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DiasleramoMember Since 30 May 2011
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Posted Twaenkz on 26 November 2014 - 08:05 PM
Posted BluBlu on 25 November 2014 - 03:50 PM
Posted Korzul on 07 November 2014 - 08:00 PM
I can't be the only one who thought that looked like a fun game to play with a group of buddies.
Posted Seu on 07 November 2014 - 07:54 PM
a ton more classes than tf2 though and a lot of gameplay elements revealed already that will make the game play verry different from tf2
i know its normal to try to contextualize stuff you dont understand by drawing parallels from existing games but healers and engineer classes existed in mp shooters even before TF1.
Posted Blackonblack on 08 November 2014 - 08:07 PM
Posted HeyimJack on 22 October 2014 - 05:02 PM
(Guide will be heavily updated in WoD)
1.0 - Introduction
1.1 - Why Subtlety?
1.2 - Ability Prune / What's Changed
1.3 - Talents
1.4 - Glyphs
1.5 - Basic openers
1.6 - What's my job outside of burst
1.7 - How to maximize damage outside of Dance
1.8 - Stat priorities
1.9 - Enchants
2.0 - How to Gem
2.1 - Macros
2.2 - Addons
2.3 - What off pieces should I buy? (To come in WoD)
2.4 - Rogue Streams
2.6 - Pandemic Effect for Rogue buffs (To come in WoD)
2.7 - Reserved
2.8 - Reserved
2.9 - Reserved
3.0 - Missed anything / Stuff you want to see
Hey I'm Jack, I'm a 2.8+ Rogue who's been playing since the end of Wotlk. I only started PVP'ing last season mainly because of a poor computer which caused me to fps lag inside arena. I'm basically a MoP hero achieving my first Gladiator titles on 2 of my rogues both in 3s and 5s. I usually camp in Elwynn a lot and often get asked questions by other Rogues so now I'll have somewhere to direct them where they can hopefully clear up any queries they have.
Sub is the one spec for Rogues which has on demand damage which isn't gimmicky with a long cd, we're able to pump out big damage every minute and put constant pressure out in any other stun locks.
Combat is a good spec but it's far too reliant on gimpng people with random Deep insight Killing Spree one shots.
Assassination is also good in terms of damage but it's too much of a training damage spec, it's unable to get a proper opener with maximum damage as you need to get both slice & rupture up out of stealth (Will change when Assass get the WoD slice perk) meaning if you were to open with cheap there would be time between the kidney where they're not stunned it's also not a viable spec for hard swaps because of all the ramp up damage.
Ability Prune / What's Changed
Burst of Speed now costs 30 Energy (up from 15 Energy)
Nerve Strike now reduces the targets damage dealt by 50% (up from 25%) (The tooltip might be wrong in terms of 25/50%)
Tricks of the trade no longer gives a damage bonus to the target
Energetic Recovery has been built into our Slice and Dice
Find Weakness has been built into the abilities it benefited before
Combo Points are now on ourselves rather than the enemy
Rogues can now backstab people from the sides
Rogues can now ambush people from the front
Expose Armor has been removed
Honor Among Thieves can now trigger from the rogues auto attacks
Subterfuge no longer makes the rogue stealthed for the duration of the effect
Nightstalker - Not worth using, the only reason Nightstalker is good is for the vanish evis but it's far too gimmicky as at times you can vanish and auto attack out of stealth before you can get your evis off and with vanish being one of our best offensive & defensive cooldowns it isn't worth the risk.
Subterfuge - Subterfuge is currently my talent of choice I feel it's still insanely good even with the stealth nerf. There are times a rogue needs to open with Garrote > Cheapshot and it's not always wise to waste your dance right off the bat when you can force cds without it.
Shadow Focus - After Subterfuge SF is probably your best bet enabling you to get off your opening cheap/garrote pretty much free of cost which then allows you to do a lot more damage with the energy you have left. I feel in WoD this will be the talent of choice to those who run without the Energy glyph.
Deadly Throw - I feel Dleadly Throw has always been viable however it requires quite the skillcap and combo point planning, I personally wouldn't choose it over the other 2 choices in the tree because of how strong they are.
Nerve Strike - Nerve Strike is a really strong talent for rogues as it makes our stuns even more effective for peeling reducing other enemy players damage by 25% for 6 seconds this can also help towards stopping the enemy team from getting counter pressure. (6.0 The Nerve Strike tooltip is currently wrong it reduces enemy npc's damage by 50% but only 25% on enemy players)
Combat Readiness - Combat Readiness is an insanely good defensive if used correctly, When fully stacked with feint you can take up to 80% reduced damage which is huge. If you're able to predict swaps vs most teams e.g. a rogue team this can often stop the need of your trinket and even a healer cd if used at the appropriate time.
Cheat Death - Currently in 6.0 Cheat Death is very viable because of how easy it is to get dropped in a stunlock in a matter of seconds but in terms of overall use it still comes in 2nd place to Elusiveness.
Leeching Poison - Not worth using.
