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DrakeMember Since 11 May 2008
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Posted Plath on 13 January 2015 - 02:40 AM
How dare I speak on this, the most hallowed of forums, with a suggestion on how to not be trapped?
Had I not assumed that you already knew each and every facet of this game!?
Had I not assumed that players such as yourself (an entire 400 points above my lowly self!) EVER became trapped by hunters? And not only never were trapped, but never needed again to discuss aspects of their gameplay, due to it already being as near to perfection as possible?
I do apologize for being out of line! I shall retreat, now, and merely gaze upon all the scintillating, informative, bickering that takes place between never-gladiators such as yourself on AJ.
Posted Esiwdeer on 07 December 2014 - 09:13 PM
Not in World of Warcraft. In this game, if you get Sapped you're trash forever. A 27 year old diabetic named Johnwald Dickson(merely a friend of the Rogue who sapped you) who, in 2004, lived with his mother Robertsa in the swamps of North Carolina will remember killing you forever. In fact, 6 years after knowing you he will tell people he farmed you on Shadowburn in Season 6. "That kid is trash." he'll say, and nobody will defend you, because nobody but him cares. You have never even been to Shadowburn. He is still playing. He has been playing this entire time.
It starts with Blizzard. Blizzard’s je ne sais quoi is making you feel like you're really good at their games. Everyone running around is the main character, the hero, the best. The same people who 3 weeks ago were posting RealID statuses about winning the next year's BlizzCon have today listed their 5 x R1 Spectral Tiger Disc Priest on EpicNPC.
These people, when they feel like they're good and known for being good, have a great deal of their self-worth invested into their characters. When they lose it's very a very emotional experience for them. Once the game stops reinforcing their delusions of grandeur, they stop caring about it and, in the same stroke, stop caring about the relationships which are no longer useful to them.
So, we have these idiots who have invested a noticeable portion of their self-worth into a game where the outcome may or may not be changed by the happenstance that their enemy was a Dwarf. Let that sink in for a second, you nerds.
That’s the whole point I think, to watch nerds get mad because they had to fight a Dwarf, basically. Anything else just seems kind of like a waste of time.
Posted shunke on 23 November 2014 - 04:19 AM
But if you are just a kid go human.
Posted Gsgsgsgsgs on 01 May 2013 - 02:39 AM
Posted Udderly on 08 April 2013 - 12:53 PM
Glyphs in MoP offer some really nice opportunity for making changes to suit your playstyle/comp, similar to how the talent trees are now setup. There is really only one mandatory glyph, no matter what comp you play, and the others will vary based on comp/opponent/playstyle quite a bit. Here is my list:
Moonbeast – Absolutely a must when it comes to glyphs (and probably the only one). Being able to heal in form saves the global of going back into form after healing and allows you to keep the 15% damage reduction and 5% party haste from form while you are healing. This could add up to some substantial extra globals over the course of a game.
Stampede – Being able to cast stampeding roar in moonkin form will give you and your party a nice dash and breaks their roots/snares. Again, saves a global when using it. Not a must, but a nice bonus.
Omens – This change has been brutal. Everyone knows that vortex/beam was very gimmicky, but without the glyph of Solar Beam the radius of the beam is so tiny. Omens is a decent choice if you get trained a lot, since you can spam Faerie Fire to get into eclipse, but it's so little energy that I find it underwhelming. Personally, I don't run this glyph anymore since the 5.3 change.
Prowl– If you are playing a triple stealth team (let’s say Rogue/Moonkin/Rsham) having the ability to move faster for the opener can be huge. This one is quite situational though, as it will really only be important for the opener.
Nature’s Grasp – Since they’ve changed the spell to have only one charge this expansion, it’s not as powerful as it once was, but still a really good talent. Being able to use it twice as often is pretty darn powerful vs. melee cleaves. A really good choice.
Barkskin – An old staple. Great defensive glyph, so if you are playing a comp where you are the one who gets trained a lot, I would call this glyph a must, personally.
Cyclone– 5 yards may seem like a small distance, but if you ask anyone who played Moonkin prior to MOP you will hear how much that 4 yards can make a difference in a game.
Entangling Roots – Another one that sounds miniscule, but can be a game changer. Being able to get off a second root on a healer who has been root-beamed, can mean the difference between an 8 second cc and a 12 second cc from one Solar Beam. If you’re talented into vortex, this glyph becomes far less effective (no root/beams), though can still help with managing melee.
Fae Silence – This one has some really cool implications, especially in comps where you are playing more of a utility role, rather than the primary damage dealer. Being able to pop into bear and follow a deep freeze or HoJ up with a 3 second silence when training a healer can be gamebreaking. The only disadvantage (besides losing a global going into bear form) is the 15 second cd that’s triggered on FF when used in bear form. But with dispels having a long cd now, this shouldn’t make it super difficult to keep FF on that annoying rogue or feral.
Most of the other glyphs can have some significance, but IMO are not nearly as gamebreaking as any of these when you’re playing a lazer chicken. I’ll probably start out with Moonbeast, Solar Beam, and Barkskin for the extra cc and survivability, but I expect I’ll be swapping around with Cyclone, Nature’s Grasp, and Stampede depending on the comps I’m running and what our survivability finally settles down like once the devs are no longer tweaking things.
For minor glyphs, it’s mostly fun stuff, but there are a couple key ones:
Grace - Being able to jump down to Mine in AB without switching to catform to prevent damage can be huge. Hop down, cast a rejuv on yourself in mid-air and get to the lazer duty!
Stag: - This allows you to be mounted (ummm…) while in travel form. While we don’t know how this will finally play out in Arena’s with being in combat vs. not, this could certainly have huge implications depending on how they let us do it. Keep watching and I’ll update as we know more.
Tier 1 - Mobility
With the nerf to displacer beast (no longer stealths you or drops target/focus), wild charge has become an excellent choice as well. Whether it's kiting in travel form, jumping backwards just after Typhoon for some big distance to the incoming melee, or going caster form and leaping to your planted mushrooms (even on another level, like the bridge in Blade's Edge), this talent brings a load of utility. It can also be a really great tool for eating traps (drop form, leap to healer, trap). I do still enjoy playing with the new displacer, and find that I change between that and wild charge quite often, depending on the opponent and our comp. I did play with having the 15% all the time increase and since it stacks with other increases, it can be a quite nice way to just stay very mobile, especially for beginners getting used to Druids.
Tier 2 - Healing
As much as I'd like to say there is a choice, this one is a no brainer. 1 minute Nature's Swiftness with a 50% increase on any heal it's used on is humungous. With 5.2 bringing back 25% of pvp power affecting heals coming from dps specs, we should see some really nice healing from Moonkin again. Quite a bump from our really mediocre cata healing. It's also great for that instant clone when someone pops all their cds on you and you can't cast. Cenarion Ward received a substantial healing buff and has its uses (especially vs. LSD 2.0 that just tries to wear your team down) but will be very situational. The other talent isn’t even an option, unfortunately.
Tier 2 - Anti-melee
This tier gives you a bunch of ways to keep that pesky rogue or warrior from smashing your face in. Despite the nerf to a 30 sec cd (was 20) Typhoon is still the best for z-axis maps, such as Blade's Edge or Dalaran (man that Ret is gonna be pissed!). Knocking back a rogue can give you the room to get that clone off on him without getting interrupted. It's also great for an interrupt in a pinch. Faerie Swarm has been buffed to an unlimited number of targets (huge change). Being able to keep a 50% slow on the opposing dps while your shaman goes ghost wolf can be pretty awesome. I would call it situational, now that we can tell who our opponents are before starting a match. Mass Entanglement is great against the hunter zoo, with the cd reduced to 30 seconds. You can use it from range, hit multiple targets, and the cooldown is solid to prevent DR issues. All three talents will have uses in different circumstances.
Tier 4 - DPS
This is the first tier that gives you a change to your DPS. Force of Nature is similar to our old trees, except they now cast wrath, hit a lot harder, instantly root your target on cast, and now have 3 separate charges on 20 second cds. This is a nice replacement for vortex beam, especially since trees are off the global, but giving up Incarnation damage is a pretty big sacrifice. The AI is still super wonky, keeping it mostly inferior to Incarnation. Soul of the Forest is a pick it and forget it talent. It helps you get to your eclipse faster but you don't have any control over it. A good pick for someone learning Moonkin, but the other two give you much more potential. Incarnation is pretty beast. 25% increased eclipse damage for thirty seconds is a lot of damage for a long time. Line this up with an on use trinket, Nature's Vigil (from Tier 6), and your partners cd's and you could be doing a disgusting amount of burst. Not to mention the sweet armor it puts on your character during the cd.
