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VotlolMember Since 26 Jul 2011
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Posted Votlol on 02 April 2014 - 04:22 PM
i dont think that the damage is the issue personally i think the damage is about where it needs to be if you're trying to balance it out with other stuff, but if anything is an issue it's the suitability... but that's not really an lsd problem it's a problem with the game / a lot of (maybe most) classes having a million cds (rdruids, ele sham kinda, warlocks, mages, etc) to keep alive. That's just kind of how the game is now.
I do kind of wish though that there was still kind of a factor that you will be punished if you just turtle. Like i felt like a long time ago, if you focused on living you could live longer, but you would not be able to pressure and force cds / force a possible win. Now you can just turtle (as many comps) and eventually get a kill or gib (or have dampening kick in if that's something that helps your team more than the other). I'm not so much complaining that you should not be able to live if you focus everything on that, just that you should have to offer more offense or something in order to play so defensively.
I think that the current state is just really boring and not so much strategy or really even like high synergy anymore, but rather constantly trying to force the stars to align so you can win (FINALLY mage no block no snap no trinket, druid no block no trinket, and our pom is up and all our cc drs are off)..
Posted Votlol on 01 February 2014 - 01:27 PM
Posted Votlol on 14 January 2014 - 05:13 PM
So something a lot of people don't get is that it's more important to avoid damage than to heal through it in most situations. Obviously this isn't always possible, and sometimes it's unlikely. Yes, you need to work harder than the other team to stop their burst on you, vs what they have to do to put that burst on you, but that's just how the game works, it's kinda maybe impossible to balance the game so that every single comp has an equal chance against every other comp, so sometimes you will have to work a lot harder like against comps that can just kill you instantly.
So what avoiding the damage means, is to kite at ridiculous distances (across the map away from them), let your team rot (not out of safety but just a good bit) while you LoS the team completely sometimes. Sometimes you can use healing tide behind a pillar at a closer distance so that you can keep your distance from the fight, depending on what comp you are head to head with.
Avoiding this damage can mean stoping the right casts with shear and grounding, and hexing the right people. If it's vs melee it's mostly about kiting, and in my experience earth grab helps a ton vs certain comps, especially like DK / warr as you mentioned before (dk's are pretty weak against roots compared to other cc's, maybe the warrior is not but at least it helps keep the dk off and allows you to heal through one person vs both).
Eventually they will connect and you'll have to use cd's, sometimes that means i want to sit through the first stun and link after or trinket link, sometimes if they reck and stun me, i'll just trinket instantly at high hp and build some distance... it's all situational and just takes a lot of experience to know what's best to do, but these are just some ideas.
Remember that you can't win without counter pressure, so make sure your team is doing that and able to do that at some point. Use your stormlash at a good time, shock a heal while you can't cast cus 3 kicks ready for you, purge some maybe. If you're playing with a rogue they can't be using every dance and vanish to cheap shot the dps off you, if you're playing with a hunter they can't be using every scatter, wyvern, and trap to peel as well, etc.
Posted Votlol on 07 January 2014 - 10:26 PM
Posted Votlol on 25 December 2013 - 09:46 PM
most of the time you have to use half of them at once together (traditionally have to trinket TO link so um yeah just one of a ton of examples), which makes it pretty tough to actually use them wrong
Posted Votlol on 13 December 2013 - 02:58 AM
Posted Votlol on 12 December 2013 - 11:40 PM
you can't just "kill it" as most classes / comps unless you're like a mage or warrior or something, not to mention you can glyph so much stuff to make it tankier.
firstly, no one plays BM. secondly, getting the cast off (if its 2 seconds) as a hunter won't even be an issue at all - you can do so much to get the pet off, and don't say "it's not worth it to deterrence to res it" because hunter pets are essential. the game is so different when you have a goat debuff on you compared to when you don't.
if the pet dies the other team actually put something into killing the pet or the healer spaced out, it's not a water elemental that just falls over
can u just not....
u can spec sac as lock as an alternative and still be able to CS and gain some extra dmg or w/e for not having pet.
idk how often u heal a hunter but ya it is tough to keep it up against all these teams that just ride it, and if they ride it without the hunter making it LOS or dismissing it dies easily. My hunter usually has to dismiss when a decent team goes on it (any comp including lock comps) even tho i spam heal it, often i have to NS just to keep it alive long enough to dismiss.
