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#4542462 WoD S3 Thoughts Hpals

Posted Odrareg on 21 November 2015 - 11:55 AM

idk with all the nerfs to healing and the denouncex3 stacks being dispelled all at once i feel like we got weaker and weaker. don't get me wrong we're still r1 capable and all of that but i think various facts show how holy paladins are no where near the best healer or something; they're just annoying to deal with due to saved by the light maybe, but as i've always said, it's the easiest healer to counter. as always blizzcon is won by other classes (ye i know disqualifications etc but no wonder why rdruid turbo / rmd always end up being the best somehow; and ww dk is only good because of the dps classes, as paladins have always relied upon the amount of dmg his partners can do..we bring nothing but obnoxious stuns).

might be the game's meta's fault but it just feels so clunky, where if you do a minimal mistake in regard to cooldowns, you've kind of lost the game. no creative gameplay whatsoever, which leads up to a huge load of boredom and frustration for me.

#4540158 Scripted PvP

Posted Bigmoran on 17 November 2015 - 02:20 AM

I was originally going to post this article on Skill-capped. After some deliberation, I decided it would be better suited for AJ. I needed something meaningful for my 1000th post on this website. Even if you don't read this entire post, try and think about what you REALLY value in PvP. Consider what makes you happy and what makes you feel rewarded. The future of WoW PvP rests in the ability not to create balance, but instead to make the game into a rewarding and enjoyable experience.

I've mentioned countless times in threads and on social media that WoD PvP feels scripted. My attitude is not uncommon. Plenty of other players have also expressed feelings of redundancy in gameplay. Overall, enjoyment of PvP seems to be at an all time low. While quantification of player satisfaction is often difficult to guage, the drop in sub numbers--down to a point in which Blizzard will no longer report them--suggests that less and less people are enjoying World of Warcraft. The goal of this article is to show how the scripted feeling of PvP and the lack of rewarding gameplay has contributed to the growing sentiment that PvP is not nearly as fun as it used to be.

What IS the Script?

I should first explain what I mean by 'scripted.' In order to do this, consider how a script works. A script is a series of relationships between conditional statements. A conditional statement is a simple if, then relationship. Here is an example of how this 'scripted' PvP paradigm might play out in an arena match:

-If the enemy Mage uses Polymorph, then I will use Counterspell
-If the enemy Mage is Counterspelled on Polymorph, then I will use Polymorph.

While this may not seem damaging at first, consider the fact that nearly all of the important decisions we make during an arena game revolve around this algorithmic way of thinking. For every enemy action, there is an optimal player reaction that is determined by the 'script' of PvP. For every matchup, there is one optimal strategy. This makes winning feel significantly less rewarding and meaningful. The script makes arena wins feel less like an experience full of ingenuity and creativity and more like persistent, monotonous labor. If you know exactly how a game will play out, your experience will ultimately suffer.

As an aside, there is one thing that we often shake our fists at in PvP. Although we tend to hate RNG, it is the only thing that interferes with the normal operations of the script. Consider an arena game where two teams perfectly matched. They have exactly the same gear, play on the same latency, and have the exact same strategy. Assume that either team will try its absolute best to score a kill while preventing deaths of its own teammates. Under these conditions, what would determine the outcome of the match? It would have to be RNG! If one team gets a series of critical strikes or multistrikes at the right time, it will allow the match to deviate from its harmonious scripted balance. I should add that RNG (and specifically critical strikes) actually contribute to our enjoyment of the game. Oftentimes players will suggest removing crits from the game. Doing so would be damaging to our enjoyment of gameplay. While it may seem meaningless, scoring critical strikes is one of the most intrinsically satisfying elements of gameplay. We love seeing the big numbers. We are enamored by our own ability to deal damage that lights up as slightly bigger font on our screen. I am not kidding. Big numbers feel better, and in a game we are wanting to feel good.