Tier 5 - CC
This is a really fun tier. Bash is the same as our old ability except you can use it in ANY FORM! Pretty great if you don't play with a stun class. Disorienting Roar is basically a slightly longer cd Dragon's Breath that doesn't have a directional requirement. If you are getting trained a lot, this can be a great peel, as well as a way to setup clone/roots chains. Keep in mind that unlike Dragon's Breath, this does break on dot damage. Ursol's Vortex is probably the most fun, especially combined with Solar Beam, and is easily the most potent cc in the game (since you can't trinket vortex or beam). Note* - the nerf to Glyph of Solar Beam made this combo much less potent, but it still has it's uses. I find using vortex just for peeling melee is still great, and if you play an uninformed healer, they will still panic in beam, sprint out, and get sucked back in by vortex.
Tier 6 - Hybrid
This is where we remember that we aren't just a pure lazer turret class. Nature's Vigil gives you the ability to do some healing while putting out more pressure. This could be a great cd to turn the tides when you're team is getting behind. All of a sudden the other team is taking monster damage and your team is getting healed back up. Ideally, you'll be stacking Vigil with your Incarnation/Trees/on-use for extra damage. Dream of Cenarius is going to have the least use, as it is pretty passive throughout. Unless you're facing LSD 2.0 and need to keep up rejuvs on your team non-stop, the other two talents will outshine this one. Heart of the Wild is insanely good for helping your team survive during the other team's burst. The healing is stupidly powerful, and when used right, it can be gamebreaking. Against DoT teams, just having HoTW rejuvs ticking on your entire team over the duration of demon soul/incarnation/etc. can really shut down the pressure of your opponent. The passive int is nice, too, if you want another click and forget talent.
Really good point made by HackAttack3 about the viability of Moonkin in 2's (finally!), mostly due to HoTW. Playing comps such as Lazer + Rogue/Ele/Dk/etc. can be a lot more fun, since you can reset the match with a few well timed heals. Playing with a healer is still pretty painful, but at least 2 dps is a pretty good time and makes for relatively easy point capping.
Mage: This is a really great class to pair up with, no matter which spec they are. Fire Mage/Moonkin creates a very powerful dot comp referred to as "Spicy Chicken Cleave". Frost Mage/Moonkin is probably one of the best comps you can play right now, as a Moonkin.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Roots and Novas, Deep and Bash, Dragon's Breath (fire) and Disorienting Roar(talent), Polymorph and Ring of Frost (talent). Otherwise, you have a ton of CC that doesn't share DR, which is awesome. It may seem like a lot of DR share, but there is so much cc in this comp to begin with that it isn't a concern.
- Symbiosis: Decent target, but you'll most likely give it to your healer in this situation.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Bash and Rogue stuns, Roots and Paralytic Poison (talent, when shiv'd). So basically if you don't spec Bash, the DR issues are almost non existant and you have a ton of cc.
- Symbiosis: Great choice. You both earn a huge defensive cd, making your team an even harder kill.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Nothing! The cc pairing is awesome, adding fear, more silence (shadow), disarm (shadow) and whatever talents they pick up to your arsenal.
- Symbiosis: The best swap. Disc gets clone and you get Mass Dispel. Shadow only gets a weak version of Tranquility, but you still get Mass Dispel which is huge.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Stormbolt (talent) and Bash and Shockwave (talent), possible Spell Reflected CC, Staggering Shout (talent) and Roots. Even with the DR's here, I still think it's a solid amount of CC all around.
- Symbiosis: You give the warrior a root break and he gives you intervene, allowing the two of you to ping pong around the map. Sounds like super interesting gameplay to me.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Chains of Ice root (chiblains talent) and Roots, pet Gnaw and Bash. Not a ton of CC from the DK, but he does bring grip and necrotic which are such unique (and kinda OP sometimes) abilities.
- Symbiosis: Getting AMS is nice, and the mushrooms are fairly good for Unholy. You would probably use it on your healer in this case.
- CC Diminishing Returns: HoJ and Bash. Paladins don't have a ton of cc, but what they have is pretty good stuff.
- Symbiosis: Ret is decent, since you gain an additional HoJ, but they get Wrath from you, which is something that will almost never get used. Holy gets Rebirth, which isn't usable in arena, so it's pretty much a waste.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Shadowfury and Bash and pet Axe Toss. Nothing worth worrying about, so overall the team has a ton of cc choices.
- Symbiosis: An excellent pairing. Lock gains rejuv, meaning you can have hots rolling from both dps on your team and you gain a really solid defensive cd that keeps you from being silenced/interrupted for 8 seconds.
- CC Diminishing Returns: crab Pin and spider Web and Roots, Bash and Intimidation (BM), Freezing Trap and Wyvern Sting and Disorienting Roar. Overall, not much DR and tons of choices based on what pet is used and what talents you each pick.
- Symbiosis: Unfortunately, hunter is the worst pairing here, as you gain a useless talent from him. You'll be giving it to your healer in this pairing.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Earthbind (talent) and Roots and Frozen Power (talent), Capacitor Totem and Bash. Very few DR issues here.
- Symbiosis: Ele or Enh gain SOLARBEAM!! This is gamebreaking, now having 2 beams for your team every minute. Gaining purge in exchange is huge as well. Resto getting prowl can be big for the opener, as anyone who played with a resto druid knows.
- CC Diminishing Returns: Bash and Fists of Fury and Leg Sweep, Roots and Hamstring
- Symbiosis: You gain a 1 minute disarm (awesome!) and your healer will gain entangling roots or the melee will gain Bear Hug (a mediocre stun that does damage on a 1-min cd). Pairing with either can be great for you, and double bonus if the pairing is with a MW!
How to Moonkin or Which Laser Should I Press??
Moonkin is one of the coolest specs in the game. With the ability to nuke an opponent, heal your teammates, or just apply aoe pressure, the class with the best crowd control in the game offers us the chance to bring a lot of utility, while still bringing the damage. Let's start with the basics:
As a new moonkin, you'll want to know what some of the basics to the spec are. Here are some of the most important spells and abilities:
Starsurge: This is our bread and butter nuke spell. Hardcasting this anytime it's off cool down is pretty much always a good idea and we have a chance at getting instant, no mana cost procs from dot damage to cast it again. Lining up a nice SS hard cast into a SS proc can be some really nice burst.
Moonkin Form: Shifting into form reduces your damage taken by 15%, increase your damage by 10%, and give 5% haste to you and everyone around you - pretty awesome. Try and stay in moonkin as much as possible, especially with the new glyph that allows you to heal in form. Leaving form to heal is only a good idea if you're going to die otherwise or you can line of sight incoming damage (losing the 15% damage reduction is huge)
Eclipse: This is the most important mechanic for being a lazer chicken and ensuring max damage. When you first enter arena, your eclipse bar is in "neutral", or right in the center. If you cast a wrath, it will move towards lunar first. If you cast a starfire it will move towards solar first. Generally speaking, wrath and starfire work opposite of each other. SS will always move you towards whichever direction you're currently going EXCEPT when you first start an arena in neutral - in this instance, if you cast it BEFORE you cast a wrath or starfire it will always move towards solar.
What if I can't cast you ask??? How will I ever see this amazing eclipse you speak of?? Never fear, I have alternatives for you. First off, our PvP 2 piece set bonus (bonus for having at least 4 of the 5 main set pieces) is setup so that when you get hit with a critical strike, you have a chance to gain 20 energy heading towards the direction you are currently going - it has an internal cool down, but you can get to eclipse pretty fast if you're being trained. We also have a great new ability called Astral Communion that allows you to gain energy towards you eclipse while channeling. But how can I channel while running around for my life you ask? Fear not, because our new 4 piece allows us to channel it while moving! You can also use Glyph of Omens if you need more ways of gaining energy, as this will allow you to spam Faerie Fire on your target for energy. Lots of great tools for getting that big damage.
