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Posted Glink on 03 July 2016 - 02:42 PM
Posted Jim_Jim on 01 February 2016 - 09:16 PM
Improving the PvP system in Legion.
- Overall thoughts (talents system)
- Talent tree, cooldowns, active abilities and passive talents
- Arena system, “prestige”
English is not my native language, so my subject might me poorly written sometimes.
This is my own perception and opinions, you can criticize it, or discuss about it, but if you want to insult, or make name calling to respect the ancestral arena-junkie tradition, please do it in private for once.
The PvP system is not available yet, so we can discuss it in a hope that Blizzard listen to us.
I want a pandaren paladin, for reasons.
1) Overall thoughts (talents system)
If you haven’t watch or read the preview for Legion, here is the summary :
- Every class will have a second talent tree, just for PvP, it will work only in PvP. You will unlock talents after talents by doing PvP (Like a reputation, but easier), but at the end, it’s like a classic talent tree.
- Some “rows” of talents are identical between classes (One row will be about the cc-removal trinket), some “rows” are identical for a role (tank, heal, dps)
- Some “rows” are identical between specs.
- The new artifact weapon talent and the regular and classic talent tree works in PvP
I’m not here to talk about talents themselves, some of them seems grossly overpowered, some of them seems weird, others have a placeholder value (damage or heal), and we don’t know yet how much HP we will have in a PvP situation.
The biggest point about this new system is that you can change, fix, or modify a talent without breaking the PvE part of the game, which was over the year the main reason of changes in PvP.
However, besides that cool aspect, I think the biggest mistake is bound to the overall look of the classes in Legion : we lose spells. Some classes seems to be spared by the pruning, some others are not. (Rsham for my very few tries in the Alpha), trashs buff are gone. Even worse : some old basic spells are being changed into talents.
For the eternal debate about pruning, I don’t have a specific opinion about that because it’s too specific, having too much useless spells is not that better than having very few abilities too. The key point is we need impactful abilities. If you have 20 spells, but all you need to do is press 1, 2, 3, 4…20 infinitely to play, it’s better to have 5 spells, and doing combinations with them to have different effects. The perception is different depending on the player I guess.
For me, this is, and this will be the main issue in Legion, it’s cool to finally have our own talent tree, but there is too much passive talents for spec which are already pruned. And most of the time, passive talents will just be something which upgrade a spell, without drawback, without thinking, without decisions, you acquire this, end.
Other negative point : it’s not really inventive, especially for a 11 years old game, it’s X rows of 3 talents, choose one. Combined with the previous point about passive talent, it’s not really “fun”. During years, passive talents have always been safer most of the time, because you have no drawbacks or risks by taking them.
This, the removal of keys spells, the lack of customization (Reforging :’( ), will make classes not really inventive, and PvP even more scripted.
2) Talent tree, active abilities and passive talent
This is the part where I speak about how “I would love to PvP in WoW”
Cooldown in PvP has been a problem for years because of how they works. Cooldowns in PvP should only be spells which enhance your spells (Being able to use your stealth abilities), your stats (20% haste, crit, spirit…), or how a spell works for a duration (Being able to use hammer of wrath no matter the health), not increase damage or healing. If every damage or healing cooldown were reduce at 5/10/15% in PvP (1min CD/2min/3min), it could be a better overall thing.
For me, “PvP talents” should be divided into 2 “windows”, active abilities, and passive abilities. I remember a game, it was Guild Wars I guess, where there were some kind of “arenas”, but before enter, you had to choose your spells. However, the limit of 6 or 8 spells (If I remember correctly), and the overall slooooow moving, casting, and fighting (WoW is really fast, and “nervous” to play) made this game (for me) kinda “meh” to play.
Active talents :
I would love to see this in WoW (The “choice” of spells, heh), it would be in my opinion a good way to say “Hi” to pruning, while giving the player some kind of customization (Customizing your own pruning). This is where all our old spells would come back, all type of spells, buffs (spirit, endurance buffs, blessings, shadowresistance, motW, totems to have haste, spell power, melee attack speed etc etc…), mana regen spells (hymns, divine please, mana tide, innervate), tiny damage spells, fel flame, mana burn (tuned of course). All the lost active abilities and talents we had during years, and new one from Legion.
