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Posted Chanimal on 22 June 2015 - 01:07 PM
Like the WoW PvP forums without the garbage.
Posted zzatbrah on 10 June 2015 - 08:06 PM
Posted Jim_Jim on 11 June 2015 - 05:11 PM
In my opinion, the "skill", "skill-cap", or other crap words like that are just illusions peoples tend to use just to justify a win/lose, or just to be arrogant and selfish.
It's just a matter of point of view, especially in WoW where everything is unbalanced and class-dependant. Something which is considered "skill" by someone can or can't be considered the same by another one. My main comp (ww/dk/hpal) is/was completly dumb against some classes (Rsham), but in the same time, we have to play perfectly and hope for some mistakes in order to beat any godcomp or other mages team. Same for them, they will be dumb against most of the double melee, and will have to play really good against another team. When a RMP during Cataclysm trained me all day, completly ignoring my dk/enhancement because they had instant tools to deny them, it was "hard", but when i did the same against the rsham of a RLS, it was dumb?
This led to some ridiculous forum legend, like "rogue/mage need lots of coordination to achieve a win" (Which is, as i say, true and false at the same time), "paladin used to never cast" (Which was true during Wotlk/Cataclysm if you were lucky), "double melee is easy" (Which is entirely false, healer PoV, try to play with 2 wizards then with 2 melees.), "Priest used to be the first offensive healer" (Which is historically false, during Wotlk, the first offensive healer was... the paladin, the hybrid one during S5/6) "mages cast something during MoP !" Yeah, sure, the 3 frostbolt at the end of the game when someone is dead are considered as casts. (Icelance, living bomb, orb, iceicles, and then, 1% of the damage : frostbolt.)
I saw on the official forum a post about ratio. Same thing, illusion. A perfect ratio doesn't mean you are better, when the people who look at it doesn't know your history. Which is more valuable? Having 90% ratio against people with 600 rating less that you, or maintaining your 50-55% ratio against people at your level? I had like 90% ratio in 2v2 during MoP. Was it valuable? Of course, for the guy which look the number. Of course not, if this guy knew that i played ww/hpal and most of the team we face had 500 rating less than us.
Wotlk wasn't so different, people are just extremly hypocrite and arrogant when they affirm that it was the best xpac. First, the "fun" is something personnal, and as i say previously, it's just a matter of point of view, not an universal fact. During the 4 Wotlk seasons, people complains about the extremly bursty game, that BC was better than that, that constant damage was too high, that PvE was too important etc etc...
The only thing which was better during Wotlk was the "No-Fotm" attitude of the community, especially because the levelling wasn't as fast as now. (I said fast, not easy.). But i'm 100% sure that if we go back in time, with our behavior now, you'll see way more mage/priest in 2v2, or some shadowmournewarrior/healer like you see combat rogue/heal now, or hunter/heal. Same in 3v3, most of the teams you will face will be variant of wizardcleaves (ele/destro/hpal - LSD etc etc) with PvE gear, or some TSG with 2 deathbringer trinkets.
More abilities does not make something more hard to use, or more "skill", the 2 best example i have is the moonkin during the end of Cataclysm, and the hybrid "shockadin" paladin during season 5. In a LSD2, as a moonkin, you could have lots of burst damage (shroom x3, solar buff, wrath+starsurge+boom), big dots, you could cc a guy (root/beam/cyclone/bash), while having a good heal assist. Was it needed to use all of this? Of course not, you could just dot everything, wait for your rathrak/cunning proc while jumping everywhere, and most of the time... it was enough to win. Same for the hpal during season 5, we had repentance/hoj/silence (if BloodElf), good damage, huge heal, different judgement, magic dispel... but nope. Same. Lots of the "tricks" or "skill move" are most of the time not needed in the time people discover them, or only useful in a specific and rare situation.
In my personnal opinion, it doesn't annoy me if i have fewer abilities compared to before, i would just love to customize them (which is inexistant now.). Just to have my own holy paladin, and the guy next to me have his own too. Like a mix of the old talent system (Without the boring talents and the mandatory ones), the new one (Most of the talent "change" your spellbars), and some of Diablo /Witcher 3 customizable abilities. (Some kind of spell rank which change how the spell work or react.).
EDIT : And bring back Reforging too.
Posted Bestpriestjk on 17 March 2015 - 11:06 AM
Posted Revolol on 07 February 2015 - 08:14 AM
Posted Knaittiz on 05 February 2015 - 06:07 AM
Godcomp: 2-2, all games vs Sadstory's teams, not counting one of our loss where our monk was DCed for half a minute which twitch chat called a "fake dc Kappa".