2 secs is longer than healing surge and when im gettin trained i can't get one of those off.
if u deter rez ya it's worth it, obviously because the pet is so essential, but it's stupid that you have to waist your one defensive to do it... it's like blocking for the immunity from ice block glyph in order to rez a mage pet....
a full row of dots + very minor damage, or just a warrior OR mage hitting the pet is enough to kill through heals
Posted Votlol on 12 December 2013 - 09:34 PM
i think chain sac was a pretty cool mechanic, i mean like the immune to crit is a little overboard maybe, but while it's a bit outdated, it was cool to still see one of those situations where you sacrifice some damage for a defensive (like warriors having a shield on for wall, etc). There's not much of it left but idk; when the comps hunters play generally rely on so much aggressive CC, and everyone has a million gap closers to counter their slow/snare peels, hunters don't have as much help for their teammates. Sure, now they have capabilities with trap + wyvern, but it's not the same as being able to spam fear, pollies, stuns, or interrupts; and it's not supposed to be.
But the pets are pretty squishy, i know from healing them myself i've had to spam heals and even CDs (even asked for rally for the pet several times) because it's so easy to kill, and so essential to the hunter (ros, cc, etc) but especially as BM when you rely so heavily on your pet (not just for dmg but also like BW) it's pretty dumb you don't have an answer to people tunneling your pet.
plus people should remember even though classes are getting more and more similar, not every class is supposed to be the same. Hunters rely on their pet more than other classes (like locks) and therefore should probably have more tools to keep it alive / active..
Posted Votlol on 11 December 2013 - 11:21 PM
Posted Votlol on 11 December 2013 - 04:15 AM
I think the lack of success overall for paladins is due to the fact that the comps they are strong in aren't as strong or common now, not because they are extremely weak. Mage rogue / warrior rogue are two of the strongest comps and paladins just don't really fit in the best, so it's tough to find players, especially good ones, that will run it with a paladin.
Posted Votlol on 11 December 2013 - 03:37 AM
You said that your success came from playing ret / warrior. This comp isn't really the STRONGEST, and so I could see why the success wouldn't be consistent with that comp. For one, if you played earlier in the season, it could have some effect because a lot of classes scale differently with gear (traditionally caster scaled better, for example). Someone could queue the second they log in and get their new weapons before anyone else and climb a chunk of rating as well; and sometimes there are just certain comps that happen to queue more often than others for sometimes even no reason (like now a lot of rogue mage / warrior mage because people found out about how strong it is). Rating climbing can also be random, you could queue into some luck and get high mmr people who are playing a weird comp like tripple dps, or get lucky and not queue into any comps that give you a lot of trouble (like tsg queueing into a shaman every game, lol).
So the fastest way to climb is queue with better people, and queue with a better comp. Obviously that answer isn't always an option or really the most gratifying strategy. There's always room for improvement, whether it be playstyle, synergy, or whatever.
Now the scenario you described is a somewhat typical opener for warrior mage (with orb and what not), and frankly it's bound to happen at some point in the game; the two dps will connect and you will take a lot of damage. The first thing you should do is try and stall by avoiding the warrior for as long as possible. It's difficult, as they can just run close enough to leap then charge, but if they do charge and leap and your'e running freedom you could windwalk away, or root them and maybe ghostwolf away. If you're in the open you probably will have trouble escaping, but if you're behind a pillar and the warrior leap and charges out of los of his team, you have a pillar to LOS with while trying to escape, and CC can be put into the warrior without having it dispelled (quickly at least).
Now trying to get away is important to do at the right time, if you're standing there trying to top yourself eventually you will die. Even through CDs warrior mage (even rogue mage) can out damage your heals, so obviously they can easily kill you if you run out and they connect. But try to force them to open someone else, by having your team CC the warrior if they're running in on you at the start, or just doing a lot of damage or running in first. Stay out of charge range if possible while in combat, so that they at least have to leap to connect. If you stay near a pillar it'll help to prevent swaps because it's easier for you to get away and a pretty safe distance from the warrior if your team is playing in the open.