Even some other spec spells, the first one I have in mind to illustrate what I say is renew. Renew is a holy priest specific spell, and this spell is modified, increased, enhanced by the holy tree, artifact, and what else. I would not find it shocking or it will not destroy the "class fantasy" if a shadowpriest or a discipline priest could have this spell, it will be the baseline spell, modified by only the spell power, nothing else. Of course, with a little tuning, like a tiny “insanity” cost. (The new “mana” bar for shadowpriest)
What will be your opinion if, when you hit level 110, you are credited of like 25 “PvP talent points”, and you have to spend it on this talent tree, choosing your own set of spells. All the numbers are just hypothetical of course :
Exemple : Blessings of kings could cost 1 points, where judgment of justice (The red thing during Wotlk/BC which make the target unable to run more than 100% speed) could cost 3, divine plea 3, rebuke 5 and a impactful spell like avenger shield (Prot spec) could cost 10 as a hpal. The cost depending of the impact of the spell in PvP. (Having a trash buff compared to a X second CD silence). If I’m a holy pal playing with melees, and playing in melee – like holy pal is supposed to be in Legion -, I could choose rebuke, if I’m playing with 2 casters, I can “prune” it, and chose judgment of wisdom instead to help them (and me) managing mana.
- This could add to the players some customization of their own bars, while adding some depth in the rotation, and giving the player a choice. It would be easier to “nerf” a spell by just increasing his cost and/or nerf it directly.
- Old schools spells mixed with news spells can add fun to our favorite game, for new players, and oldschool ones.
- It could create a chaotic environment for arena, and I’m in the school of “I prefer a chaotic and fun PvP instead of a balanced and unfun one” where everyone is overpowered on his own way, everyone can play with lots of classes and comp and still be efficient.
- It’s harder to tune things when it’s too chaotic.
- There will always be a “best” build to use, like in every video game where talents are involved.
- It can be scripted too. “Ok, I don’t need tremor here, there is no fear” – It has always been like that you will say, it was just put on your bar for the sake of having something in your bar, but you never used it against this comp without fear spells.
- Why did they pruned too much to have this kind of system?
Before speaking of this, for people who doesn’t play Heroes of the Storm, here is one talent for some “dps” characters in this game, it’s called Gathering Power :
Each time you kill a guy, or participate in a kill, you gain 2% more damage for your abilities, stackable 15 times. (So, 30%). All stacks are lost if you are killed.
The starcraft sniper, Nova, is one of the character which can use this talent (at least, now, she will be reworked, but anyway), and she’s the kind of heroes which are extremely powerful if you manage to keep those stacks, but near useless in the end game if you die and lose them. 2 players, same talent chosen, but differences between their plays, and the first player is a pain in the ass for the enemy team, and the other, who has been caught in a bad positionning and die, deal way less damage and his a burden to his team. Dying late game is HotS is 60s respawn, so it’s deadly.
This is how I would like to see passive talents in PvP, if you look at the “trinket” row of the alpha pvp talent, this is like that (Considering you have a 3min CD trinket in your baseline toolkit) :
- Your trinket have 2min CD, nothing changes from now. (Safe way)
- A long duration cc is removed automatically, and if so, reduce the cd of the trinket by 50% (Change how the spell work)
- A passive -25% duration, but activable trinket is not available. (Good, but risky way of dealing with cc)
Example : healers : once again, my number are purely hypothetical and my ideas too.
Row 1 : Trinket choice (Common to every class)
Row 2 : Healers specific row 1 :
- -Talent 1 (Safe way) : Reduce the mana cost of your spells by 10%
- -Talent 2 (Weird/different way) : After 3 consecutive spells on the same target, the next one is a critical strike.
- -Talent 3 (Risky/rewarding) : Increase the healing by 20%, and the mana cost of your healing spells by 30%
- -Talent 1 (Safe way) : Increase healing by 10%
- -Talent 2 (Weird/different) : If you are interrupted during a casted spell, you gain a buff increasing the healing of your next casted ability by 50%
- -Talent 3 (Risky/rewarding) : Increase your healing by 10% each time you are the victim of an interrupt spell which failed, stackable 3 times. The more you manage to fake, the more healing you do. All stacks are lost if you are interrupted. (The opposite talent for dps can be added, for example.)