Faced godcomp a million times as paladin shadowcleave and I found that drain life is the key to staying alive as a warlock. Glyph and talent that shit and it will tick for over 20k. Granted, he will be stuck in a disarm+bash and maybe even a silence unless they want to use it on you since druids can't be dwarves. After that combo he can fake cs if it's ready and spam drain life to full lololol then they will not go on him for the rest of the game and maybe even tweet at Holinka to fix that shit.
Burning rush should be awesome with 2 druids. Your whole team can be immune to polys outside of deep+poly on your restodruid.
Just stop the clones from happening. And the deep poly/ring if possible. It takes a bit of practise but when your warlock can break polymorphs he should be able to help you stay alive.
After 10 minutes the dampening makes it possible to kill a resto druid team as LSD. Surviving that long seemed to be our only way to win! edit: faced 3 more godcomps today and won all, just survive into dampening and gg!
TSG: 1-0, the only tsg (monk) we faced was on Blade's, so they went on my boomkin, I was standing close the monk the whole game spamming fears and shit while melting warrior... The game ended in 1 minute 10 seconds. If they went on me, I would still manage to get dots on all three with the help of double shadowfury and a soulswap to the healer. Boomkin should be free to run at the enemy healer and harass him with root beam, clones and whatever moonkins usually do.
WLS: 3-0, Maybe monk lsd is better vs WLS? All games lasted 10-15 minutes. Dot em all. I use almost every cs defensively on the lock. Swap to shaman with bashes to create pressure, force him to cast and get locked, force cds, repeat. They will probably still survive to deep dampening. They will probably sit on lock, port sprint is a lifesaver in these situations, shadowfury/clone on the warrior when your portrait starts flashing red. So just survive until it's possible to kill them, kite warrior when needed, lock haunts and stuff, do more damage and hit one cs on shaman to end the game at 30% dampening. gg.
Posted Absolutely on 31 January 2015 - 01:53 AM
so you basically called the game bad for being able to play 3 tanks to 2.6k mmr on EU then tanks get nerfed now you "dont understand" why your specific class/spec got nerfed.. o_o interesting topic
in other words, I think you basically got yourself nerfed even though your class/spec is under-represented on ladder.
P.S I like ur music tho!
Posted Shunai on 30 January 2015 - 08:07 AM
I hate that everyone always seems to hate the current content.
During wotlk: "Wotlk is worse than bc"
During cata "wotlk so much better than cata"
During mop "i wish we were in cata"
During wod "last season of mop was actually balanced apart from some minor issues"
Ppl never seem to be satisfied, and something that was bad before always suddenly is good afterwards.
Enhancement (apart from 1shot-bot in late mop) always is a rly high skill cap class which is really enjoyable and rewarding to win as when you're playing vs populair comps.
Posted Shock1911 on 21 January 2015 - 11:09 PM
I am talking about blues / epics with retarded procs like
Dark Iron Pulverizer Chance on hit: Stuns target for 8 sec. low proc
Dazzling Longsword Chance on hit: Decrease the armor of the target by 952 for 30 sec. While affected, the target cannot stealth or turn invisible. procs alot
Bloodrazor Chance on hit: Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 1000 damage over 30 sec. procs alot
Those are the ones i found in front of me , I am sure i am forgetting a lot more retarded items . Feel free to post yours. It is super fun leveling with in bgs / skirmishes with items like those.
Malown's Slam Chance on hit: Knocks target silly for 2 sec and increases Strength by 50 for 30 sec.
( No DR procs ALOT )
Earthshaker Chance on hit: Knocks down all nearby enemies for 3 sec. ( No DR procs ALOT but i haven't tested this one )
Pendulum of Doom Chance on hit: Delivers a fatal wound for xx damage. ( Speed 3.90 Slowest weapon in the game i believe )
Ravager Chance on hit: You attack all nearby enemies for 9 sec causing weapon damage plus an additional x every 3 sec. ( 2x these and you have bladestorm 24/7 on fury , the item is from old SM removed from the game atm )
Posted Bigmoran on 27 January 2015 - 05:30 PM
For one thing, RBGs are significantly more complex than arenas. Team fights involve the exact same mechanics that are used in 3v3. There is cross CC, swapping, peeling, pulling back, pushing in, etc. Meanwhile there are multiple smaller game decisions being made on spot--who to send to what base, who is going to float where, when are we going to push O, and so on. It is really a mentally engaging experience. When two top teams face each other, it is literally a battle of wits for 20 minutes straight.
