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#4425670 PvP concerns, Dmg/CC/Healing

Posted ProdeGaming on 17 May 2015 - 06:45 PM

Could healing or dmg or CC be overpowered in general? Let's assume that this is clear for most players that they can be.
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Let's pick just one, healing and check a few cases/concerns.
What makes healing overpowered?


Easily recognizable op healing could be, similar to the recently buffed Execution Sentence with Avenging Wrath. It's usually not the gameplay what players would like to see, the target getting healed from 10% back up to nearly full HP instantly.

Basically, talking about a heal that heals for a huge % of HP, often deemed op.


So possible question, does a heal need to heal for high % of HP to become op?
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This heal heals the warrior for only 2% HP, however, if the mage is doing this kind of dmg, this healing is very overpowered.

So a heal needs to heal for high % of HP to become op. No, it does not. It's enough if it's op relative to dmg.

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What else do players not like? Frequent concern is that classes are only good when CDs are up and then feel meh without. Let's stay with holy paladin, during Avenging Wrath, it's amazing but without it's meh.

The healing could look similar as in this example.
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Suggestion is often to reduce effectiveness of Avenging Wrath, so it's not so outstanding compared to the healing without it and compensate this nerf by buffing the regular heals.

So basically, what players are asking for is to not make that peak on the graph so high and to bring those no cd 'meh' heals up to make it a constant decent healing.

Essentially to bring the outstanding lines closer to the overall HPS.
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This is usually the case also when it comes to dmg classes, warriors would like to do good dmg without Avatar Recklessness too and with regular abilities, not just wait for Execute proc. Ferals usually would like bleed dmg get buffed and stuff like Ferocious Bite and Incarnation burst get nerfed etc.
Practically it's the same example graph, only that it's for dmg and not healing.


So the suggestion is that dmg and healing should get closer to the overall HPS and DPS.


What this means is that it could be said about the suggested classes that
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By this, the HPS and DPS of classes give a much better estimate of the classes actual strength.

Is that good? Surely it is, HPS and DPS is most likely relatively easy to balance. For example Hybrids can be much more balanced, because the HPS they gain from abilities can much more easily be evaluated and weighed as a performance gain. Basically when it comes to putting a class together, it can be evaluated much better how much the worth of a Shield Wall or a Gouge is. In fact when it comes to PvP, as soon as CC comes into play, the strength of CC is way easier calculated, as the loss your class' performance suffers is much more constant. While with very spiky dmg and healing, the effect of CC is much less certain and very varying.
So not only does it make the game more enjoyable, but also makes balancing way more convenient and easier, ultimately making the balance better. Because essentially, the closer dmg and healing gets to HPS and DPS, the more precisely they help decode any ability to see its worth, for example to solve the issue of 'this dmg class has this much healing, how much CC or defensive cd should I give the other dmg class to compete with that healing?'.

So now it's just a matter of for example healer HPS within their class roles being balanced, same for DPS.
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Once done, since it's at the beginning of the thread that healing can be op compared to just dmg alone, now HPS and DPS should get compared to each other.


What comparison even? Well it should be balanced for 3v3, so HPS should be about 2x as high as DPS.
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The lower ratio HPS has, the less CC healing needs, since DPS needs less aid to overcome healing.

Jump back to the live game, what is this ratio there? From an around 6.1 calculation, this ratio is about 3:1. That's 150% of the desired HPS. Since it should be around 2:1 to have just a decent amount of CC, 3:1 ratio requires much more CC to exist than originally wanted, especially against healers.

So it needs a fix before the player gameplay desires could happen.
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Assuming healers' HPS within their class roles are close equal 1:1 ratio, they shouldn't be individually changed to achieve the above. Instead, all of them should get the same reduction, so they keep their equal HPS.

A reduction that reduces all their healing by the same amount is Battle Fatigue, which however is a ruled out change by the players. So since the required change is ruled out, what players are asking for, more constant and less spiky dmg, less CC cannot be achieved, essentially impossibility.