So why does someone want to get into eclipse? Solar and lunar eclipse each add damage to some of your spells. Take a look below for specifics:
Solar Eclipse: Increases damage to SS, Wrath, Sunfire, Wild Mushrooms, Hurricane
Lunar Eclipse: Increases damage to SS, Starfire, Moonfire, Starfall, Astral Storm (same function as Hurricane)
So anytime you hit an eclipse, you want to ensure that you have your dot ticking (Moonfire or Sunfire), cast SS on cd, pop Starfall if you're in Lunar, and ideally cast Starfires (lunar) into your target (assuming you aren't tanking two melee's with a lot of interrupts available. There is much more to the nuances, but we'll get to that shortly - this is just the basics of your "rotation". It’s important to note that Wrath does garbage damage, so it’s almost never worth casting and risking the lockout – there is almost always something more important you can do with utility.
Solarbeam: This spell is what makes us super annoying to the other team. By casting roots and immediately following it up with a Solarbeam on a healer, they are effectively stuck in the beam silenced for 8 seconds till the root ends. Having the ability to follow it up with a second roots is key - and if you are playing with a mage, being able to drop this on top of frozen targets is amazing for catching multiple casters at once. Sometimes, even without roots it's really great to drop on a healer behind boxes, forcing him to step into the open to heal and opening him up to giant CC chains. Being on just a one minute cd makes this a really sick spell. The ultimate pairing is with Vortex, and in RBG’s is actually the most OP cc combo in the game right now IMHO.
What makes this spell really special, is the ability to use it defensively that many people don't fully appreciate. A frost DK standing in it does almost no damage, a Ret can't CC you or do many of his damaging abilities and well placed beam around boxes (like Dalaran Arena) can allow you to really mess up burst from casters as well. Don't be afraid to drop it on a melee thats on you and stand in it if you need to relieve some pressure.
Owlkin Frenzy: This passive is really nice for when you're getting focused to allow you to do more damage. A straight 10% damage increase is nothing to laugh at, and the immunity to pushback is huge if the other team doesn't have an interrupt available - you can nuke away!
Lunar Shower: This talent really gives us the ability to keep doing damage while moving or getting trained and not go OOM. By spamming moonfire or sunfire on a target, you build up three stacks to do more damage and the spell costs very little. It's not the best damage you can do, but helps a lot when you are forced to kite or tank melee.
Wild Mushroom: Detonate: This allows you to blow up the mushrooms you place doing AOE damage. But what is more important is the 50% slow that is put on the ground for 20 secs. for 8 yards around each mushroom. Great for kiting, slowing an escaping enemy or peeling for your team.
1. Focus Macros:
GOOOOOOTTA have those focus macros. So important to be able to keep nuking your kill target while continually spamming clone/roots/hibernate etc. on your focus target. Typical macro for me looks like this:
/cast [nomod] Cyclone
/cast [mod:shift, target=focus] Cyclone
You can change 'shift' to whatever mod you prefer (for me, shift is the most used by far) and there you go! You can now easily just hold shift and hit that same button without switching targets. Make macros like this for the following spells: Solarbeam, Entangling Roots, Faerie Fire (rogues!!), Cyclone, Bash (if specced), Wild Charge (if specced - great to go bear and charge interrupt someone/stun) and Hibernate
I like to setup macros to make it easy to keep rejuv on my teammates. This can done pretty easily in a similar fashion as above, but requires some maintenance if you want good control. I'll show too methods:
/cast [nomod, target=billythemage] Rejuvenation
/cast [mod:shift, target=sammytheshaman] Rejuvenation
/cast [mod:ctrl] Rejuvenation
This will always cast rejuv on Billy when you have no mod, always on sammy when you hold shift, and on either your target if friendly or yourself if enemy targeted (and you have the option turned on in your settings to heal yourself when targeting an enemy). The positive side is you always know who you are healing. The negative is the upkeep if you switch partners a lot.
/cast [nomod, target=party1] Rejuvenation
/cast [mod:shift, target=party2] Rejuvenation
/cast [mod:ctrl] Rejuvenation
This version will always cast on party1 with no mod and party2 with shift held down. The downside of this method is that each time you enter arena party1 and party2 can be switched around. Far less upkeep though, totally up to you.
3. Form macros
Another important set of macros are power shift macros.
#showtooltip Moonkin Form
/cast !Moonkin Form(Shape shift)
Sub in any form there and you now have a macro that when you hit it takes you back into the same form without hitting caster form. This will help you break roots without leaving you vulnerable without your feathers/fur/etc. Make one for bear form, cat form, travel form, and even swim form if you like.
/cast [nostance] !Moonkin Form; [stance:1] !Bear Form; [stance:4] !Travel form; [stance:3] !Cat Form; [stance:5] !Moonkin Form; [stance:6] !Moonkin Form;
This gives you the one button power shift macro, where you can have a single button that power shifts, and other keys for each form. Either way can work, depending on your preference.
4. Trinket macros
This may sound silly, but how many times have you gotten an upgrade, forgot to put it on your bar, went to break out of cc/activate your burst trinket and nothing happened? You can avoid that by having a macro that always uses whatever's in that slot, rather than the specific trinket on your bars.
14 is your bottom slot and 13 is the top. Easy to make one for each.
I'm a big fan of having a single button to press for that burst opportunity - it saves keystrokes which could be valuable when you only have a small window to burst.
#showtooltip Berserking (if you're a troll druid)
In this macro, it casts berserking if you are a troll, uses your pvp burst trinket if it's in the top slot, casts lifeblood if you are an herbalist, and uses your engi glove if you're an engineer. Adjust to fit your race/profs. Since trinket triggers the internal cd on the engineering gloves, you can use this once for all of your big cds, and then hit it again later to just trigger the gloves.
6. Focus Set
This macro lets you mouseover a player and set them as focus. Great for bgs, rbgs, wpvp, or if you don't have gladius in arena
7. Wild Mushroom Leap
#showtooltip Wild Charge
/target Wild Mushroom
/stopmacro [noexists, harm]
/cast Wild Charge
This will allow you to leap up on a z-axis to a mushroom you've placed, if you are running Wild Charge as a talent. Very clutch when you're getting trained.
Those would be my core Moonkin macros. I'm glad to add more if people have good ones - feel free to email me/hit me on twitter! Until then, keep those lazers hot and spicy!
Comp Playstyles #1 – LSD 2.0
This is the first, in what I hope to be a lengthy series of posts on Moonkin playstyle in different 3v3 comps. I thought we’d kick it off with one of the more straight forward (and super fun) comps that is available to us: LSD 2.0
Teammates: Resto Shaman, Affliction Warlock
Ideal Talents: Displacer, NS, varies, Incarn or SOTF, Vortex, Vigil
Symbiosis: Lock will be ideal (he gets rejuv, you get a defensive CD that makes you take less damage and become immune to interrupts for a short time. Shaman is also viable (he gets prowl, you get purge) but less important, since the lock can’t stealth so it won’t be a triple stealth opener.
CC Diminishing Returns: Shadowfury & Bash & Capacitor Totem, Earthbind & Entangling Roots
Playstyle: This comp is your traditional dot cleave. The goal is fairly simple: dot EVERYTHING. I literally mean everything, including pets. The real strength of LSD 2.0 resides in getting everything low gradually, so that the healer just cannot keep up. It’s not uncommon to be playing this comp and to see the entire team die within 10-15 seconds of each other, rather than just killing one player while the others are close to topped off as can usually be the case. Popping Celestial Alignment and trinket early can start to really accelerate the pressure, especially if you toss a vortex/beam onto the healer just before popping it so that the dots can really tick away before they are able to start healing. Ideally your Lock will use Dark Soul at the same time, and you’ll find the pressure to be overwhelming. Incarnation and Nature’s Vigil can be stacked and used almost anytime you’re free to put out more pressure, since you’ll still just be dotting, surging, and casting starfall most of the time.
It’s pretty unnecessary to ever cast in this comp, outside of a rare cyclone or using Starsurge (if for some reason it comes off cooldown without proccing), so it’s pretty new player friendly with very little fear of a lockout. I recommend avoiding cloning unless necessary, as it slows your damage down – obviously you need to evaluate the situation and use it when appropriate (CC’ing a warrior with all his CDs popped should take priority over dotting him). Very little DR on CC here, as well, and almost none of it breaks on damage if you avoid taking Disorienting Roar.