Holinka's Pacing Argument

Recently, PvP developer Brian Holinka posted on Twitter that the average length of games during the World Championships was five and a half minutes. Loosely veiled behind this metric is the idea that PvP is improving because the duration of tournament games is getting shorter. It is true that spectators want shorter games. During Cataclysm and especially during Mists of Pandaria, many players argued that tournament matches were exhausting to watch. It was quite common in MoP to see two wizard cleaves battle it out for 10-15 minutes in a series that could potentially last five games. All in all this provided for a very boring viewer experience.
The problem with this argument is that the pacing does not matter if the match itself is painfully predictable. If you carefully watch the final series between SK-Gaming and Skill-Capped, you can see just how repetitive the game is during its 5.5 minute average duration. Every 30 seconds, Skill-Capped's RMD does the following things:

-Uses either Bash or Cheapshot on SK's Warrior
-Cyclones SK's Warrior
-Kidney Shots SK's Shaman (the kill target)
-Deep Freezes SK's Druid
-Polymorphs SK's Druid

While there is some degree of variance to how this setup is executed, the fact remains that every 30 seconds the RMD is doing exactly the same thing. So in a five minute game, you can expect the same exact thing to happen over and over and over until SK-Gaming makes a mistake or Skill-Capped falls to the attrition of dampening. And by all means, I'm not blaming either team for playing the way they do. For the most part there is no flexibility with either team's strat. I had the opportunity to talk to Healingstat (Skill-Capped's Druid) and I asked him why they never tried to kill SK's Warrior despite him sitting in Battle Stance for the majority of the game, sometimes without a PvP trinket. His reply was that they had played thousands of games against each other and that the 30-second setup strat on the Shaman is the only strat the consistently works. In other words, deviating from the script of going Shaman is utterly futile. There is no point in playing creatively because it does not win games. (I should add that I also heard that Boetar raged at Joefernandes for intervening a Blind because he "didn't know what to trinket." If there is anything that grossly reinforces the script, this is certainly it.)

Bring Back Reward

Of all the things that threaten WoW's ability to remain the most successful MMO of all time, its the fact that the game itself feels unrewarding. While I feel like the script has definitely contributed to this, there are numerous other examples in which gameplay itself does not feel like a rewarding experience. One instance of this is the conversion of many abilities into passive perks and set bonuses. Nature's Grasp was removed from the game and instead turned into a set bonus connected with use of Barkskin and Ironbark. Cold Blood was also pruned and converted into the four piece set bonus for Assassination Rogues. The real damage of pruning is that it left many of its removed abilities into mechanics attached to other spells. Two abilities became one. Two globals became one. Passives are not fun in virtue of being passive. You do not actually perform them--they just happen. Mages don't look at their Flameglow reducing damage and say, "Man, this is awesome!"

Another gross example of unrewarding gameplay is the conversion of many hardcasted damaging spells into instant cast burst abilities. Ice Nova is an ability that not only removes 50% of your root control, but also tunnel visions gameplay into managing two charges of a boring spell. Casted spells always feel better than instant casts. Hard casting involves risk and should result in high payoff. While I do think the class has some deep seeded balance and design problems, Destruction Warlocks are a perfect example of well-balanced risk/reward. Chaos Bolt is a long cast time that deals large damage. When it successfully lands, the Warlock feels like they have done something that required diligent effort. Compare this with the feeling of using two Ice Novas. There is little to no risk (outside of breaking CC). The ability is pressed and the damage is dealt. End of story.

The Hybrid Problem

While this has been an important point of discussion for ages, something needs to be done to address the strength and role of hybrid DPS in matchups. Hybrid healing was gutted for Balance Druids, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shamans but still remains a problem for Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans, and Retribution Paladins (perhaps WW Monks to an extend as well). These physical DPS classes are able to provide instant cast heals to themselves and their partners and are able to maintain high damage AND healing throughput over the course of a 3v3 match. There is no good reason that an Enhancement Shaman should be able to do 20k DPS in a game while also doing 10k HPS.

Some Nostalgia

Although he is one of the most controversial posters on this site, Bilian's PvP video continues to be one of my favorite PvP videos of all time. The RMP clips remind me of a time where gameplay was creative and each player made unique contributions to scoring kills.