Since the wishes cannot be achieved, but a fix to this ratio is desired and also since CC is already often bordering eternity, the only possible change to fix the issue is to not bring HPS down but bring DPS up. It is what's happening 6.2, for it's the only feasible change left to overcome the excess of healing as long as an equal effect as Battle Fatigue is off the table.

Should it be? No.


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Saladfork said:

Battle fatigue got so much hate because it is a lazy way to "fix" things. It treats healers as if they are all equal and furthers the homogenization even more. Sure it is easier for Blizzard to balance and easier for the player base to absorb, but it leads to discrepancies (usually shamans end up on top since their utility is so great, and their burst healing has always been strong).

I understand what you're saying, though. But I don't think battle fatigue is the *best* solution (it is a "solution"). I would rather have them provide nerfs to healing individually (on a class-by-class basis). And in a perfect world, I'd have them address mana (since mana really isn't an issue until late late dampening), and finally fine tune burst damage to match with the healing nerfs. Obviously these changes would have to be PvP specific (since the current state of healing is entirely due to PvE), and that may be a big road block in going forward since that is against Holinka's philosophy.
In a sense, Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is not -a- solution, it's -the only- way, looking at it as it cannot be skipped, is a required change, a tool to achieve something.

To make it maybe a bit more spectacular, could use a similar example to the current issue.

So the suggested issues are:
    • Too high burst
    • Too much CC
    • Healers die easily
    • However HPS being higher than DPS
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    Being unable to skip the use of Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is because healers' HPS is already balanced. So if you try to skip it and decrease each healers healing spells 1 by 1, in this case by monstrous percentages, there is gonna be a minimum % you've decreased every spell by. So since all their spells have been decreased by that %, it's the equal effect as Battle Fatigue, even tho the intent was to avoid it, essentially used it regardless.


    Other issue could be that there are some spells that are already weak and need no reduction.
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    So basically Battle Fatigue or an equal effect could potentially be more efficient change to fix the majority of, in this case healing issue.
    At the same time, the majority of the issue can get huge enough so that it's simply no longer feasible to be, cannot be replaced by a series of single spell changes.

    It may as well look very lazy to change so many spells all at at the same time, but in case changing 800 spells 1 by 1 is not feasible, then not using an overall reduction is going to prevent doing anything at all. Because can't go 1 by 1 but can't reduce all either, so cannot do anything.
    But if all spells do get reduced, then it's potentially going to be feasible to fix those that were already balanced, essentially be able to do more than if all spells didn't get reduced.


    These could be issues because Battle Fatigue or an equal effect may very well sound like a universal fix that makes PvP suddenly amazing. But it isn't, it's just a piece of a series of different changes to achieve something, but it cannot be skipped.


    Such series of different changes, following all healing reduction could be
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    #4425565 Forbearance

    Posted Tsx on 17 May 2015 - 11:55 AM

    Why is it 30 secs?why??????????


    #4420354 pvp trinket cd being reverted back to 1 min in 6.2

    Posted Pinka on 07 May 2015 - 10:15 PM

    There is truth in it. Rather have lower burst but more often then over the top burst every first global of an arena match that might rng global someone.
    Human racial needs to go overall tho. But this is a good fix to minimize the damage.
    Even if classes benefit from it's 1 min cd. It is still going to be less burst overall.


    #4419634 May 6th PTR Notes

    Posted Redoxz on 07 May 2015 - 12:29 AM

    annoying but much needed, cloak shouldn't be 60s cd honestly.

    you shouldn't have a defensive whenever someone has an offensive.

    i'm glad this got nerfed along with flameglow


    #4418955 Warlords Gladiator mounts

    Posted Xonika on 05 May 2015 - 11:34 PM

    rmd mount


    #4418916 Warlords Gladiator mounts

    Posted Sosseri on 05 May 2015 - 10:42 PM

    can blizzard make a few adjustments to the mount? would like to have the mount dragging hunters, combat rogues and mages with chains.


