiator yourself you should be able to beat them right?

Almost spot on, except that you don't earn Gladiator by defeating Gladiator players, but by being on a certain spot an a ladder at the end of a season.
Dizzeyo made an example: If there were 500 glad spots and 20 characters were boosted, then 480 characters would get their deservedly earned glad title, 20 pve/archievement guys would get it, and 20 guys who actually played 3v3 arena would get duelist instead.

If you don't understand this, Uegene made another example: Imagine being a 100y dash competitor who wanted to make it to the Olympic finals. Suddenly you realise, 7 obese dudes paid Usain Bolt $200 to run and qualify for them. So it's Usain Bolt and seven fat cripples in the finals. Would that be great (e-)sport? Of course you could not beat Usain Bolt, but you might have a chance to run in the finals which would be a great a experience (glad) nonetheless.

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

And boosting for r1 isn't that bad either cos if they play already on high MMR they meet other r1s. The only boosts that ruin the game are boosts to 2000-2400 for people that are tryharding on 1900.

So the only people not being hurt by boosting are players below 1,9 or above 2,4? That's actually a lot. It's ruining their game, you said it.

View PostLapeane, on 11 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

It's last thing that Blizzard should focus on. Even more stupid thing is that Blizzard bans sold account. They care about things that don't even matter, they have shit game and they focus on catching sellers/boosters. Banning reckful was good PR move as well. 1 of 3 Biggest WoW streamers ever got banned ON stream. They should focus more on their PR moves really xD

Aaaand closing out with nonsesical brabbling, your typical AJ post.

#4518126 Ban advertisements of boosting sites?

Posted Dizzeeyo on 11 October 2015 - 01:02 AM

View Postjaimex, on 11 October 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

my opinion is 420% more relevant than yours lol stfu and break 2k
after seeing you irl, stuff like this doesn't quite have the same kick to it, its a shame :(

#4512300 what a joke joke joke of a company

Posted Ashleyirl on 03 October 2015 - 12:07 PM

honestly cannot BELIEVE what just happened.

so, at a tournament where there is like over $100,000 of prizes, they just disqualified a team 5 minutes before they were due to play.

just consider how much work, effort, time, practise and money those 4 people have invested into this game into practising and everything, its just a disgustingly foul cruel joke

you LITERALLY can't make this stuff up

firstly they fly them to prague, pay for the hotels and everything, then 5minutes before they are due to go on stage and possibly compete for $50,000 they disqualify the team that have one of the best chances of making it to blizzcon.

never seen anything so abysmally organised and conducted, its honestly unbelievable how this company is as successful as it is when it treats its best players so unjustly and disgracefully.

#4508079 Why do you guys take WoW arena seriously?

Posted Nicholaes92 on 27 September 2015 - 04:18 PM

If anyone on this site makes fun of anyone for enjoying this game, whether it's frustrating or not, is a delusional douche bag.  Because it's either you are still playing this game you obviously enjoy it but wanna sound edgy and cool by calling it shit.  Or you don't play and you still lurk the forums dedicated to a game you don't play anymore which is more pathetic than actually enjoying the game in the first place.

#4507851 Why do you guys take WoW arena seriously?

Posted Jim_Jim on 27 September 2015 - 09:15 AM

- Hard to change with 11 years on the same game and character.
- It's fun to play with friends.
- It's a unique style of PvP.
- I don't really like FPS games. (The last one i played online was Unreal Tournament 2004.)
- I tried LoL and i find it extremly boring (The first PvE part, when you have to collect items and gold), i prefer Heroes of the storm in casual mode, way more fun and fast, and game last 20-25min max. Never tried Dota.
- Transmog, pets, and toys.
- Despite all the possible things Blizzard can improve for PvP, i like this game company. You can even say i'm a huge fanboy.
- I like doing arenas.

#4475693 What makes Mage & HPal so strong atm?

Posted Jim_Jim on 14 August 2015 - 10:41 PM

Holy pal alone is not really OP, it is a weird class that rely on multiples CD which always was here, always was easily dispellable since Cataclysm, must cast a lot miserable spells outside of the main healing CD (Wings).

The problem with hpal CD's is that they are in the middle, they are either useless - because you play something that doesn't bring you trashs buffs, or because you play with melees, where most of the time, BoP is just here to remove a stun, and not for protecting from damage because you make your melee friend unable to deal damage -, either completly overpowered because your CD's are here for the full duration. That's, in my opinion, why Blizzard give us 2 charges of our "hands" instead of making them undispellable when hpal were trash during Cata/MoP. Because even with one charge, a full duration freedom would be extremly powerfull.

Why mages? Because mage this xpac are the best tanking spec in the PvP scene, while having TWO different school for cc and an unstoppable burst of instant spells. Which means if you want to stop the mage, you have to use your cs (If your team have it at range), on the mage, leaving the hpal free of cast.
Mages doesn't fear of hunter anymore, and the addition of hpal which is a natural counter of hunter cd's since the nerf of their purge transform the mage of something absolutely unkillable, something not really trainable because they can blink anything, iceblock a dr root, and still having the best mobility/kite tools, unless the mage/hpal team do lots of mistakes, and the hunter teams (I don't know about warlock/hunter) play really good.