- Avoid the “finish him he’s low!” mentality when playing LSD 2.0. It’s really easy to get caught up with a player that is sub 10% and wanting to finish him off. That’s really not the goal of this comp – if you just keep on dotting and switching, something will eventually die (the damage is literally unhealable). Spamming an instant into somebody to get a kill should be used sparingly, and you should rather turn to other targets to make sure they remain dotted during that time so that everything is still ticking down.
- Shaman can actually do some decent DPS. When targets are getting low, if your healer can cast without fear of a lockout, and assuming your team isn’t super low, make sure they are tossing out a flame shock/lava burst combo every now and again. Lava burst always crits. They should also be using their fire elemental and storm last totem for that little bit of extra damage for the team.
- Use your pillars. It’s pretty easy to step out, dot something, and step back in this comp. Don’t be afraid to kite around pillars, dot and hide, and really play defensively when necessary. Your dots will still be doing damage, even if you are LOS.
Com Playstyles #2 – Dancing With the Stars
This is probably my favorite Moonkin comp to play, and should be VERY powerful this season (s13).
Teammates: Sub Rogue, Disc Priest (although other healers can work)
Ideal Talents: Wild Charge, NS, varies, Force of Nature or Incarn, Roar (defensive) or Vortex (offensive), HOTW (defensive) or Vigil (offensive)
Symbiosis: Both are excellent choices. Rogue gives you Cloak of Shadows if you’re playing against a caster cleave and he gets a damage reduction CD in Growl (his version is different than the Druid version). Priest will be the go to against melee cleaves, as he gets CYCLONE!! and you get Mass Dispel (on a 1 min cooldown). Both are very gamebreaking – if they train the rogue, you have MD to get your healer out of cc; if they train you, your healer can clone without fear of diminishing returns; if they train the healer, you can get the healer out of a clutch HoJ or Strangulate or get the Rogue out of cc so he can peel the healer.
CC Diminishing Returns: Disorienting Roar & Blind & Fear, Pounce & Cheap Shot, Kidney and Bash
Playstyle: This comp is fantastic because it can burst every minute, with the lineup of Solarbeam and Shadowdance (and Force of Nature if you spec it). In the offensive version of the comp (meaning you’re not playing against something that has very front loaded burst like TSG, triple DPS, or KFC) you’ll be picking up Nature’s Vigil and Ursol’s Vortex as well. Every one of these has a one minute cooldown, allowing you to swap onto any low target with stupid burst every single minute. The defensive version of the comp (for when you need to turtle out some huge front-loaded burst) will want to pick up HOTW for some major off-healing and Disorienting Roar or Vortex for another awesome peel cc during the enemy team’s cooldowns.
The opener for this comp will always come out of group stealth from the rogue. Ideally he’ll get a sap on one of the dps, while you open with a root>solarbeam (or Vortex>solarbeam if you’re specced for it) on the enemy healer. This gives you the opportunity for your first Shadowdance (and all 1 minute cds – Starfall, Force of Nature and Nature’s Vigil) on one DPS, while the enemy healer starts falling way behind. Coming out of the sap/solarbeam combo, if you can get a cyclone/blind off on the same too people who were already cc’d, you have a very good chance of scoring a kill.
If you don’t score a kill – DONT PANIC!! This comp is not at all about scoring an early kill. If the enemy is able to stop your kill attempt, then start spreading dots/starfall. This is a good opportunity to pop Celestial Alignment and dot everything (including pets). Your rogue can then swap to whatever target makes the most sense for him (based on positioning, relative health, stun DR) and work on setting up the kill for the next Shadowdance/Solarbeam combo. Make sure you are in Eclipse before your Rogue uses Shadowdance, and you should be scoring kills in no time!
- Supposedly Starfall doesn’t hit cc’d targets in 5.2 – until we see that this is true 100% of the time, the biggest thing to watch out for in this comp is Starfall breaking Sap and Blind. Make sure you are using it wisely (and communicating it well) and that your Rogue is watching for Starfall when he goes for a Blind or Sap (it’s something he’ll become used to as you play the comp more.
- Healer kills are VERY viable for this comp. If you are good about dotting everything during the time between Shadowdance/Solar beam cds, there is a good chance the healer will be sitting at 60-70% when you swap to him. A well timed Garrote>Kidney>Solarbeam/Vortex>Paralytic Stun is horrific for a healer to deal with. If your Rogue isn’t peeled properly through this, the healer could be in for over 20 seconds straight of CC (which he will never survive)!!
- Priest having cyclone can be amazing – but watch out for DR. If you are getting trained all game, this is a great time for your Symbiosis to be on the Priest so he can keep cloning while you are unable to. Just make sure you are communicating your clones, the same way a Lock/Spriest have to do with fears when playing Shadowplay.
- Don’t forget your offheals. Even just tossing out occasional Rejuv’s (especially when you can’t cast because you’re being trained) can be huge for your healer.
Comp Playstyles #3 – Spicy Chicken Cleave
A very fun comp that can do some insane burst when played correctly.
Teammates: Fire Mage, Resto Shaman/Disc Priest
Ideal Talents: WC or Displacer, NS or Cenarion Ward, varies, Incarnation, Vortex, Vigil
Symbiosis: Your healer will be your ideal partner in this comp. The shaman will gain Prowl, allowing a triple stealth opener, while you gain purge (ensuring that everyone on the team can dispel enemy buffs). The priest will gain Cyclone (which is fantastic for ensuring targets are getting cc’d when you are getting trained and can’t cast) and you will gain Mass Dispel on a one-minute cooldown (which can literally be the difference between winning and losing a game when you can get your healer out of cc).
CC Diminishing Returns: Dragon’s Breath & Disorienting Roar; Deep Freeze & Bash & Capacitor Totem & Ring of Frost; Frost Nova & Entangling Roots & Mass Entanglement & Earthgrasp Totem & Frozen Power;
Playstyle: This comp is a hybrid between the previous two (Dancing With the Stars and LSD 2.0), in that you will be dotting everything for maximum spread damage again, but you have that nice burst window every time Deep Freeze is available for your mage. The opener against this team can be pretty nasty if the opposing team stacks up, as you have a large number of AoE cc’s available.
Typical opener for this comp will be to start dotting the entire team, while letting the mage control melee with novas and DB (DB doesn’t break on dot damage!). Since you will be avoiding speccing Disorienting Roar for this comp, the mage should be able to DB on cd without having to worry about diminishing returns. Use Celestial Alignment when you know you’ll have some free time to get dots on everything rolling (including pets) to increase pressure on the opposing team.
Kill attempts will revolve around your Mage. When going for a kill, let the mage deep the target (with the proper mage setup for procs), while you drop a vortex/beam on the healer (if attacking a dps). Fire Mages do nasty damage in a deep if setup right (sometimes 4 instant Pyroblast in a row!), so a properly timed vortex/beam, especially if you can typhoon them back inside, will easily amount to plenty of defensive cooldowns being popped by your enemy – or likely a kill!
- Play defensive – you’re entire team is pretty easy to kill for a decent melee cleave if you get overly aggressive for your kills. Don’t get baited into bad spots just to get a kill, knowing that your mage will have Deep available again in just a few seconds.
- Any target is viable – going on a healer is pretty nasty if you can keep the dps from crushing you while you’re doing it (deep, blanket counterspell, vortex/beam/ring of frost), because of the insane amount of time you can keep the healer from casting while you blow them up. DPS are also good, though, as you can shut down a healer pretty well during your kill attempts with your massive amount of cc.
- Utilize Mass Dispel – despite being on a one minute cooldown (and costing a load of mana), this can be game changing. When the KFC gets a trap off on your priest and are trying to go mongo on your mage, using MD to free your healer will ensure they have their trinket available later on.
- Keep dots rolling – although this comp has awesome burst potential during Deep Freeze, a lot of what makes it so good is the wear and tear that Moonkin dots combined with Living Bomb and Combustion from the Mage can do to the opposing healer who is trying to keep up. Avoid overwriting stronger dots when you can, but just make sure everything is dotted constantly (including pets!).