- Talent 1 (Safe) : Increase the duration of Divine Shield by 2s.
- Talent 2 (Different) : Reduce the cooldown of Divine shield by 50% - (Combined with the PvE one, it will make a 75% reduction cooldown), but no longer remove debuffs and cc, you are just immune to damage and new harmful debuffs for the duration. The already existant debuff are still active.
- Talent 3 (Risky) : You can cast Divine Shield on your mates, but no longer on yourself.
To make it short : you can either have a safe build, which upgrade your spell with minor things, or you can try a risky build, which allow you to build your damage, healing, or anything else. You can “create” you own cooldowns and pressure by playing better than your opponent, or losing it because you failed, or just playing it safe because you don’t feel that confident.
The biggest negative point of that system is the amount of “bots” which will make fake cast and kicking easy, and so provide huge and undeserved bonus from this kind of talents.
3) Arena system and prestige
The fact that you can see the enemy team before is one of the numerous reasons arenas feels scripted now. Adding the fact that thanks to no regular changes at all because PvE, it’s always the same compositions you face, you know that against mages, you need to pick the double dispel, against warlocks, the double beacons etc etc…
- They should remove the “I can see the team before” in arena, so you are completely blind, and you have to adapt to your opponent. (In a perfect arena world where every comp can beat every comp, of course.)
- Rating should not be visible in the armory, in other sites, or anywhere else. It should be something personal that you can share of course, so you can’t just say “Ok, I will not play with character again because I’m safe glad”
- Make arena available in cross-factions. I think this is not possible for a technical issue about being in the same group as a horde players, and outdoor content, but that would be nice.
“Prestige” is the new “PvP reputation” (it’s “ranks” in fact, like Vanilla) you will have the possibility to grind in Legion. You earn “reputation”, you unlock your talents and cosmetic things depending of your rank (The “new” pvp mounts… erhm), end.
The big problem about this is you have to sacrifice all you have done for unlocking another rank. Which is extremely time consuming (and boring), but why not you’ll say, if it doesn’t cripple your arena session, but it does. I suppose that if you want the latest rank, and so, the latest cosmetic reward, you have to “farm” a lot, so, having less talent for that? This is not good at all because you have to “plan” your day in order to have those rewards, and that’s the biggest force of PvP compared to PvE, you can play whenever you want, without organizing it like PvE.
Of course it should be time-consuming, but not at this price, and to increase the feeling of “prestige”, they should add some “barriers”, like having X rating in arenas, win X games in a row at X rating etc etc… the last rank of prestige should be something extremely hard to achieve like “Win 10 arenas in a row at 2800 rating against players at 2800 rating too.”
What’s your opinion about all my sh…about that?
Thanks for reading me, have a nice day.
And even if it was worthless to do, it was fun to write (At least for me, because I did it at work.)
(Oh, and grmbl.)
Posted Miixzy on 09 December 2015 - 09:25 PM
Posted Nogahn on 18 July 2015 - 07:26 AM
still better than... the healer got deepfreezed and is getting polied, NO HE GOT INTERUPTED... but there's a ring of frost OH MY GOD HE GOT KNOCK-INTERUPTED... nvm full fear... into poly... into poly.... into sllence
Posted Mattadoro on 17 July 2015 - 07:03 PM
Posted Imtaz on 13 July 2015 - 11:55 AM
The only classes that can talk about Mages are Warlocks and other casters, to whom Mages are vastly superior.
There are only a few hunters who actually enjoy BM the rest of em are just waiting for MM & SV to get viable/playable.
And in this current state survival is close to being unplayable, you are just an annoying little monkey jumping around creating momentum for your teammates, your damage has no impact on the game whatsoever, you are padding the meters because of the sustained low damage yes.
But low sustained damage doesn't get you anywhere in the world of cooldowncraft and they removed every little burst oppurtunity survival had by nerfing explosive shot and the initial ticket of serpent sting on arcaneshot.