The most common team of mage/hpal is with a shadowpriest, which give you more trashbuffs to protect your vulnerable utilities, and a protected and full duration freedom/bop on these 2 wizards is just op. While having extremly good peels because of the shadowpriest grip/mass dispel/ tiny heals, and mages spamable cc's and root.
In my opinion, i think hpal are not as OP as people said, unless they are paired with a mage.

I did last night an extremly good night of arena as ww/dk/hpal, and we didn't face a single holy pal team without mages. The other hpal team (jungle, turbo) feels extremly easy and hopeless compared to the shaman/druid version.

Most of mages/hpal will cry now that rsham/lock can beat them, but they are in the same level of stupidity, trust me.

#4484937 Adding A Solo Queue--

Posted Metaclassx on 25 August 2015 - 01:50 PM

Made a post on this, and how it could be done with minimal (or even a positive) impact to the 3v3 Arena Population on the official forums. Would appreciate it if people gave it a read, contributed to the discussion (if you're unable to, I'm sure that some kind of discussion will appear here) and if you like the ideas give it a +1, a post and tweet it to the devs!


#4484964 Adding A Solo Queue--

Posted Metaclassx on 25 August 2015 - 02:30 PM

View Postdizzcord, on 25 August 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

I only see good things about this.

But yea it'd need to have team templates so you cant be qued as/against lets see double healer( lol ) or double tanks etc

Really good job i strongly approve and hope devs read this.
Yup, DPS/DPS/Healer template would 100% have to be put in.

Personally, I've played another MMO with arenas and it had a solo queue system, I LOVED healing in it. It was so much fun to heal because a good healer made such a huge difference and in solo queue had a big skill cap. Solo queue is fun even when you get bad teammates that rage at you because you can just re-queue and get a different set afterwards. Maybe that's where my perspective comes from, but I've already seen that solo queue can work with minimal effort and blizzard can definitely toss this in and let it flourish.

#4484976 Adding A Solo Queue--

Posted Lolflay on 25 August 2015 - 02:53 PM

Solo queue in MOBAs and CSGO is horrible because you're locked in a game with 4 strangers for the remaining 40 minutes or so.

Solo queue in WoW could revitalize the game because arenas last for a short amount of time, and teammates exchange more rapidly than in League/CSGO/DOTA/etc.

- add solo queue for 3v3 arena

- solo queue rating is separate than premade 2v2/3v3 ratings

- enforce DPS/DPS/Healer template

- add an option to "prefer" a second class you want to be matched with in soloq 3v3 ( so for example, I'm a shadow priest, and I prefer being matched with a Mage - which obviously doesn't mean that I HAVE to get matched with a mage by the system, as to not create stupid queues from people only wanting to queue a specific class combo )

- griefers/afkers should be able to get banned from the system if they continously offend

While they're at it, they should add a proper looking for arena partners system, not the current premade tool we have to use to find partners if we don't know anyone. That system, combined with solo queue matching you with good players around your skill level, would revitalize arena by a lot actually.

#3752005 PROOF @hydrahacked

Posted Drcooperphd on 27 August 2012 - 09:34 PM

#4312986 This game would be so much better

Posted Filthpig on 23 December 2014 - 04:47 AM

This game would be 10x better if non healer specs couldn't heal whatsoever.

#4297554 lots of people are profiting from this

Posted Esiwdeer on 13 December 2014 - 06:15 PM

might as well give it to everyone so it's fair. this is only for alliance, no idea about horde

#1 if you can't get into Ashran you can use your Stopwatch: make sure you're not queued, run into Ashran and start the Stopwatch as soon as the red word "Ashran" pops up to let you know your zone has changed.

Accept the queue right before your stopwatch gets to 22 seconds, it'll let you stay like you got in despite not waiting in the queue

this takes a few tries maybe, only good if you actually can't get into ashran. i did it on my first try but then couldn't do it for 5 tries and then did it again.

#2 Posted Image

if you turn in ONLY A FEW FRAGMENTS AT A TIME(the first option "turn in a few fragments" the lowest amount possible) to this druid ONLY WHEN HE HAS THE BLUE QUESTION MARK, NOT WHEN HE DOESN'T he gives you 125 rep per 5 fragments, essentially letting you get revered in like 45 minutes if you farm rare spawns or something

#3 if you convert your currency to brazilian reals or whatever on the battle.net store you can buy race changes or any other character service for like 40-60% off. i think race changes are 10 and faction changes are 12 something(USD)

certainly these 3 things will not stay in the game, but many people are doing it so i think everyone should be able to skip the rep grind the same

can't explain it better, sorry if you can't find it useful

regards to everyone else