- Fight pressure with pressure – a lot of time there is the tendency to try and offheal through enemy burst, when really you should be countering them by popping your own cooldowns to push them back. Don’t be afraid to utilize massive cc and pure damage when the enemy goes mongo.
Change Log: Updated for 5.3, 6/7/13
Contributors: Udderly, Snuggli, HackAttack3
Posted Nightmonkey on 02 April 2013 - 12:41 AM
The guides that are currently stickied to the top of this Forum are more of a history lesson than anything else. I thought it would be a good idea to post an up to date one. If this guide looks familiar, it's because I used the same format that Vanguards used for his Ret guide. I found Vanguards' guide very helpful and well laid out, so hopefully he doesn't mind.
What changed about Holy in 5.4 for PvP?
Holy got a few buffs in 5.4. Overall none of it is drastically game changing.
Divine Plea no longer reduces your healing by 50%. Bout time.
Illuminated Healing (mastery) no longer procs from hots. Minor nerf to Eternal Flame.
Guardian of Ancient Kings has a lower cooldown and copies your healing onto your target.
Holy Insight now increases Eternal Flame and Word of Glory by 50% (up from 25%)
Holy Shock's mana cost reduced by 50%
Judgment mana cost up to 12% from 5% of base mana
The highlighted talents are the most commonly used talents for Holy Paladins. This is not a definitive selection of talents as they all have their different uses.
Speed of Light: the best choice in my opinion. This talent provides a burst of speed that is not on the GCD and can be used while silenced. This means that you can always use it exactly when you need it.
As Holy you won't always have the GCDs to spare to get a sprint through Long Arm of the Law when you really need it. Pursuit of Justice is nice as well but in my experience it won't save your life or help you get into range to land HoJ like Speed of Light will.
Fist of Justice, Repentance, Evil is a Point of View
I've lumped all of these into one category because they are all viable. The biggest thing you need to consider when you choose one of these is what CC's your team currently has, and which of them share a DR with your talent choice.
Ideally you want to choose a talent that does not share a DR with your team's main sources of CC. For example, if you are playing with a Warlock you probably shouldn't use EPV. Repentance is questionable too because it breaks on damage, and Warlocks like to dot things up. In this case Fist of Justice would probably be best.
This is the train of thought that you should go through each time you play a different comp.
Eternal Flame: This is the one to get.
Sacred Shield: Even with the changes to Sacred Shield in 5.4, I typically do not use it. This is a complete flip flop from what I used to have in this guide. I used to think it was great until I started using Eternal Flame more often, now I never want to use anything but Eternal Flame. I can't really think of a situation where Sacred Shield would be preferable to Eternal Flame.
I do not recommend Selfless Healer to Holy Paladins. This is because of all of the spread damage going around, the increase to Judgment's mana cost, and the fact that you need to spend 3 GCD's before this talent really kicks in. Any good Warrior will use Thunderclap to spread Deep Wounds, and that damage alone will eventually put you behind in healing without Eternal Flame.
Clemency: the preferred choice most all of the time for me. This talent allows you to give freedom to your team mates, yet still have 1 charge available to you in case you get switched to. It also allows you two get out of jail free cards against CC that breaks on damage through Hand of Sacrifice. Also with 2 charges on Hand of Protection you should almost never find yourself coming up short on immunities for yourself or your team mates.
Unbreakable Spirit: The change to this ability puts it on par with Clemency. This is the talent to use if you are having trouble with wizards, or you are simply getting trained a lot. This is something you will benefit from changing on a game by game basis depending on what will help the most.
Hand of Purity: also a viable choice, though not one I typically recommend. It is a highly specialized talent that is only really useful against teams with more than one DoT class. The 10% damage reduction that they added to it in 5.2 doesn't even begin to make up for all the utility you lose from not using Clemency. This is a talent you will only use against certain teams, but in those specific situations it can really shine.
Divine Purpose: a really strong and random talent. Sometimes it will proc exactly when you need it, sometimes it won't. It can completely turn games around if it procs back to back when somebody is low, which seems to happen frequently because of its high proc chance.
Holy Avenger: also a very strong talent, but it is not random. This talent is for somebody who does not like RNG and would prefer on demand burst healing with a cooldown. I typically choose this talent for RBG's and sometimes for 5v5. This talent gives you another button to press when things really start getting wild.
I have experimented with Sanctified Wrath in the past, but I do not feel like it is as strong as the other two. I think Holy Avenger provides better controlled burst healing, and Divine Purpose will probably do more for you over the course of a match.
Holy Prism: the only real choice for PvP. The cooldown on the other two talents is far too long for them to really be viable. Be careful not to use it on a friendly target if they are standing near an enemy player that is CC'd by something that breaks on damage (Freezing Trap, Polymorph, etc) because the Prism will break them out of it. Try and make an effort to use this on an enemy player whenever you can because it actually does a ton of spread healing. This is especially important/useful in RBG's.
Light's Hammer might be useful since 5.2 added a snare to it, so it works like a 14 second AOE snare. If you feel like you don't need the superior healing from Holy Prism you might find this useful as a kiting tool. Execution Sentence used to be a cool talent until they changed PvP Power to not benefit healer damage. The new dispel protection on it makes it more attractive, but I still would not recommend it.
Beacon of Light (highly recommended) - I always use this glyph. It is amazing.
Flash of Light (highly recommended) - Gives a nice little boost to your next heal after flash.
Divine Protection - Use this as your third against any double physical damage team.
Glyph of Devotion Aura - If you are not playing with wizards, this is a strong choice
Gems / Enchants / Stats
Priorities for Stats:
This is an area of a lot of discussion and debate for Holy Paladins. I would actually like some input here, but I will try to present several options as best I can.
Intellect and Spirit are your two main stats. You want both of these stats on most of your gear. Paladins don't really have mana troubles these days. They do have troubles with getting chain CC'd though, so you want whatever few heals you can get out in between CC's to be strong.
Mastery and Crit are the two secondary stats that tend to attract the most controversy. After experimenting with a Mastery setup and a Crit setup, I think Crit is probably superior. The sheer number of procs you get from Holy Shock really starts to feel mandatory in today's arena environment.
I feel like Haste deserves a mention as well because Paladins have a fair amount of abilities that benefit from it. Sacred Shield, Repentance, Blinding Light, and every casted heal all benefit from Haste.
At the end of the day, whatever feels best to you is what you should do. After personally trying full mastery, full haste, and full crit, my personal opinion is that crit seems to be the best.
PvP Power and Resilience:
Blizzard turned PvP Power and Resil on it's head. The gems have been severely nerfed and your base PvP Power and Resil will mostly come from your PvP gear. Your weapon and trinkets are your most important pieces for these stats, use the PvP pieces in these slots.
Meta - 432 Spirit / +3% Critical Effect or your personal preference
Red - 160 Intellect
Yellow - 80 Intellect / 160 Crit (or Mastery)
Blue - 80 Intellect / 160 Spirit
Shoulders - 200 Intellect / 100 Crit
Back - 180 Intellect
Chest - 200 Resilience
Wrist - 180 Intellect
Hands - 170 Mastery
Legs - 285 Intellect / 165 Spirit
Feet - 140 Mastery / Run Speed
Weapon - Jade Spirit
Off Hand - 165 Intellect
This is where the personal preference and a lot of debate comes in. I used to prefer to reforge out of Haste/Crit into Mastery. Now I do the opposite and reforge into crit. I reforge into Spirit wherever I can, though I think it's just one ring and your weapon where this is possible. It's hard to go wrong really.
Viable Holy Comps
Once again I think Holy Paladins are kind of in a rough spot this season. I don't think they're the worst but they're definitely not the best either.
To be honest I haven't played very much this patch, but it looks like your best option will be to make friends with a good Warrior if you haven't by now. Once you have that taken care of, add in just about anything else and you have something that has potential to get to high ratings.
Some of the most notable Paladin comps in no particular order:
General Arena Tips for Holy Paladins
Make sure to keep rebuffing Might/Kings as long as your team is above 85%. In 5.3 the mana cost came down on these buffs significantly, so this is even easier to do now.
Prioritize dispels on your most supportive classes. When your team is going offensive make sure to dispel CC that is "full" to maximize uptime for your mongoloid team mate.
