The more I play Rogue and discuss it with my budd who has kept his Rogue active since Vanilla, the more I've come to realise the class just has an unintuitive, brutal entry barrier and an over-dependence on top-end gear. It's a class that doesn't lend itself well to an intermediate skill level, which basically splits the Rogue population in 2 halves (overwhelming majority argument here):
1) Kids/Recreational players who couldn't care less about mechanics & arena/RBG viability, and want to roleplay as stealthy ninjas and run around spamming BoSpeed & ShuriToss, all the while complaining when they can't drop someone in an opener.
2) High level diehard fans of the class who roll with the waves, whether favorable or not.
The intermediate level players should form the largest part of a given class' population, and I would argue rogues are heavily discouraged to keep going as soon as they reach that point (due to being undesired in comps or being flat out inadequate as a melee class). This probably leads to Blizzard receiving less feedback about the class, although to be fair it seems the Class designers have ran out of inspiration/interest a long time ago when it comes to introducing & tweaking rogue mechanics. To me, the main issues seems to be a lack of polish & playtesting in sufficiently competitive environments. Rogues are years behind compared to other classes, and every time a new Xpack launches the cycle begins anew.
With that being said, I'll go in-depth as why I think Rogue is a polarized class.
Rogue is too much about being preventive & planning quite a few things ahead of time. From what I'm observing at the moment, most classes have some buttons to mash at any point they need to take less damage or do more damage (with minimal setup involved). Need to pre-Cloak this, need to pre-Feint that, need to pre-Evasion this, need to pre-Vanish that... now this would be totally fine, if the punishment for failing wasn't death/causing your team to hopelessly fall behind.
Rogue burst is completely preventable. All of it. I'm not saying it should be unstoppable to the same level as an Unholy DK's, but for the retarded amount of setup it requires, it would be nice to have some minimal guarantees, whether through DoTs or thanks to ranged damage/mobility. Combat has less troubles on that front than Subtelty, and Assassination would do much better in that area if Poisons/Vendetta weren't so easy to get rid of.
Forced to choose between utility or damage or defense too often, in a metagame where many classes have 2-in-1s (even 3-in-1s). Deadly Poison VS Wound Poison is a major offender, Crippling Poison Shiv VS PvP 4set is another. Too many to list, too many to be a respectable damage class, which also hurts the "social" aspects of playing the class. If you can't keep up on damage while providing your utility, you can't be a standalone competitive class in WoW, as you will forever be sucking the tits of the current FOTM caster (which would probably rather partner with another FOTM than a Rogue, aka CC bot).
Legendary dagger shenanigans aside, the strongest Rogues have been these past years (since early WOTLK ) was in mid-Cataclysm, paired with an Affliction Warlock (and only because they amplified the Warlock so well, not because the class was good on its own). They have been strong with a multitude of other classes, but as these classes gaIn more CCs/ways to defend themselves, the usefulness of a Rogue wanes.
Now with ALL of this being said, I believe the overall mechanic changes in WoD will do a lot for Rogue, especially the attempt to make slower/white swing damage relevant again. But, maybe Blizz needs to consider there's a "disconnect" between the way they envision the class in PvP, what they think the players want, and what actually makes the class enjoyable/viable.
This thread covers anything else I could possibly say on the subject. Fight on bros, we should be fine, at least until another dual-wield class is shoved into the game
I would like to start by saying that I don’t think rogues are currently capable of competing at a tournament level setting. The reason for this is that rogues are incredibly flimsy, the kills we get are based on critting eviscerate and making sure our other dps is doing maximum +25% damage (via tricks of the trade and prey on the weak). Only one or two things have to go wrong for us to have next to no chance at winning.
Below are the buffs I think rogues need to be both more fun and competitive:
Sanguinary Vein now gives a +30% chance to Critical Strike Ambush and Backstab (in PvP only).
Hemorrhage now also increases the duration of our Rupture by 6 seconds(stacks to maximum rupture duration)
Rogue PVP glove bonus changed to “Sprint now removes all roots and movement impairing effects when activated” (not immune)
Increased damage of backstab by 20% (in PvP only)
I’ll elaborate on the reasoning for each change:
Sanguinary Vein right now is a mandatory effect all rogues have to apply to the target and it feels quite unrewarding, the goal here is to make it feel like you –want- to apply rupture instead of it feeling like a chore. Both ambush and backstab really need to be criting or hitting harder, and the safest of these two options is buffing crit chance. This makes it easier to balance going forward since we can expect a 50% rate of crit on the ability and balance the damage around its maximum potential, instead of around its average non-crit.