Posted Marshmellow on 13 July 2015 - 08:26 AM
Posted jaimex on 12 July 2015 - 03:30 PM
if you didn't sit at your screen watching the clock timer on ice nova spin around twice for a minute, you wouldn't have to spam polymorph. if frostbolt did reasonable amounts of damage, you couldn't spam polymorph, because you wouldn't do any damage. if there weren't 5 million interrupts, you wouldn't have to go through 17 different stops before one goes off, and if the remainder of classes didn't have such ridiculous flavor abilities to avoid shit, you would only have to land one polymorph before you went and did other shit
but most of all, if the dispel system didn't get so fucked that you basically have to connect three polymorphs to land one, nobody would be spamming it in the first place
i can't blame hunters for not understanding anything other than a cooldown, though, since the only thing they know is running around and doing whatever they want from any position all the time
holy shit you actually dont see anything from anything other than a mage pov do you; every issue you listed is worse for every other caster.
Posted Rawrbertlol on 12 July 2015 - 11:58 AM
Despite all the change on their spells during years, sheep is still here. Blink too. (Funny to see mages complaining about DK's trinket when they have the best of all)
Maybe it's the reason?
And no, a 8s CD on polymorph (and fear) won't kill the class.
Imagine if Ele shaman's Hex, or Paladin's repentence have no CD, remove dots, on a different school (Frost? Because why not?).
Imagine all the rage that this change would create.
You're literally the best poster on this entire website by miles Jimjim.
Posted Jim_Jim on 11 July 2015 - 11:45 PM
Posted Jim_Jim on 05 July 2015 - 01:01 PM
"Historically" is one of the worst possible argument to use in a debate. Because, historically, paladin use to be a wall against melee classes, they used to be the first offensive healer at the end of BC, beginning of Wotlk, despite the "Nope, priest is the offensive healer". Sorry Priests, but it's false. HISTORICALLY, the shockadin during BC and the hybrid during S5/6 (With dps abilities, and good cc - repent/hoj - and even the protopaladin during S6. As it was the dominent healing spec as paladin, you must considerer them as healer, despite the dumbness of the spec.
And it's extremly arrogant to consider some class as "enablers". So they must always be on the top, so the poor dumb classes can't play arena without being a whore to thoses classes? Are you serious? You imagine the behavior of the players who play the "chosen" class that will create? (And already created?) Of course warlock and mage are like that, because they always had a spamable cc. This unique reason make them a always "I need one" class. You can't replace them, and that's the fact i hate about mages, they can't be replaced, at any season in any expansion, they will always be here, they didn't know how hard it was to find a team with a "meh" class (Like priest now, or hpal before 6.1). And historically, they have the most despicable players of all - behavior i mean - because of that privilege)
Imagine we change that. Imagine a ele shaman having a spamable hex on another magic, and mage have a 15s sheep on frost school. The world will be destroyed by all the forums posts of hate. Because the community of mages is more important than others community.
Look how popular the post about Living Bomb got popular. If a good dk (Like Volkovitch) wrote a post like that about the absolute necessity of having the old Wotlk Desecration instead of the level 100 trinket talent to make Unholy attractive. I'm 100% sure they will have tons of hate just because "It's a dk.". And because they don't deserve to be a good class after season 5. Exact situation with a hunter, they "historically" have been a medium/good class, depending of the season, and the first time they stole the throne of the "enablers" by being as them : dumb and pick in 80% of the team, it was the end of the world.
By the way, you don't need to link some ridiculous achievement, or guy with "92148674276 rating in Cata" to prove something. Rating does not make your argument more valid than another one, at least, i'm not a guy who transform himself into a Stasi officer when i want to debate with another guy.
And to finish, i find the "We need to force melee/caster/healer" argument really hypocrite when in another post, you saw "I don't like when Blizzard force me to do something i don't like.". And i don't think seeing RMD (melee/caster/healer) this season, WWLS last season, or RLS during Cataclysm (for example.) all the time is something i would like.
About Hpal, i already wrote my opinion about a reasonable nerf the paladin forum. Instead of "Remove everything they HISTORICALLY have".
Oh, and Dizeeyo, i love Thor Steinar clothes too.