Also just be really vocal with team mates when you don't have trinket or bubble, letting them know the other team is about to swap onto you before they do could really change the outcome of their swap.
I don't use a ton of macros, but I find the ones I use to be absolutely essential. I'll put a couple here, maybe someone will find them useful.
Mouseover Cleanse & Self Cleanse
/cast [target=mouseover, exists] [help] [target=player] Cleanse
/cast [target=Player] Cleanse
My personal Preference is to use a Mouseover macro for cleansing. You hover over somebody's raid frame, name plate, or character and then use this macro. I didn't like how it behaved when I tried to self cast it, so I made another macro and bound it to ALT + my cleanse binding. You can replace Cleanse with any other ability in this macro if you like how it works.
Psyfiend Turn Evil
#showtooltip Turn Evil
/targetexact [noharm] Psyfiend
/use [harm]Turn Evil
If you're too lazy to manually target the Psyfiend. I don't actually use this one, but some may find it useful.
#showtooltip Devotion Aura
/cast Devotion Aura
#showtooltip Hand of Sacrifice
/cast Hand of Sacrifice
The purpose of these macros is to stop whatever your character is currently doing and cast a more important spell. This is usually only used for very important spells that are time sensitive such as Bubble, Devotion Aura, Hand of Sacrifice, etc. It makes sure that the important spell goes off when you press the button, no matter what else your character may be doing.
Adding Party1,2,3 targeting support to your macros
Personally I do not usually use this style of macro, but they are very useful and considered by most to be the proper way to use macros. The idea is that for some (or all) of your abilities there are 2 to 3 different binds that cast the same spell, but on a different person.
Here is an example:
Let's say that R is bound to Cleanse. Pressing R will cleanse your target if you have one, or will cleanse yourself if you have no target. Now let's say you want to change things up and use a Party1,2,3 macro for cleanse, so you bind R to this macro:
/cast [target=Party1] Cleanse
When you activate this macro you will always cleanse the first person in your party, no matter who you are targeting. So at the minimum for 3v3 also need a macro/binding to cleanse your other partner and yourself.
Now that you know how the Party1,2,3 macros actually work, here is how you apply them. Arena1,2,3 macros work exactly the same way to target your opponents, so just replace "Party" with "Arena."
/cast [target=Party1] Any Spell Here
I felt like Holy Paladins deserved an up to date thread covering some of the basics. The purpose of this guide is to help new and returning players that may not know what a lot of the new stuff does.
I welcome any constructive criticism or additions. This is not intended to be a flawless and complete guide, just the basics. I'm not claiming that my word is gospel or that I am the best Paladin, this is only intended to be a basic helpful guide - so please don't flame.
If you liked what I had to say, you can follow me on Twitch, but I don't stream that often:
Posted Breadstick on 08 March 2013 - 06:05 AM
Posted Disorderly on 29 May 2011 - 05:40 AM
Posted Raycharleslol on 28 July 2010 - 01:55 AM
Posted Lolflay on 02 February 2011 - 01:27 AM
Just tossing some logic and speculation out here:
"Muerdepiedras" = some spanish word, afaik.
"Druckwelle" = german
We're left with Impact and Riposte, and seeing we're missing french, let's try to translate it.
"Riposte" on French means "Response", so let's assume "Riposte" is the french BG.
"Impact" obviously being the English based BG.
Now that we got that sorted out, you all know about the bug with queues that you can't get the foreign language opponents in neither arena or rated BGs/ordinary BGs, perhaps this what I'm saying is way easier for them to do ?
Think about it. They're possibly merging all the language regions into their own respective huge mega-battlegroups ?
Would leave English, German, French, Spanish, Russian based players, all with their own BGs.
Tin foil hat and speculations, maybe, but it kinda makes sense.
I just thought of that when I saw there's 4 new BGs and each of them has a specific language tied to it except Impact, so that'd make sense imo.
Posted Tamz on 19 January 2011 - 10:46 PM
AIDS has the benefit of being undispellable as well.
Posted NoïnDK1296685357 on 22 December 2010 - 08:31 AM
The fact that it got fixed in Europe's maintenance but not in America's maintenance means Blizzard just realized the bug exists today, and since the bug is so obvious when playing any arenas, it must mean that no one at Blizzard played in the last week.
Again, a specious argument. Q&A handles lots of stuff on a daily basis: a ratings inflation bug in the first week of the season isn't a particularly noteworthy issue, despite all the whining about it. I must reemphasize the "first week of the season" part.
They could easily have been aware of the bug, but didn't have a fix in time for America's maintenance, especially if the issue was given low priority. Just as likely, they might have had a fix, but held off on fixing it until other issues immediately related to it (like conquest points scaling and such) could be fixed as well, seeing as these solutions can't be hotfixed and require actual server maintenance.
All we know is that the solutions were recently approved and happened to coincide neatly with weekly European maintenance. We do not know how long they have known about the bug or what the timetable was on fixing it. Hence why the position is unfalsifiable: there are plenty of other possible explanations and we have no way to verify any of them.
The notion that nobody at Blizzard plays Arenas or shows any interest in PVP is simply ridiculous. Just because something doesn't happen on your particular timetable at a multifaceted, multinational company that handles multiple online games at once doesn't mean they're ignorant of the issue. It might just be they're a company with limited resources and different priorities.
Posted Default on 18 October 2010 - 04:43 AM
WHAT NEEDS TO BE NERFED IS HEALING, NOT RESILIENCE
Original Post: Most people don’t understand how resilience works and why it does, this is a quick post to explain the math behind resilience and to educate the general public on the whole new “RESIL IS OP LOL” craze. Please leave suggestions. tl;dr resil is op, stack it.
On my warrior, I’ve tested with various amounts of resil and have averaged out that 1 point of resil is equal to roughly 0.028285% damage reduction (as shown on tooltip).
This comes out to 2.8285% damage reduction per 100 points of resilience. However, Blizzard has recently buffed resilience by 50%. Taken from GC’s post: “5) We increased the benefit of resilience by 50% for players level 80 and below. The tooltips will probably not reflect this change.”
Therefore, 1 point of resilience is worth 0.42428% damage reduction. The following graph depicts the amounts of resil needed to reach X amounts of damage reduction. I believe the cap is 75% but if I’m mistaken here, please correct me.
The equations are included in the graph legend so you can test for yourself.
High Quality Link: http://img690.images...6120/resilv.png
At 590 resil, you receive 25% damage reduction. At 1179, you receive 50% damage reduction, and at 1768, you receive 75% damage reduction. Since the amount of resil you get per point scales linearly, why does this become overpowered? The answer can be found by looking at the armor function.
The mitigation you receive from the armor function scales with diminishing returns. At 5000 armor, you may get an extra 1.0% mitigation per 100 armor, but at 30,000 armor, an extra 100 armor will maybe net you only an extra 0.05% mitigation. Your mitigation seems to be scaling with really bad diminishing returns but in reality, your time to live scales linearly and each point of armor is worth just as much as the next point. This is why tanks like to stack armor, even though the returns do not seem worth it.
Resilience is like the armor function, except that unlike the mitigation portion scaling with diminishing returns, resilience scales linearly, with each point of resilience at 100 and 1300 giving the exact same amounts of resilience. This results in higher levels of resilience making the stat increasingly more valuable: (ARP anyone?). The following graph demonstrates how much more benefit you get from resilience at each amount of resilience you have.
High Quality Link: http://img687.images...6140/resild.png
The x value represents the amount of resilience you have, as a decimal, with 1 being equal to 100% resilience. The y value represents the amount of damage taken needed to die, (in the hundreds, eg. 1 =100%, 1.5 = 150%, etc). All increases shown below are relative to the previous value. “More damage needed” is relative to the value of 0 resil, or 100% damage needed. To start off, we will increase resilience by 20% to demonstrate.
At 0 % reduction (0 resil), you need to take 100% damage to die.
At 20% reduction (471 resil), you need to take 125% more damage to die, or a 25% increase.
At 40% reduction (942 resil), you need to take 167% more damage to die, or a 42% increase.
At 60% reduction(1414 resil), you need to take 250% more damage to die, or a 83% increase.