A few tips for when they do connect are try to land good cap totems on the warrior at least (make sure you hit the mage if he has cs ready or aura mastery if you think its worth it) so that you can get some hex's off on him with like cross cc on the mage (blanket, fear, shock on polly, whatever). I like earth grab vs that comp with teammates that i don't trust to just carry the game and force them off of me (but it really depends what comp i'm playing too) so typically you should earth grab when you're at decent health and already been like stunned (ie trinket the deep orb, maybe healing tide too, and drop earth grab and ghost wolf away around the pillar; then top yourself and build more distance between you and the warrior). Trinket gate is great when they reck storm and orb together on you, other wise either trinket + link + healing tide, or trinket + healingtide + ascendance + ns; depending on rng damage / your teams positioning.
You're really relying on your teams pressure to beat this, though. Eventually you will die, with swaps or whatever. Typically I see a wmx usually either swapping shaman, or the warrior just training sham and mage hitting random stuff. In that situation I think it's all about trying to kite the warrior at the best times and get free heals off, but there are times you have to just juke the 12 interrupts or blow aura mastery because of the tons of damage warriors do. But usually people go mage, I think that's the best start unless you're swapping druid, usually (scleave has potential to kill warriors if they rot low enough to die in a stun, so keep an eye for that situation), but try to help by purging when you can and controling the mage. The team relies heavily on the mage when they play that swap style especially, so pressuring the mage hard can put him or her behind enough to where there aren't so many swaps on you / they aren't as strong of swaps.
WIth mage rogue you and your team have to prevent them from 100% training you (it's much more possible to stop a rogue from doing so than a warrior, because fears stick more, as do roots, and they are more killable, I'd say, with less frequent gap closers [plus they like to go for restealths so that alone is some breathing room for you, and even more if your team harasses the restealth attempts]). After that, it's all about trading cooldowns for swaps. The opener is typically the most intense, especially with blades (i think mages usually orb on the opener as well). I like to try and cap stun just as you said, with a lock have them sit by you and howl (maybe even trinket sap if it happens, not sure). Position while they're in stealth near a pillar, drop healing rain, have UE + riptide hots on yourself and earth shield maybe, try to healing stream right before they open, and maybe cap totem or grounding at least. Magma can be alright to have down too but it doesn't stop much unless the rogue pushes in and gets hit by it before the mage is close enough to connect (extremely rare), don't let it break cc though like scatter if you play with a hunter or warrior fear, etc. I like to sit the first opener, and possibly link right out of the stun lock, if i get to where i will die without popping anything i will trinket + link when appropriate (same global so spam them at the same time, don't trinket and get dr stunned or silenced on it). Sometimes I battlemaster to stall for the link without PVP trinket (like when i'm garroted out of the stun) or healthstone. Sometimes you have to trinket link and battlemaster + healthstone, but it's worth it if they blades and orb especially.
After that, I always try to cap stun swaps, but I tend to attempt to stick away from the mage as much as I can, as a rogue won't really be able to solo me just in the stun usually, but be careful because if you get caught with both of them on you and no teammates, you can easily die in the stuns. Sometimes I try to healingtide the swaps, and always try to healing stream them (assuming i don't tide). Try to let your team know if you think you might link really soon so they can stack, and remember every game is different due to RNG damage (sometimes you don't have to pop anything in the opener like when they do not orb or blades or dance, so don't pop cd's more than you need). Use spiritwalker's grace mostly to immune silences like garrote or blanket (spam swg while you're kidney'd for example and you can immune the garrote often) or to get 1-2 surges off quickly, the longer it is up the more likely it gets purged off, obviously (make sure not to pop it before you get stunned, because if you get stunned on it you're obviously put way behind).
Like with vsing warrior mage x, it is important to get the pressure back out of the opener, as it's always been as shaman teams vs RMP. The best thing to do is put them so far behind that they can't generate effective swaps to you, or at least much less often. This means purging, shocking offensively, having great dispells especially on melee; without pressure you will eventually die and lose so it's most important that you and your team can work out enough scary pressure to force them defensive and kill. I suggest again mostly hitting the mage (rogues are a bit easier to swap to and kill than warrior as some comps but be careful, if cloak is a big stop for your team's kill potential, beware of spending too much time and too many swaps on the rogue because it's a pretty short CD / save). If you can force the rogue to stun defensively it means less pressure obviously, and usually a waste of some cd (dance, vanish, or kidney, maybe). Try to have your teammates save their trinkets unless it's absolutely needed / worth it, so they can trinket for bomb or blades maybe. Personally, I rarely have teammates die in bombs as I can just run in and link or healingtide as I'm running at them, or at least healing stream + ground something, then run in and NS; just be careful not to be too far away from your teammates (don't let them overextend too far and don't run too far trying to avoid letting them swap). You need to find a medium-distance sweet spot because if you're out in the middle of nowhere you're looking tasty to that rmx as they can just throw some slows and followup ccs on your team and hard swap you.