I don't know why there is such a stigma in this community against them. DDOSing is as common in RBGs as it is in 3v3 arena. DDOSing and exploiting at the highest levels is almost nonexistant.
Stop being so toxic and help promote an event that the community en mass can actually enjoy.
Posted Mehhx on 28 January 2015 - 06:00 AM
raw gameplay, zero editing
video had to be uploaded in 2 parts unfortunately ;
all credit goes to the prince of persia and his wonderful ability to sniff an opening for a sap
Posted Flakkar on 26 December 2014 - 10:05 PM
Here we go again folks! It's about time for the 6.2 version. Everything is different now and 2h is taking the back seat while DW appears to be the best early in the season with amazing sustained pressure and the ability to mow plate wearers into the ground!
TLDR: See my 6.2 frost stat priority and gear suggestion at the bottom.
Jan 13, 2015 - Haste rating effect buffed by 11.1%, Icy Talons buffed to 20% haste, up from 5%. Note that tooltips in the game are not updated yet (possibly requires a client patch), but I can confirm the changes are live due to seeing them on my stat sheet. See edits in green throughout the post.
July 12, 2015 - Updated for 6.2. See edits in blue throughout the post!
(*) means I assume it's correct if not bugged but I didn't test it. I'll put this next to things I take for granted.
(**) means I actually tested this to prove that it is indeed this way. For brevity, I didn't outline how, but I can if requested.
(?) means I'm not sure, but if someone could test this somehow, it would be great
Let's start with seconday stat ratings and how much damage they contribute.
Rating points required for 1% increase (** tested this myself):
Let's take a realistic but nice looking number of how much of each stat you could stack, say 1000 rating points.
For 1000 rating points you would get:
In addition, most stats scale linearly with the exception of stats that add flat % bonus damage ( Versatility and Mastery), which become more and more powerful as you add other stats.
NOTE: Crit and MS are nerfed in PvP! This may be obvious to some, but a lot of people don't take this into account when calculating stat priorities! Each Crit does 150% damage instead of 200%, and there is only one chance at a 30% MS instead of two chances. This also applies to heals!
Taking the nerfs into account, let's do an average damage increase you would get from each stat if you stacked 1000 rating worth. I will not account for burstiness here, because getting a string of lucky crits of multistrikes can always happen, but it will even out in the end, and you don't want to rely on pure luck to win arena matches.
Haste (13.86% (given infinite uptime) DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Haste is a good stat for frost and provides excellent boosts to sustained DPS. Here's why:
Icy Talons(10% and 20%) and Unholy Aura(5%) apply multiplicatively, all haste you equip is getting multiplied by 1.1*1.20*1.05 = 1.386.
Let's take an example:
I have 15.50% base haste with nothing equipped. Icy Talons gives 10% flat, plus an additional 10% modifier on every other haste effect except Unholy Aura for some reason. Unholy Aura gives 5% flat, plus an additional 5% modifier on every other haste effect. This gives 10 (icy talons) + 5 (unholy aura) + 10*0.05 (unholy aura bonus to icy talons base 10%) = 15.50. I am an NE so I get 1% Haste at night, but I did this test during the day where I did not have that 1% buff to Haste. I also did the test at night and the numbers I see are consistent.
Icy Talons (recently buffed) also adds 20% more of the equipped haste stat.
When you add Unholy presence on top, it adds yet another factor, multiplying (not adding to) every source of haste by another 10 or 20% (depending on spec), as well as adding its own 10 or 20% base amount.
1000 Haste rating / 90 pts per % rating * 1.386% extra for Frost DKs = 15.4% Haste, but let's use 15% for the sake of example since it's a nicer number.
- 15% haste means 15% faster attack speed, which means 15% more auto-attack damage (**).
- 15% haste also means 15% more Killing Machine (KM) procs (**) due to increased attack speed.
- 15% haste also means 15% faster rune regeneration (**), meaning that (for ex) over 100 seconds, a rune would fully cycle 11.5 times instead of 10 if you depleted it instantly every time it came back.
- Haste does NOT affect the GCD because it's already capped at 1 second (**).
- Haste does NOT affect diseases (**).
- Haste does NOT affect Conversion, or Breath of Sindragosa (BoS), or any skill that says it ticks "every X seconds".
- Haste does not fully kick in immediately once you start attacking. At first you will get faster auto-attacks, so about 2.6-3 seconds after you attack, you will get a second auto-attack that will be sooner with more haste. But after that, it will take around 7 seconds for runes to start coming back due to higher haste.