At 80% reduction(1885 resil), you need to take 500% more damage to die, or a 250% increase.
The same process with increases of 25% instead of 20% would result in: 133% damage needed, at 25% resil (33% increase), 200% damage needed, at 50% resil (67% increase) and 400% damage needed, at 75% resil (200% increase). The same is true for any value of resil. Use the equation provided in the graph and substitute your resilience values for X to test this theory out.
If it would be possible to reach 100%, or close to 100% resil, It would literally be the only stat to stack as it becomes further and further valuable. As you approach 100% resil, the limit for damage needed to die approaches infinity. Even at 75% resil, you need to take an absurd 400% more damage than someone with 0 resil to die. This is what makes resilience good. Resilience is in essence the new “armor penetration”. But the question now becomes: “So why didn’t people do this before?” The answer is simple, in two parts.
1) While resilience did grant damage reduction in the later seasons, it was not feasible to stack enough of it to warrant losing so many other stats. With resilience being fairly easy to stack at the moment as the benefit per point of resilience has VASTLY increased, this leads to people choosing resilience over other stats like intellect or haste as it is easy to reach high values of resilience. I have a human and I’m considering using the PvP trinket due to the extra 153 resilience on it.
2) “Cata will fix it” didn’t really pull through, and did the total opposite. The insane amount of damage being dished out has led to me witnessing even most plate wearers (warriors, LOLRETS) stacking resilience, something which would be rare to see prior to this change. Strength, haste, and your class’s equivalent of “OP stat” all fall second to resilience as the need to survive increases.
So how does this get fixed? The answer is simple; as you pass level 80, you lose the extra 50% resilience bonus, and therefore will probably be unable to reach high numbers worth stacking. A cap for resilience around 50% would also do wonders as past 50%, and especially nearing 75% is when it starts to get stupidly good. Nerfing the resilience function slightly to give even a bit of diminishing returns at high values (eg. Like armor) would also help to curb this trend at 85. This should be done to make resilience still attractive, yet not overly attractive to ignore every single item without resilience on it.. sorta like whats going on atm.
That’s it for now. If there’s something I did not explain well, please leave a post and I will try and clarify.
tl;dr resil is op, stack it.
Posted Myowndk on 11 March 2010 - 12:42 PM
SECTION ONE: HASTE SCALING
I figured there wasn't a thread focused on the math behind haste yet, and as there are *alot* of misconceptions about haste(such as the value of it during Bloodlust, or during eradication), I decided to make this thread.
Some general information about haste:
The first thing about haste you should know, is that it stacks multiplicatively. That means if you have 20% passive haste, and you gain an Eradication proc you then have:
1,2*1,2=1,44 --> 44% haste.
This means, the more haste you have, the better the scaling is with bloodlust and eradication.
The effect of Curse of Tongues(-30% haste) on your target's total haste:
For the same reason as above, the more haste your target has, the better it gets to use Curse of Tongues on them. When using Curse of Tongues your target's haste is divided by 1,3 , thus costing him massive ammounts of haste.
For those who don't know it yet:
The haste formula:
New cast time = Old cast time/(1+(Haste%/100))
That means that with 20% haste, your corruption's cast time would be:
The ammount of haste you need for 1% is 32,79 at level 80.
Some calculations involving haste:
Situation A: "Lol I laik haste"-setup
Affliction warlock specced into Eradication, using full haste off set gear and some haste gems to match sockets.
Around 750 haste with spellstone, around 23% haste.
Teamed with a shaman, for Bloodlust.
Using Black Magic on weapon, Hyperspeed Accelerators on gloves.
Maximum haste in an ideal situation:
750 passive haste + 250 from Black Magic + 340 from Hyperspeed Accelerators = 1340, ~41% haste.
Now, we add an Eradication proc:
1,41*1,2=1,692 so that makes 69,2% haste.
Now we add in Blood Lust:
1,692*1,3=2,1996 so just about 120% haste.
Now it's a bit hard to say what your average haste would be during a match, so I'll just make a comparision between the passive haste(23%) of this situation, and the maximum haste(120%)
For the medium value we'll take 1000 haste, and an Eradication proc, which is almost 57% haste.
Max 1,5/(1+(120/100))=0,68 seconds
Med 1,5/(1+(57/100))=0,96 seconds
Min 1,5/(1+(23/100))=1,22 seconds
It's too bad the global cooldown however is capped at 1.00 seconds, so you are sadly wasting some haste here.
Max 18/(1+(120/100))=8,18 seconds
Med 18/(1+(57/100))=11,46 seconds
Min 18/(1+(23/100))=14,63 seconds
Max 1,3/(1+(120/100))=0,59 seconds
Med 1,3/(1+(57/100))=0,83 seconds
Min 1,3/(1+(23/100))=1,06 seconds
*Note: when calculating the new cast time, you have to use the base cast time. With the 4 piece PvP set bonus this new base cast time is 1,3 seconds.
Max 3/(1+(120/100))=1,36 seconds
Med 3/(1+(57/100))=1,91 seconds
Min 3/(1+(23/100))=2,43 seconds
Unstable Affliction cast time:
Max 1,5/(1+(120/100))=0,68 seconds
Med 1,5(1(57/100))=0,96 seconds
Min 1,5/(1+(23/100))=1,22 seconds
Max 15/(1+(120/100))=6,8 seconds.
This means it ticks every 1,36 seconds.
Med 15/(1+(57/100))=9,55 seconds
Which means it ticks every 1,91 seconds.
Min 15/(1+(23/100))=12,19 seconds
Which means it ticks every 2,44 seconds.
Drain Life / Drain Mana*:
Max 5/(1+(120/100))=2,27 seconds
Med 5/(1+(57/100))=3,18 seconds
Min 5/(1+(23/100))=4,06 seconds
*Note: for Drain Mana this means that you are draining 15% of your targets mana in 2,27 seconds assuming 0 resilience.
If the target has capped resilience(1414), and therefor has -33% Mana Drains and Critical Strikes, you would be draining 10% of his total mana in 2,27 seconds.
At this rate, you can oom your target in 22,7 seconds.
Situation B: "I don't want to go over the global cd cap during Eradication"
This situation assumes a warlock who doesn't want to hit the global cooldown cap with just Eradication up. Therefor this warlock does not use Black Magic and the Hyperspeed Accelerators, and stacks a bit less haste.
Ammount of haste needed to cap your global cooldown with just Eradication up:
To hit the global cooldown cap, you'd need 50% haste.
Eradication is 20%, so you need an ammount equal to 1,2*x=1,5
The x here, would be 25%. So you need 25% passive haste to just hit the global cooldown cap with Eradication up. This equals to 25*32,79=819,75 haste rating.
So a person with 819,75 haste rating would have the following cast times, the Max value assumes Eradication and Bloodlust, Med assumes just Eradication and Min is just the passive haste.
Max is 95% haste, med is 50% and Min is 25%.
Max 1,5/(1+(95/100))=0,77 seconds
Med 1,5/(1+(50/100))=1,00 seconds
Min 1,5/(1+(25/100))=1,20 seconds
Max 18/(1+(95/100))=9,23 seconds
Med 18/(1+(50/100))=12,00 seconds
Min 18/(1+(25/100))=14,40 seconds
Max 1,3/(1+(95/100))=0,67 seconds
Med 1,3/(1+(50/100))=0,87 seconds
Min 1,3/(1+(25/100))=1,04 seconds
Max 3/(1+(95/100))=1,54 seconds
Med 3/(1+(50/100))=2,00 seconds
Min 3/(1+(25/100))=2,40 seconds
Unstable Affliction cast time:
Max 1,5/(1+(95/100))=0,77 seconds
Med 1,5/(1+(50/100))=1,00 seconds
Min 1,5/(1+(25/100))=1,20 seconds
Max 15/(1+(95/100))=7,69 seconds
This means it ticks every 1,54 seconds.
Med 15/(1+(50/100))=10,00 seconds
Which means it ticks every 2,00 seconds.
Min 15/(1+(25/100))=12,00 seconds
Which means it ticks every 2,40 seconds.
Drain Life / Drain Mana:
Max 5/(1+(95/100))=2,56 seconds
Med 5/(1+(50/100))=3,33 seconds
Min 5/(1+(25/100))=4,00 seconds
Curse of Tongues:
This section is dedicated to Curse of Tongues, as it has a rather destroying effect on your opponents haste, and therefor in some situations can be vital to keep up.