Elusiveness - This has probably been the best choice of talent in the tree for entirety of MoP because its on demand damage reduction and it will probably be the best choice of talent in WoD too if it doesn't get changed. If used properly feint can become such a strong defensive tool for rogues if you're able to predict swaps or damage and pre feint it. (If you're not the best at using feint you can check out the feint glyph which adds 2 seconds onto the duration)
Cloak and Dagger - This talent may as well not be in the game as it's only ever been too good or not good enough Blizzard have never been able to find a balanced compromise for it. Overall in the current state of the game this is probably the worst choice of talent in the this tier.
Shadowstep - Currently in 6.0 I feel Step is the best choice of talent as it brings so much utility to a rogue when used properly. Step's an ability that's able to be used defensivly & offensivly e.g. stepping partners to get restealths or los damage. With the removal of a lot of slows, roots in 6.0 Step is a lot more viable than previously as it can be used as a chase tool rather than a gap closer.
Burst of Speed - I feel BoS is still viable in 6.0 with the nerf to the energy cost however it can't be used the same way as before, you're not able to spam it every few seconds while chasing your target without becoming energy starved resulting in less damage output, however BoS is still an incredible tool for getting restealths and overall defensive play. (It will most likely still be a strong talent for something like 5s)
Prey on the Weak - Prey is currently the best choice of talent in 6,0 as most of rogues pressure comes from stunlocks having that extra 10% damage from you and your team is pretty huge.
Internal Bleeding - I've not yet tried this talent in 6.0 it's something I'll look more into in WoD however I don't feel it will be as strong of a talent as Prey.
Dirty Tricks - Not worth using.
Shuriken Toss - Not worth using.
Marked for Death - MFD is the strongest choice of talent in this tier and it has been for a few seasons, it gives rogues a lot of ondemand damage which is usually paired with Shadow Dance to bring out some big Eviscerates which is where majority of your burst comes from.
Anticipation - This talent comes 2nd place to MFD however it's still a good talent it just requires a slightly different playstyle and more awareness to your Anticipation stacks if used properly it can be similar to having MFD but instead of being instant it's something you need to stack up. (This can be easily tracked, see addon section below)
Venom Rush - To come in WoD (I feel I'll most likely be using this talent)
Shadow Reflection - To come in WoD
Death from Above - To come in WoD
Glyphs mainly depend on your playstyle e.g. if you play with Hemo glyph you'll find yourself constantly changing between 4 different glyphs where as if you play without hemo glyph you'll very rarely be changing glyphs.
Cheap Shot - A strong glyph to use vs melee cleaves and in general teams where you find you won't be using garrote much or where you feel you'll need longer stun locks to kill/put out pressure.
Garrote - You should find yourself using this whenever you feel cheap shot glyph isn't as valuable, e.g. vs wizard teams, rets, shamans.
Blind - This glyph is pretty much mandetory however if you play with Hemo glyph and you feel you're not ever going to be dotting a specific target i.e. the healer you can replace this with either Cheap/Garrote glyph you'll just need to watch out for dots on the target or anything that could break the blind.
Hemo Vein - This glyph makes your Sanguinary Veins trigger from your Hemorrhage dot which means you're able to keep it up much easier but this also changes your playstyle & opener as you don't need to focus on applying rupture or even putting it up.
Glyph of Energy - This is a glyph available in WoD, I feel this will be mandetory I've stopped using Hemo glyph since the prepatch just to make room for this guy.
Rogue openers are different depending on your glyphs aswell as what you're facing.
Basic opener (No hemo glyph)
Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Rupture > Dance > Ambush > Ambush > Kidney Shot > Marked for Death > Eviscerate > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation
Basic opener (hemo glyph)
Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Hemo > Dance > Ambush > Eviscerate > Marked for Death > Kidney Shot > Spam damage > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation
Why don't you 5cp Rupture in the opener?
I recieved an ingame mail with someone telling me they feel it would be better to 5cp rupture in the opener so something like this:
Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Ambush > Rupture > Dance > Ambush > Ambush > Kidney Shot > Marked for Death > Eviscerate > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation
There are a few problems with this, For starters the first ambush isn't going to be effected by SV so it'll be 35% weaker i.e. a wasted ambush for 60 energy unless you dance before which is a waste as you need to use globals to rupture inside of dance, also if you're to try this opener on a basic target dummy you'll find that you can't get the kidney off before youe cheapshot ends with the amount of globals you have, this causes a huuuge problem as you don't want your enemy to have any sort of time where they can peel or use defensives. This is tested on a dummy with full energy, chances are in an actual arena game you won't be starting with full energy because of applying slice or sapping a target.
Here are some videos which will further go into how to open on casters etc, they're from before 6.0 but they should still be valid.
What's my job outside of burst
What you need to be doing depends on the tide of the game you're playing.
If you're in a situation where you nor your partners are in trouble then your best bet is to either spam damage and get ready for your next burst oppertunity.
If you're in a position where one of your partners are being heavily trained and are in need of peels you need to step up with the removal of dismantle rogue have to be on their toes with peeling, we still have a lot of utility we can use to peel such as vanishing to throw out stuns (preferably not on the main target you need to keep him off dr for when you're ready to go) it's often a good idea to call your offstuns so people can follow up cc off them i.e.polymorph knowing he can't be kicked by a stunned target.