Posted Lloix on 29 June 2015 - 02:52 PM
Basic Spec Rundown:
Good spread pressure through rupture+venomous wounds. Good burst opportunities every minute with a stun ->MfD+DfA+Vanish/Envenom (this is not 100% the burst rotation, varies by talents and situation obviously).
Good burst/utility. Worst sustained damage out of all three specs. Your time spent outside of shadow dance is maintaining buffs/debuffs, disrupting the enemy healer, and peeling for your partners.
Good sustained damage with Killing Spree still being one of it not the best rogue CD at the moment. Received damage buffs with last patch. With 6.2 you can be peeled while KS is up (some talents like fear are not interrupting KS, will update later once it's decided if KS is bugged or not). Arguably the top spec for rogues still in 6.2. There is a higher 'skill cap' involved now as cross-cc will be necessary to land kills with KS, or you'll have to use a defensive CD such as Cloak of Shadows to not be stopped.
Nightstalker - This talent went from bad in 6.1 to situational with the buffs to Assassination. The increased damage is very noticeable, however you give up a LOT in order to see higher numbers. I can see this as an ideal talent choice for certain 'all-in' comps such as DK/Rogue/Healer, however I am not confident in saying that the damage is worth giving up that much utility/defensives for.
Subterfuge - I feel as though subterfuge is the ideal talent choice in almost all cases. With it you allow yourself easy cross-cc on your opener (cheapshot on multiple targets to allow easy follow up cc on a DPS/healer) and vanishes. Also allows for better openers against certain classes like frost mages, where if you take Nightstalker you'll be pet nova'd on your opener every time. There is a lot of counterplay available in that you're able to do things like sap a trinket off of blind while still being able to cheap/garrote your main target. Without subterfuge you really lack options to peel, which I feel is one thing that rogue can excel at, and is one thing that differentiates a good rogue from a bad one.
Shadow Focus - I don't think there is too much to say about this talent, the free-cost opener could be nice, but this talent is lacking compared to the other two in this tier.
Deadly Throw - Deadly throw went from broken in 6.1 to pretty useless in 6.2. One situation where it might be more useful would be against melee cleaves, but even then I wouldn't say it's better than having nerve strike for peels, or CR for a strong defensive ability.
Nerve Strike - Nerve strike is a very strong talent that synergizes well with subterfuge as you're able to peel entire teams and debuff their damage for nearly 10 seconds (stun+NS debuff). This is the go-to for an caster cleaves, and should be taken against any teams where you know, for a fact, that you would not get swapped to. However in most situations, and with the way classes have scaled in 6.2, I would argue that anything melee on the other team would warrant a pass on this talent. Not having CR and getting swapped to by a warrior will usually mean death, and good players will be able to pick up on that and know to focus you.
Combat Readiness - Combat Readiness is another great talent and one of the things that make rogues so difficult to kill. In most situations getting off CR right before you are swapped to can mean the difference between life and death. This applies for feral/rogue/warrior etc. burst. If you're caught in a smokebomb without trinket, the only thing that may keep you alive will be whether or not you were able to feint+CR before you're stunned. You should not be using this unless the enemy is using offensive CD's to kill you and your healer has no options to keep you up.
Cheat Death - Could be considered a decent talent in that it allows for a few extra seconds to live, but falls short compared to elusiveness.
Leeching Poison - Not worth using.
Elusiveness - This has been the number one talent for a long time now, and it's proper usage is important in staying alive. 30% damage reduction is nothing to pass over. With subtlety, your 4 piece set bonus will also give you a good amount of versatility, meaning your feint will double as a short offensive and defensive buff. Being able to feint before you take damage in a stun makes a huge impact in how vulnerable your healer needs to make himself in order to keep you alive. A good habit will be to keep feint up at all times when you are being targeted, and know to use it preemptively when you are being swapped to (if a warrior charges, or you see someone target you, use feint).
Cloak and Dagger - Not a very good talent choice at the moment, having to rely on stealth for gap-closers doesn't fit well.
Shadowstep - I feel step is the best choice as it was last season as well. Instant swaps, and the ability to step to teammates (such as a healer right as a godcomp bursts you) is a huge difference maker. You're also given a more reliable means of kicking healers with this than you would with Burst of speed. Good players will see you BoS to them and know you are either going to kick/swap and can react accordingly. Having the ability to do that instantly is a huge plus.