I'm not doing the entire math for every spell again here, but I'll just give an indication on the % dps loss on corruption and shadowbolt.
Curse of Tongues becomes more valuable the more haste your opponent has, so therefor it's probably a good idea to keep it up 100% during the opponents Bloodlust. I'll show you why down here:
Max haste from Situation A: 120%
Now, let's see how much that is after Curse of Tongues:
2,2/1,3=1,69 now it's only 69%
As you see, the target now lost 51% haste.
This is roughly a 25% nerf to corruptions dps, aswell as an equal nerf to his Shadowbolt spamming dps.
Now we take a normal situation with the average lock, who is running with the 750 haste from Situation A, without any buffs or procs.
Before CoT he has 23% haste. After CoT he suffers from a negative 5,5% haste.
Now, what means this for his corruption and shadowbolt? The effect is a bit less than before, it's around a 22% nerf to both.
Now, corruption is usually about 45% of my dps, and shadowbolt around 15%.
If we assume that a 25% dps nerf to both, this would mean I'd lose a total of around 15% dmg.
Ofcourse, this does mean that you would lose the around ~12% overal dmg of CoA, but the devastating effects of CoT are definitely something to keep in mind when you need to limit the opponent warlock's damage.
*Note: the effects on shadow priests and mages are even greater, as they have more spells that benefit in a direct damage way off haste, so it would mean an even bigger damage nerf for them.
Advantages of Haste:
Utility: faster casts mean it's easier to controll targets due to your reduced fear cast time.
Raw damage: in burst scenario's haste provides a lot of extra damage, specially when under the effect of Blood Lust or/and Eradication.
Drain soul: Haste particularely is awesome for Drain Soul, as it makes the first tick come A LOT sooner, therefor giving you a much better chance for a solid Drain Soul Execute.
SECTION TWO: HASTE VS SPELL POWER
By popular demand: an added section on haste vs spellpower.
Now, this is a fair bit harder than the previous calculations, as alot of the power of haste cannot be meassured by exact numbers.
(Being faster cast times on Fear, UA, faster dotting etc.)
However, some factors can be exactly measured, such as the dps difference on Corruption, Drain Soul and Shadow Bolt.
Let's make three different sets of gear, keeping in mind the stat budget of haste vs spellpower.
20 haste equals 23 spell power in terms of budget, so 1 haste = 1,15 spell power
The first set up, is one of a warlock wearing crit pieces, gemming purely for Spell power, which brings him to about 3800 sp, and around 30% crit. And only 60 haste(Spell Stone)
The second set up, uses full haste off gear, and has around 750 haste with his Spell Stone, while still having 3800 sp and 15% crit.
The third set up, uses full haste off gear, aswell as sacrificing a fair bit of extra Spell power for more haste. This set up has 1000 haste, 3513 sp and still 15% crit.
Ofcourse, these scenarios are a bit flawed, as normally the bulk of your haste comes from sacrificing crit and not spell power, but for this comparison it's close enough.
Also, these calculations are done, assuming you specced for Nightfall, aswell are using the Corruption glyph, for a total of 7,84% to proc an instant Shadow Bolt of every Corruption tick(4%+4%, minus the chance they both proc at once, which is 0,16%)
Formula: 1080+(162% of Spell Power)*Multipliers
Improved Corruption: 10%
Siphon Life: 5%
Shadow Mastery: 15%
Spell Stone: 1%
Damage reduction: resilience: around 25%
Final formula: (1080+(1,62*Spell power))*1,1*1,05*1,15*1,05*1,03*1,2*1,01*0,75
Formula: 730+(85,71% of Spell Power*Multipliers
Shadow Mastery: 15%
Damage reduction: reslience: around 25%
Final formula: (730+(0,8571*Spell power))*1,15*1,03*0,75
Formula(per tick): 710+(42,86% of Spell power)*Multipliers
Sub 25% hp: 400%
Soul Siphon: 18%
Shadow Mastery: 15%
Damage reduction: resilience: around 25%
Final formula: (710+(0,4286*Spell power))*4*1,18*1,15*1,2*1,03*0,75
Set up 1: 3800 sp, 30% crit, 60 haste.
Damage and dps table:
Damage per tick(non crit) 1574,77
Damage per tick(critical) 2204,68
Average damage per tick: 1694,45
Total damage: 10166,72
Dps including Nightfall: 676,09
Additional Corruption related dps*:
An average of 6*0,0784=0,47 procs per 17,68 seconds
Adding 0,47*3568,5=1784,2 to Corruptions total damage, which equals to 1736,18/18=100,94 dps.
*Note: this is not taking in to consideration the burst a nightfall proc generates, just the overal dps. Not does it consider the posibility of having Corruption on multiple targets.
Damage(non crit): 3541,93
Average damage: 3568,50
Cast time: 2,95
Damage per tick: 11767,67
Total damage: 70606,00
Cast time: 14,73
Set up 2(750 haste, 15% crit, 3800 sp)
Damage and dps table:
Damage per tick(non crit) 1574,77
Damage per tick(critical) 2204,68
Average damage per tick: 1631,46
Total damage: 9788,78
Dps including Nightfall: 789,06
Additional Corruption related dps:
An average of 6*0,0784=0,47 procs per 14,65 seconds
Adding 0,47*3541,6=1770,8 to Corruptions total damage, which equals to 1736,18/14,65=120,87 dps.
Damage Critical: x*
Cast time: 2,44
*Note: Shadow Bolt most likely isn't going to crit in an arena setting with only 15% crit.
Damage per tick: 11767,67
Total damage: 70606,00
Cast time: 12,21
Set up 3(1000 haste, 3513 sp, 15% crit):
Damage and dps table:
Damage per tick(non crit) 1473,59
Damage per tick(critical) 2063,02
Average damage per tick: 1526,64
Total damage: 9159,81
Dps including Nightfall: 784,58
Additional Corruption related dps:
An average of 6*0,0784=0,47 procs per 13,79 seconds
Adding 0,47*3323,09=1661,55 to Corruptions total damage, which equals to 1736,18/13,79=120,49 dps.
Damage Critical: x*
Cast time: 2,30
*Note: Shadow Bolt most likely isn't going to crit in an arena setting with only 15% crit.
Damage per tick: 11148,72
Total damage: 66892,32
Cast time: 11,49
Dps - Set up 1 - Set up 2 - Set up 3
Corruption - 676,09 - 789,06 - 784,58
Shadow Bolt - 1201,90 - 1450,52 - 1445,54
Drain Soul - 4791,79 - 5783,57 - 5819,63
The damage difference between running with 750 haste, and 1000 haste is neglible on these spells. Ofcourse you will lose additional ammounts of dmg, when we factor in the other damaging abilties.
Set up 1 is clearly inferior, but we all knew that already as haste>crit anyway.
To show how the numbers would be, if we do factor in Bloodlust, I'll show a quick table of the dps per spell while having both Bloodlust and Eradication up.
I'm not going to back this up with my extensive calculations, I'm using the exact same ones as for the figures above.
Calculations including Bloodlust / Eradication:
Dps: - Set up 1 - Set up 2 - Set up 3
Corruption - 1045,11 - 1222,96 - 1212,74
Shadow Bolt - 1877,22 - 2268,98 - 2255,27
Drain Soul - 7484,24 - 9046,98 - 9079,52
Remarks on Spell Power vs Haste:
On the spells I have compared(those spells that benefit from Haste), the damage and dps difference between Set up 2 and 3 is neglible.
The extra factors that do need to be taken in to consideration however, are the damage losses off Unstable Affliction, Haunt and Curse of Agony.
These factors might be properly compensated though, by having faster Fear casts, and the ability to dot up targets just a bit faster.
It's really hard(read, probably impossible) to give an exact value to the utility haste gives in this area. Personally however, I feel like it's worth sacrificing a tiny bit of Spell Power for some Haste, but just don't go all overboard.
I really hope this thread helped any of you out :)
Ps. If you notice any flaws in spelling or grammar, please do tell me, so I can correct them. English isn't my first language, but I tried my best.
Corrections on flawed math are more than welcome as well.