- Haste does not affect diseases. From my tests, diseases seem to compose at most 10% of my DPS. I don't personally think it's worth noting spread damage from having it on multiple targets as Frost spec. The damage is so pitiful that it will not factor into you winning games. You are not a rot spec.
- Haste does not affect the GCD.
- Haste does not affect Breath of Sindragosa while it's up, so it will not make it burst faster. However, it will make your runes come back faster, which might allow BoS to stay up longer due to the extra runic power you will have. This only applies for 2h because BoS is bad as DW.
- Haste can at most affect the recharge of 3 runes simultaneously. If you don't have one rune of each type depleted, then Haste's contribution is being reduced. If you have 2 runes recharging, then you're getting 66.7% of Haste's effect. One rune is 33.3% etc.
- Haste is uptime dependent. (See below for uptime explanation) This means that if you can't keep one of each rune type constantly on cooldown, then you won't get all of its DPS increase.
- Haste also adds some utility because you will be able to use Icy Touch more often for purges, plus more uses of Chains of Ice, and you will have more RP for interrupts, Conversion, and Dark Simulacrum.
- I also see a lot of people saying that if you have a crappy connection, Haste is worse. This may be real if you lose some time after runes come off cooldown. Try switching to Unholy presence and feel the effects of 10% more haste. Imagine that effect in Frost presence where you don't lose the RP gen, and see if it would be better for you.
- There is concern that there's such thing as too much haste. This is true to an extent. As you stack more and more haste, Versatility and Mastery (DW only) become more powerful, so you don't want to stack haste. You just want some of it.
Crit (3.64% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Yes, Crit is really bad, and probably the worst stat for Frost, including DW. Here's why.
1000 rating / 110 rating per % = 9.09 Crit chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding a 9.09% chance to do 50% additional damage, meaning on every attack that can crit we are adding 4.545% damage.
- Diseases can Crit! Actually all damage a DK does can Crit! (*)
- But there's a catch: Killing Machine. KM guaranteed Crits means the your Crit is useless when KM procs! Based on my tests, about half of my Oblits and Frost Strikes are used when KM is up. If you are really good at managing your resources, it might be more than half, but let's assume half for now. On my tests, my Frost Strikes and Oblits (2h or DW) combined do between 40-50% of my overall damage no matter if I'm bursting, or just normally DPSing. So that means that if half my oblierates/frost strikes don't use KM, then my Crit is not being used half the time, so the real Crit contribution is more around 4.545% * 80% = 3.64%.
As Blizzard themselves have said, Crit and MS are equal, even in PvP.
1000 rating / 66 rating per % = 15.15% MS chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding an 15.15% chance to do 30% additional damage, so by simple math: 15.15% * 30% = 4.545% damage increase.
- Every attack can MS, including diseases. I am not sure if Death Strike healing can MS (?), but I am pretty sure that Conversion cannot (?).
- Multistrikes can crit! And KM procs (if they proc MS), will automatically Crit on the MS proc.
For 2h Mastery is kinda weird and hard to calculate, but it proved to be pretty crap in 6.1. Now in 6.2, DW is heavily favored due to the savage buffs to Frost Strike and Howling Blast. So much so, that Mastery is easily the best stat for DW.
1000 rating / 55 rating per % = 18.18% Mastery for 1000 rating.
- This means 18% increased Frost and Shadowfrost damage (**). But how much of our damage is actually Frost or Shadowfrost?
- For 2h: According to my tests, I get between 25-40% Frost damage (when doing regular dps), averaging around 33%. Strangely enough, this applies even when doing crazy burst with BoS, because you are not using Frost Strike.
- For 2h: So therefore 18.18% * 33% = ~6% damage increase per 1000 Mastery. This beats Crit and MS assuming at least 25% of your damage is Frost or Shadowfrost, which is a pretty safe assumption.
- For DW: According to my tests, I get between 67-70% Frost or Shadowfrost damage (when doing regular dps).
- For DW: Therefore 18.18% * 67% = ~12.2% damage increase per 1000 Mastery.
This is the easiest one to calculate. This is a great stat because it offers healing and defense bonuses.
1000 rating / 130 rating per % = 7.69% Versatility for 1000 rating.
- 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more damage across the board on all damage DKs do (*).
- 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more healing on Deathstrike, and other heals that are not %life based. Versatility does not increase Conversion healing!(**)
- 7.69% Versatility also means 3.85% less damage taken from all sources (*).