Burst of Speed - BoS is still a very viable talent and can outperform ShS in some comps where you're going want to have closer to 100% uptime on a target. Any classes with spammable slows will punish this talent, however, as it gets countered hard by any on-demand slow. Although slow effects are removed when you active BoS, it does not make you immune for the duration. For example, if you're playing against a rogue using this talent, simply shiving him when he uses BoS will cause him to waste a global and 30 energy for nothing. It still remains the talent of choice for RBG's.
Prey on the Weak - Prey is currently the best choice of talent for Assassination and Subtlety. The damage bonus applies not only for you but your teammates as well. With the way damage has scaled in patch 6.2, this talent seems even further ahead for these specs than it was before.
Internal Bleeding -This is a really strong talent and I still think the go-to choice for combat rogues as it's damage scales with your Deep Insight buff.
Dirty Tricks - Not worth using.
Shuriken Toss - Not worth using. Helps in duels against mages/hunters.
Marked for Death - MFD is the strongest choice of talent in this tier again, both because of the fact that none of these talents underwent any changes and the fact that the on demand damage is so important. For Assassination rogues this talent lines up perfectly with your 1 minute vanish so that you're able to get two finisher off in a short period of time. The same concept applies with Sub and Combat, as having an extra evis can mean the difference when trying to land a kill.
Anticipation - This talent falls behind MfD but in theory could allow for more sustained damage. You're able to pool combo points more and have extra finishers after you stun, but the fact that this isn't on demand and promotes a more passive playstyle (in that you need to wait for 10 cp's before you can stun as opposed to five) gives it a pass in my book.
Venom Rush - Despite looking plain on paper, this talent is actually very good. The additional energy and regen help out more than one might think for things like swaps etc. It gives you a bit more freedom in using things like feint, and isn't that difficult to maintain. For sub rogues I feel this talent is the go-to choice as the spec relies on quick swaps so heavily, so making sure you have the energy to do so is important. Your entire Shadow Dance can be ruined because you had to garrote or gouge someone else right before a swap and left you with too little energy to execute your dance properly. I also feel this is an great choice for Assassination as 155 energy is a LOT to dump into someone during a stun.
Shadow Reflection - This is another strong talent, however I feel it works out best for combat and falls behind for the other two specs. The reflection does not receive any buffs you have up (such as deep insight, trinkets, and Vendetta) and only copies special abilities that you use, not auto attacks. It is a good damage increase when used properly with a full energy bar to dump, and possibly including an extra evis/envenom with MfD, but the biggest bonus you get with this is the additional stun. Be mindful that there would be a delay, so if your intent is to chain kidney one target that you wait ~3 seconds so that the stuns do not have a gap between them.
Death from Above - DFA is a very strong talent, and arguably the top choice for Assassination rogues in 6.2. With all CD's up, this talent hits VERY hard and is something that most team will have to react to in order to live. Note that there is a long animation associated with this, which does allow teams some time to react, which could potentially negate all of the damage. This includes things like spectral guise, Cloak of Shadows, Smokebomb, etc. Also note that the initial 'hit' is an AoE, so be mindful when using this ability when you're close to someone who's in CC that could be broken.
I'd expect to see a majority of assassination rogues to be running this ability, at least for the start of 6.2. The fact is that dealing 170k+ damage to someone with one ability is no joke, however there are downsides to using it. There is a decent energy cost, and the long cast time gives your opponent some time to try and react to it in some way. I also don't find this ability ideal for any other spec, as with sub you lose a lot of time during your dance with this, and it's hard to fit in between stuns.
Assassination- Subterfuge (NS with a DK pairing), CR, Elusiveness, ShS, Prey on the Weak, Marked for Death, Venom Rush/DFA
Combat- Subterfuge, CR, Elusiveness, ShS, Internal Bleeding, Marked for Death, Shadow Reflection
Sub- Subterfuge, CR, Elusiveness, ShS, Prey on the Weak, Marked for Death, Venom Rush
These are just the main glyphs you should be using but you might find there are rare occasions where other glyphs that might be better good for what you're doing.