#4477943 Borngood's Holy Paladin PvP Guide WoD and (6.2)

Posted Borngood on 17 August 2015 - 01:25 AM

Updated for 6.2, working on BiS gear lists, honestly gearing for paladin is interesting atm and will take me awhile to compile everything in a way that makes sense. There is not just one BiS list this season, as we have multiple gearing options to go on such as haste, versatility, and some other stats.

If I missed something feel free to comment, there were not too many changes to paladins other then these. (listing all the changes I made to the guide)

6.2 Change: The only 6.2 patch note change for holy paladins.
  • Devotion Aura now reduces all damage taken, not just magical damage.
6.2 Hotfix: Mastery: Illuminated Healing should now correctly have its damage absorption reduced by Dampening.

Sad nerf to paladins, when already struggling the most in dampening.

Hotfix: Execution Sentence healing reduced by 25% in PvP.

Pursuit of Justice: This movement speed boost is great against teams with purge such as enhance shamans and death knights, I honestly always run this as I prefer it.

Something to consider: Selfless Healer

It is important to note that selfless healer actually has a place in holy paladin play. If you could somehow master its use against teams such as turbo cleave or teams that try and oom you, it is better then sacred shield. It is relatively difficult to use though if the other team notices what you are doing because it can be purged.

Hand of Purity: The use of hand of purity is great against warlock comps, the downside is its weak against any of the enhance and ele comps out there.

Glyph of Hand of Freedom: (Sadly this glyph does not see much use anymore, you cannot freedom while stunned currently.)

Glyph of Flash of Light: Healing received from the Paladin's next spell increased by 10%.

If I'm going to fight against a comp such as FLS or WLS, I will mostly replace beacon glyph with flash of light glyph to increase healing output.

Glyph of Harsh Words: Your Word of Glory can now also be used on enemy targets, causing Holy damage approximately equal to the amount it would have healed.

For use as shockadin, the 3 shockadin glyphs are Harsh Words, Denounce, and Holy Shock.

Stat Priorities

Int > Versatility = Haste > Crit > Multistrike > Spirit > Mastery

(Recommended) Enchant Weapon - Mark of Warsong will be for haste output.

Enchant gear with either versatility or haste depending on your play style or preference.

What race should I play?

Alliance: Dwarf. The stats on medallions were buffed greatly, and stoneform is very useful against warlocks, ferals, mages, who dominate the current meta.

Final Comments and Thoughts

Holy Paladins are in a very interesting spot as of late. Coming off their best season in recent memory s16, paladins were expected to keep up dominance, as they did for awhile. But then hit with the 15% healing reduction, execution sentence nerf, and the general uprising of warlocks and spread pressure teams, has put paladins about mid tier, behind resto shamans and druids. This is not to say you cannot still be successful with
paladin, but you will notice most people who rerolled to paladin last season, are now flocking in droves to the shaman and druid class.

I promise to update the gear list this week, thanks guys. Sorry again for the delay.

#4473707 What do you think about multi strike for hpal?

Posted Jim_Jim on 12 August 2015 - 05:33 PM

I choose multistrike because it's the only stat after versatility which increase your direct healing in number.
Haste give you more holy shock, but i don't think it's worth it to have an enchant on the weapon and take the haste part because :

1) If the enchant proc on holy shock, it's a waste, because the cd is already consumed.
2) It will not save you / your partner when you are in infinite cc chain from the random mage team you will face.
3) You will be like the /random hpal who play shatter, and it's bad.

I have like more than 37% multistrike (With the 2 stacks, it's 23 without.) with my main team (ww/dk/hpal) and the same haste with all the buff they gave me (Haste, Multistrike, Crit, Versatility).

I like it. And i like being original.
Selfless healer is for real hpal. Grmbl

#4388310 ROFL Ironbark back to 30 sec cd.

Posted Shouri on 16 February 2015 - 10:00 AM

I'm pretty sure most people dont realize that the 4pc only increases by 50%, not 100%, since NS has a 50% baseline.

30s Ironbark cd is so much better than 50% more healing on NS. Even without the 4pc, NS + soul is already lay on hands.

#4387220 ROFL Ironbark back to 30 sec cd.