Your team needs to CC the rogue mostly during stuns, priority, and obviously cc the mage if they have the opportunity as well. Sitting near your lock's port / gateway is obviously really good as you can gate after stuns and he or she can port + howl sometimes both of the DPS which can negate the swap even when they trinket or wotf, sometimes.
But as I said, remember, offense offense offense. If you don't get pressure it's won't get much better. Beware, even with this advice it's tough to win a lot of the time, as it can be tough to get pressure on the mage as often as you need, and block is almost like a mini reset for them; and all they have to wait to swap you in their perfect situation is the duration of the stun DR on you for a swap that can force at least minor CD's, or even force your teammates to peel and sometiems get off the mage. With good dispells, positioning, and CD usage i think it's possible to win the majority of the time vs evenly or lesser skilled players, but I think it's a lot better with a warlock or maybe hunter.
Posted Votlol on 02 December 2013 - 04:28 AM
ya I forgot to talk about that, it's not too bad for using it to apply the haste to the blooms. I was talking more about the situations where no blooms are up, etc. but yeah. Not sure if it would outweigh the haste on blooms or not cba looking at that right now but thanks for reminding,. It does mean that if you are applying sotf to lifebloom it's better to use sotf regrowth (unless its all going to be overhealing / mana is an issue, or afraid of interrupt) but yeah. I mostly wanted to point out rejuve sotf outheals regrowths.
Posted Votlol on 02 December 2013 - 04:07 AM
Obviously there are situations where your target is possibly at extremely low hp where almost double the healing (or more) over over 2-3 seconds would not keep your target alive as well compared to an instant regrowth. But remember, this is a basis where you have swiftmended, so the player has just received a chunk of burst healing, which in MOST situations, should probably be enough to keep them alive for the duration of a genesis'd rejuvenation.
So to measure my method against regrowth, I used an undergeared druid i have, outside of arena (just being quick rather than thorough) as an example. Please let me know if i am missing something and if not then maybe take something away from my information. I kind of thought this was common knowledge but it doesn't seem so.
Outside of arena, unbuffed, regrowth is critting an average of 120k + 4 ticks of the hot for 4.5k non crits(with harmony mastery buff) (it's safe to measure regrowth critting in this comparison because it has a base 60% chance and even more with the glyph).
Under the same circumstances, rejuve is ticking for an average of 24 k NON crits (with harmony mastery).
I imply mastery buff because soul of the forest is applied by swiftmend which applies harmony, of course (just to be clear).
So with soul of the forest, I am able to get 10 ticks of rejuvenation, again, 24k average noncrit.
Regrowth heals for that same 120k, this time 6 ticks of the hot at 4.5k noncrit (when used with soul of the forest).
That is 240k from rejuvenation, 120k + 27k = 147k from regrowth in total heal.
This assumes no crits with the hots, so a maximum of 480k healing from rejuvenation, 174k maximum from the regrowth in total.
The beauty, is that genesis can be applied to rejuvenation, which essentially applies all the ticks of the rejuvenation within 3 seconds.
So, soul of the forest rejuves heal a ton more than soul of the forest regrowths.
Rejuvenation can be used with genesis to apply all of its healing over 3 seconds.
Regrowth is a ~.7 second cast with soul of the forest and its hot is active over 4 seconds.
Due to the swift rejuvenation passive, rejuve is half of a global, so it and genesis casted together take about the same amount of time as a soul of the forest regrowth, and they are instant cast (genesis can also be casted through pillars and at 60 yards vs 40 that rejuve and regrowth require).
So in conclusion, rejuve heals more (MUCH more, even without ANY rng luck), it takes about the same amount of time to get off as sotf regrowth, and with the rejuve + genesis combo, it can be used very far max range, via instant casts, and while abusing LOS.
Posted Votlol on 30 November 2013 - 05:19 AM
does it really? both seem to be a 50% snare to me, am i missing something?
Seem you are right, friend; I'm pretty sure it was higher but it must have changed or I was mistaken. Ty