Cheap Shot - Strong vs. melee teams and situations where you won't be using garrote much. For sub in helps to have for Shadow Dance feel more smooth.
Garrote - Should be used vs. most caster teams, next to mandatory against teams with mages.
Blind - This glyph is pretty much mandatory however you could see yourself passing on it in certain comps where you don't see yourself making swaps and AoE dots would not be an issue. These would be very specific situations however, and as a rule of thumb I'd generally take it.
Hemo Vein - This glyph has been seen much less use since MoP as it doesn't fit in well with the specs current rotations. That being said the other glyphs pretty much outshine this small bonus (hemo does next to no damage at this point and should only be used to generate combo points in a pinch) in most situations.
Glyph of Energy - This is another glyph I feel is mandatory since losing our previous set bonus which gave us 30+ energy allowing us to open more efficiently than without it due to energy starving. -Jack
Glyph of Disappearance - This glyph is very strong with Assassination and Combat. It lines up perfectly with MfD and on-use trinket enabling your Kidney>MfD+DfA>Vanish>Envenom combo that will allow you to burst further into the game. With Combat it allows you to have a garrote/CS window for the off dps+healer, and awards you the 5 combo points+Guaranteed crit on your next Eviscerate.
The only other notable glyph could be the Glyph of Recovery. The additional 20% healing is nice for games where you would be trained, but from my perspective I feel like the benefits you'd gain from the other glyphs is superior.
Glyph of Energy flows is also situational, but I can't see too many situations where even having the additional energy during evasion is going to help noticeably more than the other glyphs.
Assassination- Blind, Energy, Disappearance (all 3 pretty mandatory in most comps)
Combat- Blind, Energy, Cheapshot, Garrote (All situational) Disappearance (mostly mandatory)
Sub- Energy (Mandatory) Cheapshot, Garrote, Blind, Feint (Situational)
Gearing is still pretty straightforward as it was last season. Mastery is the top stat for all 3 specs. Versatility is also very nice and should be picked up on the helm/boot off-pieces (I think the boots from last season are still better than the blue boots available now which lack the versatility/mastery combo). Vers. only has those two options for slots, so get it there, I'm not considering it in my stat weights. Crit and multistrike remain nerfed in PvP, but for the general idea that burst damage>sustained I place crit higher than haste, though you could argue it might be better in some situations as Assassination or Combat.
Yes, they're pretty much the same across each spec. Mastery scales further for Assassination than any of the other specs, and with weapon procs can get very high. For trinkets you want to have the agility+on-use versatility, and the agility proc trinket. Enchant everything with Mastery including both weapons.
Pretty straightforward, you'll want to hard-open with your DfA+Vanish envenom combo, with the use of trinket/Vendetta if you're opening on something that has no reliable out (rogues/ferals/warriors). After that you will ideally keep rupture up on as many targets as feasible (this includes pets) and pool energy to full when you can kidney your target. Always try to save DfA, MfD, vanish, and your on-use trinket for the same usage. Against certain comps, namely godcomp, you will have to consider 'wasting' a defensive in vanish in order to put out pressure fast.
Opener with Nighstalker: Garrote>Mutilate>Kidney>Vendetta+On-Use Trinket>MfD>DfA>Vanish>Envenom
Subterfuge opener is largely the same, except you can garrote+garrote/CS the other dps/healer. You also have the option to cheapshot/garrote the kill target after your vanish+envenom, or cheapshot/garrote the other dps/healer if they are close enough to step to.
Sub remains the one rogue spec that can be played differently and very effectively. I still find that the sustained damage outside of dance is pretty poor, so just training one target, in most cases, will not be the ideal way to play. As I said before, outside of your damage CD's, you should be maintaining 5cp SnD, Rupture (I keep this up on the main target as well as the target you would possibly swap to), and recup. If you have the energy to do so, always feint prior to your shadow dance/smaller burst windows.