- The PvP target dummy at the Glad Sanctum takes double damage from crits instead of 50% more - probably a bug. Multistrikes are also causing 2 strikes instead of 1.
I didn't test anything for Strength, but it almost never overlaps with secondary stats, so not much to discuss here. Even if it does, Str gets so many insane %-based bonuses from DK passives and procs that it easily outdoes the other stats (*).
Putting it all together:
- All the numbers are for 1000 rating in isolation. Some may wonder if it changes when you throw all the stats together and in different amounts. It does make a difference for % damage increase stats like Mastery and Versatility, but you need thousands of rating points to see a difference. I once graphed it out and found the sweet spots and everything, but it's not worth showing here. I think the conclusion is: stack % damage stats and just get some of the rest while avoiding crappy stats like Crit.
- Strengh is most likely the best stat in all cases, unless someone can prove otherwise.
- For 2H: Haste and Versatility are both really good. Haste is better in terms of pure math, but Vers benefits your early burst more (i.e. the first 7-8 seconds of DPS after starting with full runes). We are looking at 13.86% more DPS (but not in the first few seconds of damage) vs 7.69% more DPS (active at all times). Haste's benefits will only fully start showing up after runes start coming off cooldown. During the initial burst, you will only gain the increased auto-attacks and KM procs. Versatility does have the healing and damage reduction benefits, though they are less important for DKs compared to the damage benefit, and Haste has some built-in survivability too due to the rune regen for Death Strike, and extra RP for Conversion. This could make a great discussion to see which is better, Haste or Vers. Looking at the DK gear though, it looks like you can usually get them both together. If your connection sucks, or you think that Haste feels worse when you play, go for Vers since it is by far the best other choice.
- For DW: Mastery is hands down the best, followed by Versatility due to the % damage increase nature. Crit and MS remain crap, and Haste is somwhere in the middle. Haste is nice to have, but not nice to stack.
- I have studied the uptime requirements of Haste and here's what I see: you are getting 100% of Haste's effect if you constantly have at least one rune of each type on cooldown. That is, you must have at least 1 death rune, 1 frost rune, and 1 unholy rune on cooldown. Haste also increases autoattack speed, but most of the benefit is in the runes, not the autoattack. It's probably common knowledge that only one rune of each type can be recharging at a time (if not, see Haste section above). Haste DPS is only worse than Versatility if you are sitting on
two runes of the same typetwo rune pairs for a significant period of time. I have been checking my runes for a few weeks now, and I am almost never sitting on two rune pairs while in combat (except at the beginning when all runes are up, but it takes only 1 GCD to put enough runes on cooldown). Even if you're kited, you are still using icy touch for purges (thanks Scoot), chains of ice, howling blast, etc and using up those runes.
- There is no doubt that for 2H, Vers is better for bursting. Haste doesn't help you much if you're blowing ERW and Plague Leech.
- Crit is flat out the worst from the numbers.
So the stat prio for 6.2 DW Frost in my opinion is the following ('>>' means much better).
Str >> MA >> Vers > Haste > MS >> Crit
The stat prio for 6.2 2h Frost remains:
Str >> Vers > Haste > MS >= Mastery >> Crit
Go DW this season. The pressure it puts out is unreal! Hope they don't nerf it...
Here is my best attempt at putting together a gearset that satisfies the above.
Note: For DW I'm recommending the 4 piece bonus, but I'm not 100% sure that it's the way to go. You gain 10% more frost damage, but you're trading around 5-6% DPS and 1% damage reduction for it. If it turns out that 4 piece bonus uptime isn't close to 100% during bursts (uptime seems pretty good from my experience), then we should ditch all the set pieces and stack mastery.
Armor option 1: 4 set pieces
Helm: Set helm
Shoulders: Set shoulders
Gloves: Set gloves
Legs: Set pants
Armor option 2: 2 set pieces
Helm: Set helm
Shoulders: Set shoulders
Trinket1: Str with on use Vers
Trinket2: If human the alternate Str trinket or Vers+proc Str one. If any other race, the 800 Vers stun breaker trinket.
Weapon Enchants: Fallen Crusader mainhand, Razorice offhand
Final projected bonuses:
+8.4% MS option 1, +12.7% option 2
+43.3% MA option 1, +47.2% option 2
+11.5% Vers option 1, +13.5% Vers option 2 (with 800 Vers trinket)
+7.4% Crit option 1, +2.9% option 2
+15.5% Haste option 1, +11.1% option 2
Posted Pitiless on 13 January 2015 - 03:22 AM
Posted Gymtanx on 13 January 2015 - 01:49 AM