With the removal of Mind Numbing and dismantle rogues now heavily need to depend on shiv slows for peels vs melee cleaves, even using shiv on a feral can help forcing them to use a global on shifting instead of spamming damage into you or your partner.
Overall your job outside of burst windows is making sure you survive to see the next burst window, stopping damage & cc on your partners while pumping out your own consistant damage, if you're not doing any of these things you should be going for a restealth with a plan in mind.
How to maximize damage outside of Dance
This is a common question I get asked "How do I damage outside of cds/dance?" etc
Rogues have priorities and if you follow these priorities you'll be fine.
Disclaimer rogue damage outside of cds is bad by default (Well before prepatch at least)
#1 Slice and Dice - S&D needs to be kept up at all times as it generates 8 energy every 2 seconds it also increases your auto attack damage which is where majority of our damage comes from.
#2 Sanguinary Veins - SV Increases our overall damage to the target affected by 20% after slice this is your biggest priority, however keeping SV up is different depending on if you play with Hemo glyph or not as Hemo veins glyph makes your hemo dot apply SV without the need of rupture/garrote.
#3 Backstab over Hemo - If you can't hit your targets back/sides and you're not energy capped it's often a good idea to just keep trying to get to his back/sides and then spam out all your energy with backstabs the only time you should hemo over backstab is if the target isn't letting you get where you need to be or if you need to apply your hemo dot for SV. But if you're going to energy cap (hit full energy) you should just spam out hemo so you don't waste energy.
#4 Pooling energy before stuns - In most situations it's a good idea to pool some energy before going for a full kidney or any other stun, e,g, if you're playing with Prey and you full kidney without any damage that 5-6 seconds of 10% extra damage is going to waste where as if you stun with 60+ energy you're going to be able to spam backstab for the entire duration of the kidney making your overall damage a lot better.
Should I rupture with Hemo glyph?
Rupture is an incredibly strong ability for rogues and its damage is increased by 10% by default because of Sanguinary Veins. Even when specced into Hemo veins glyph you should focus on keeping rupture up if you're training a target but only if you have the combo points to spare and you feel putting out that extra evis won't get you any sort of defensive/healing cd from the enemy team, also having that extra damage ticking when you burst can be fairly noticable and even the difference between someone living and dying.
Mastery > Crit > Haste
To be updated in WoD
Shoulders - Greater Tiger Claw Inscription (Agility version)
Cloak - Superior Critical Strike
Chest - Glorious Stats
Wrist - Greater Agility
Gloves - Superior Mastery
Waist - Living Steel Belt Buckle
Legs - Shadowleather Leg Armor
Boots - Blurred Speed
Mainhand - Dancing Steel
Offhand - Dancing Steel
How to Gem
This might not be accurate with the recent stat squish as agility no longer gives crit etc but I'll update it in WoD for sure.
Meta Socket - Agile Primal Diamond
Red Sockets - Delicate Primordial Ruby
Yellow Sockets - Adept Vermilion Onyx / Smooth Sun's Radiance
Blue Sockets - Assassin's Imperial Amethyst / Rigid River's Heart
Not going to list all my macros here such as focus ones etc but these are just a few that might come in handy for some people.
/castsequence reset=10 !Sprint,null
/cast [target=Namehere] Shadowstep
/cast [target=Namehere] Shadowstep
/cast [@focus] Shadowstep
/cast [@focus, nostealth] Kick
Here are a few addons I use that might help other people.
Arena Plates - This is an extremely good addon which places a green border around an enemy players nameplate when they're out of combat which can help you get mid game & opener saps.
Interrupt Bar - I feel people really underestimate how useful an addon Interrupt Bar can be. I use my IB to show the cooldowns of abilities that I feel It's important to keep track of as a rogue I'll post an image below.
(If anyone wants my Interrupt Bar settings send me a pm)
Anticipation - The default combo points have a 30ms animation time which doesn't seem like a lot but it feels like a lot to me so I use this addon to speed up the animation down to around 15ms making my combo point animations slicker and smoother so I no longer have to wait for Honor Among Thieves to catchup with all the animations for each combo point.
There are plenty other good rogues who stream but these are just a few who are more consistant with how often they stream.
Missed anything / Stuff you want to see
This has been my first guide and I thank you for reading this far, if you want to see anything else I've maybe not included or perhaps something you want me to elaborate on feel free to ask.
In terms of stuff you'd want to see I can maybe add stuff like how to team fight as a rogue in RBGs etc.
Also feel free to pm me or contact me in game.
Thanks for reading
Posted akatyrone on 31 October 2014 - 08:09 PM
.spell 14914 129176
feels better, sw:d i miss u :'(
Posted Moshe on 02 November 2014 - 11:50 AM
Posted Dahjy on 02 November 2014 - 09:04 AM
Posted Wallirik on 26 October 2014 - 11:40 PM
Posted Capstone on 26 October 2014 - 07:26 PM
Posted Sosseri on 15 October 2014 - 10:55 PM
Posted Wallirik on 15 October 2014 - 09:43 PM