Standard Opener: Premed+SnD>CS (garrote into cs if mage, stand in front of him so you aren't rooted just out of melee range)>Rupture>Shadow Dance>2x Ambush>Kidney Shot>MfD+Evis>Ambush>CS>Evis>CS>Ambush
Provided you've put enough CC on the healer, this rotation will keep the kill target locked down and force some of their CD's putting you at an advantage right out of the gate. To maintain your lead you have to be doing one of two things: Locking down the DPS so they cannot put damage out, or locking down the healer so that they cannot easily top the target you opened on.
Your play outside of dance depends on what comp you're playing, what you're up against, and what the other team is doing. As a general rule, you need to be peeling if the other team is using offensive CD's. Gouge>Kidney is very good CC. In general, using kidney is a great CC tool as it is reliable, won't risk your healer overextending to land their cc, and is a good setup. Just be mindful of DR's if you're planning to swap.
On a healer, even if you're not on the kill target (remember your damage isn't that great, and you should be partnered with someone who can do good consistent pressure such as a hunter, lock, etc.) gouge>kidney>vanish+garrote>ShS cheap+premed evis kill target is a very good amount of pressure going out.
I don't think you're making the most use out of your vanishes as a sub rogue if you're ONLY saving it for a defensive. In fact, the only times I'd use it as a defensive is as a last resort, which in most cases means using prep early for a second vanish.
Mid-late game, once your Dance comes off of CD, my ideal play for landing a kill is to kidney the healer for further CC setup, then go onto the kill target (who needs to have a rupture up on them prior to this)
Shadow Dance>Premed>CS>Evis>MfD>Evis>CS>Ambush>Evis>CS>Ambush. If the target's trinket is down, now would be a good time to use a smokebomb. Also note that in most cases it will be more worthwhile to use a sap on the healer/dps during dance when you can get it off, as your partner should still have damage to land a kill. Don't forget that Blind drops the targets combat, so if you're quick enough you can Sap them right after they trinket.
Combat is a pretty straightforward spec to play. Essentially, your whole game revolves around doing constant damage to whatever target you can sit on reliably to try and force CD's, and wait out chances to ShS>Kideny and use Killing Spree during red Deep Insight proc. You want to maintain SnD, recup, and revealing strike at all times. Try to time out your killing spree during some form of CC, as you should be forcing defensive CD's out of the enemy team every time you use it. Also keep in mind that you can generate combo points with Revealing Strike, and should use this method when trying to delay your red buff from activating. Communicate with your team once you get yellow and let them know when you'll have your full damage up.
You do not have to always hold off on using killing spree during red. Using it during yellow is still great, and in late-game situations being able to force CD's during your yellow Killing spree and still have things like shadow reflection and Adrenaline rush during your red buff is a great form of sustained pressure.
I am not as well versed in combat as the other specs, but I feel a solid opener would go like this:
MfD>Kidney>AR>Revealing Strike>SS until you reach 5 combo points>SnD>SS until 5 cp>Recup>SS/Revealing strike so that your redbuff will proc just AFTER the stun DR fades>Kidney>Killing Spree.
Of course if you force a trinket from the healer on the initial kidney, you can look to swap to them on your second kidney shot with red buff up. I've seen players also use Killing Spree in their opener as well and use AR immediately afterwards, the playstyle I feel depends on your comp and what you're up against.
Quick Tips: (WIP will add as others contribute)
Envenom is not considered physical damage. Meaning things like CloS or DK spell immunity will cancel it's damage. It still goes through BoP.
You can open on hunter by knocking them out of their stealth with fan of knives BEFORE you are unstealthed from the actual flare, as long as your FoK damages them first you will activate subterfuge.
Mentioned before but for emphasis: Blind drops combat on the target, so if they trinket you have the chance to sap immediately, or also use distract if they trinket to run into a smokebomb and you cannot sap (if you're with a mage)
There is a ~1-2s window of immunity when you land from DfA. Be aware of this when trying to peel a rogue immediately after DfA lands.
When opening on mages, always start by being positioned in front of them, not behind. When you garrote, their initial reaction will be to pet nova you and move away. You cannot Garrote>Cheapshot them (with subterfuge) if you get nova'd out of melee range.
Please feel free to add/correct anything as you see fit. I'm sure I missed a couple points here and there.
Posted Pinka on 24 April 2015 - 04:14 PM
But when you look inside you will see an advanced guidance system.