Hemorrhage serves next to no purpose other than a way to drain energy if you can’t manage to get behind your target, in the past this was fine as it did about 10% less damage than backstab so it felt ok. Now it does roughly 35% less damage and costs 5 less energy, it really just feels clunky and not fun to use. My proposed change to it would help alleviate the exasperation of keeping 4 abilities up at once (Rupture, Slice & Dice, Feint, Recuperation) and also make it serve a good purpose in PvP.
The Rogue glove PVP bonus change is because rogues need a bit more mobility and I imagine that blizzard does not want to buff shadowstep, since it’s already the most taken talent and they want choice on each talent tier. This change could also be a glyph, which would make it more of a sacrifice and less of a buff since our glyphs are very tight as is (blind, garrote, cheapshot, feint). But rogues really do need a buff to mobility and I don’t feel like this change would be over doing it.
The increased damage to backstab in PvP is because backstab should be our primary source of damage, and currently it’s quite lackluster. A backstab right now on a mail target with Find Weakness and every other buff we have (glove bonus, pvp proc, sang vain, dancing steel) does about 35-40k crit. Now I feel that 35-40k crits would be fine WITHOUT find weakness and if we crit often, which we don’t. Majority of the time we won’t have find weakness on the target, and we have a 25% chance to crit. Right now my average backstab on cloth is 12k, on plate 8k, and the crits do obviously 24k and 16k respectively (which is absurdly low for it being our primary source of damage outside of eviscerate which I will go over below)
Ok so now that I’ve gone over the buffs, here’s what I think should be nerfed:
Subtlety mastery: Executioner needs to have its scaling reduced by 30% or so.
Prey on the Weak is now 7% damage bonus instead of 10%
Subterfuge reduced to 1.5 or 2 second duration
Reasoning behind these changes:
Eviscerate really just does a bit too much damage if it crits when mastery is stacked this high. On average against mail or cloth(with all procs and find weakness) I will get between 85-105k eviscerates crits, which I can then just immediately do again with mark for death, equating to a potential 210k in 2 globals. No one wants to see that kind of damage on demand. Sure it doesn’t always happen since our crit is low, but when it does it leaves the victim quite unhappy, and as a rogue I feel unsatisfied winning this way. Currently this is our only way of winning (what I aim to have change with these adjustments).
Prey on the weak is for the same reasons as above, but also to allow some choice in this tier, I really like paralytic poison, and I really like dirty tricks, but right now I can’t trade 10% damage for my partner and I for some fun utility. I like this tier and would really like it if it were more of a choice.
Subterfuge currently is broken due to a variety of reasons, the main one I can say for sure is that the victim cannot see what abilities the rogue is using, and another is that his partners cannot peel for him during it. With subtlety mastery the way it is a rogue can pop every cooldown in that window and get someone under 40% with eviscerate chain crits without even leaving stealth. Another problem is that AoEing a rogue in stealth and him having 3 seconds (more if you count vanish -> subterfuge) until he comes back out is a bit absurd, really I feel that you should be rewarded for guesstimating correctly when he’s stealthed. This will also allow more choice in this talent tier.
Feel free to chime in if you guys want, would be great to hear everyone else's opinion and refine this as needed.
Actually I made a twitter account to ask holinka about this, suggested they nerf eviscerate instead of every other ability we have. I also posted on here 2-3 times with reasonably long posts about what the problems with rogues are and how to fix them.
The problem though, is that the masses rule in this game and no one likes dying in stuns. Whenever rogues are viable, they're hands down the most complained about class by lower ranked players, thus this results in us being over nerfed. The issue partially is that being a class thats all about physical stuns and openers with sap makes it a hard time for new players to react to, and a hard time for designers to balance. Either that sap and cheapshot opener is quite effective and you often get a kill in it, or it's not effective and rogues are quickly bent over and destroyed. Pretty binary situation where someone is unhappy.
I personally think that the entire class needs a reworking, as the current game design does not fit rogues very well. Of course there are bandaid fixes to this, like buffing survivability or increasing our damage again. But in the end, as soon as rogues are viable and killing people via RLS howl-> stun healer 100-0, or RMP sap cheapshot smokebombs, it's just going to be another cycle of over buff then over nerf until a complete rework is done.
Thank you for alerting me, I'll be absolutely sure that I make a ticket right this moment so these traders can be condemned. Win trading has no place in World of Warcraft; they go nowhere in this game.