    #4416966 Wintrading is back bois

    Posted Infernion on 30 April 2015 - 12:37 PM

    lmao this mødestëp guy so cringe


    #4415814 if u hate the game click this

    Posted BalanceRexxar on 27 April 2015 - 08:54 PM

    so idk if you have noticed or not but for the last month or longer the front page of AJ has literally only been specific class questions or bitch threads about the game and for me that is not why i go on AJ.

    Spoiler

    i like the bigmoran posts, the xmog posts, the selfie posts, the WoW pvp video posts, the tourny posts, the glad mount posts, and other posts like that.




    so i made this post, not a bitch post but something different for once.


    please look at my beautiful graph and take note of which seasons have the big red arrow next to them.

    they are all the first season of a new expansion, OP Dks, OP feral bleeds, OP warriors, and then what we currently have.

    as the season for that expansion go on, the graph generally goes up, season 8 RMP i heard was good, BUT shadowmourne was bad, so it got a ok/fun rating. and season 11 was only OK because of PvE gear as well, a few exceptions.


    so try to not focus on the bad but the good, funny moments in streams, tournys, transmogs, selfies, the important stuff because in a while im going to bet that this game will be good, but people wont admit it till the next expansion.

    thx 4 ur time,
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    #4413771 Damage is actually too low

    Posted inhume on 23 April 2015 - 04:11 PM

    Here's the biggest problem I have with WoD, no one dies in a normal scenario.  The meta has become an ughfest of comps with a lot of control and burst kills. Unless you have a burst cooldown up with the entire opposing team cced, you are not killing your anyone. The top 2 healers have too many cooldowns to save their team and damage from spread pressure comps ( do those even exist anymore? ) is non existent.

    The simple fact is, the damage from warlords is too low from steady pressure. Ever since the implementation of the 10(or is it 15? I can't remember) % damage reduction from trinket bonuses, spread pressure or steady pressure comps became non existent. Do you ever actually feel like you can kill someone in an arena game without a cooldown (killing spree, comet storm, crows, incarn....etc)? The answer is no. I believe that the stance that needs to be taken is to nerf the high damage abilities in pvp to reasonable amounts and let the regular damage hurt everyone.



    TLDR: Buff regular damage nerf burst


    #4410834 HOLINKA ANNOUNCES THEY WANT TO PRUNE MORE ABILITIES

    Posted Railander on 16 April 2015 - 07:45 PM

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    #4410810 HOLINKA ANNOUNCES THEY WANT TO PRUNE MORE ABILITIES

    Posted Lolflay on 16 April 2015 - 07:17 PM

    HOLINKA IF YOU READ THIS - WE NEED MORE BUTTONS TO PUSH, BUT WE NEED MORE _SMART_ BUTTONS TO PUSH, NOT MORE STUFF LIKE STORMBOLT AND SHADOWFURY. THAAAAAAANKS


    #4410795 HOLINKA ANNOUNCES THEY WANT TO PRUNE MORE ABILITIES

    Posted Zzx on 16 April 2015 - 07:14 PM

    damn, i liked mortal strike, i guess execute and whirlwind is all i need


    #4410165 Wintrading is back bois

    Posted Backonja on 15 April 2015 - 12:33 PM

    View PostImahacker, on 15 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

    all these people are just mad cause wintraders offer cheaper "boosts" which are actually LEGIT, you play your account YOURSELF. no acc sharing. So stop the boosting @ Glads, and just leave these traders the fuck alone!!!

    Ur both stupid.


    #4410174 Wintrading is back bois

    Posted Mindgamez on 15 April 2015 - 12:38 PM

    View PostImahacker, on 15 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

    all these people are just mad cause wintraders offer cheaper "boosts" which are actually LEGIT, you play your account YOURSELF. no acc sharing. So stop the boosting @ Glads, and just leave these traders the fuck alone!!!
    Legit yeah, typical Russian logic.


    #4409836 Wintrading is back bois

    Posted God on 14 April 2015 - 06:19 PM

    View PostXonika, on 14 April 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

    blizzard would lose sooooo much if they completly stopped boosting

    They would gain some integrity back, something they haven't had in a long time.




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