Posted Knaittiz on 14 February 2015 - 07:52 AM

View PostArteqt, on 14 February 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong I didn't say "THEY SHOULDN'T NERF US HURR DURR". Just saying RMD, DK+Rogue can kill R.Druids in 1 stun+silence easily now.
yep, just like any other healer.

#4371197 sad state of hpalas

Posted Knaittiz on 25 January 2015 - 09:53 PM

palas should get 200k instant heal on 1min cd aswell

#4361911 Are most healers rerolling Rdruids? o_O

Posted Jim_Jim on 16 January 2015 - 05:07 PM

View Postpharrelle, on 12 January 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Most Basic Heal? Guess what - other Healers most basic heals aren't instant either.

Posted Image Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

After 2 ice novas, multiples stun, garrote, gouge, and 2 kicks, i finally land a cast with my only source of healing which heals for... 22k.
Are you jealous?

#4362010 Borngood's Holy Paladin PvP Guide WoD and (6.2)

Posted xIntencities on 16 January 2015 - 07:50 PM

I've been looking around for an updated comp tier list for Holy Paladins. If anyone has an idea, I would appreciate it. I'm thinking War/Lock/Hpally is somewhere at the top of this list.

#4359138 Are most healers rerolling Rdruids? o_O

Posted Talbadar on 14 January 2015 - 05:38 PM

I think the changes Shouri is suggesting would be best to fix the current issues. Genesis is interesting in theory, but it's just a weird ability in a PvP environment. It's OP when it works well and terrible when you're playing against people who know what to do about it. The amount of instants Druids are able to use combined with their mobility makes it difficult to give them a hard time while healing so reducing the healing of their Germination would be a nice start. I am aware that Druids do have to cast, but it's really not as often as it could be. Bear Form seems out of control against melee and shouldn't be as effective as it currently is. I'd argue that the NS cooldown feels just right and that the Shaman talent should be reduced to 1 minute to match it. Something may need to be done about Ysera's Gift because that's just as silly as Healing Stream Totem last expansion.

I still think a good Druid can separate themselves from a bad Druid. They have great potential with mobility and difficult cooldown management especially with Ironbark having a long cooldown now. They also have to hard cast a lot of Cyclones now if they really want to get CC for their team. NS Cyclone and SotF Cyclone was not something that was terribly challenging to pull off.

#4359117 Are most healers rerolling Rdruids? o_O

Posted Shouri on 14 January 2015 - 05:21 PM

in mop there wasn't much to stand out either but it was obviously better than  this

3 stacks of lifebloom swapping automatically made healing pretty brain dead for the most part not to mention the abomination that was the old soul haste clones

Still don't understand how genesis is "skilled" at all, if anything its just reminicisent of cata shamans and it's bad design, even with a cooldown. Also don't understand the ret/druid/x complaint because someone obviously hasn't been looking at the ladder. If anything, mages set up everything for the druid healer to chain off of as well as eating interrupts since they are spam sheep lords. With how strong flameglow is and how good it is with hots as well you don't really have to worry about healing them but that's an entirely different topic.

Just leave this here I guess,

#4359042 Are most healers rerolling Rdruids? o_O

Posted Rynd on 14 January 2015 - 04:05 PM

To balance rdruids all you have to do is to give the 3 lifebloom stacks back and some other minor changes. Healing as resto druid right now is really easy compared to other healers and that is the reason people are doing well with it.

Another point is that rdruids, with the new meta game, are even easier to play when u are playing rld or ret dru / X. But that is hard to fix cos involves the whole game.

In other perspective, druid has always been hard to play cos u always had to know which target to pre-hot. But now, since the game is way slower, with less CC and less burst, u can just keep reacting like some other classes (ret pallies, dks, warriors) and get away with it.

And I disagree with u Shouri. For me genesis, after clone, is the ability with the highest skill cap for rdruids. But obviously, when u abuse it the same way pinkrangers do, it becomes brainless and unbalanced. A simple way to fix it is to put a 10-15 sec cd on it.

#4358892 Are most healers rerolling Rdruids? o_O

Posted Shouri on 14 January 2015 - 02:42 PM

Realistically genesis doesn't even need to work in arena. It honestly isn't the best source of healing and is a bad way to play since you can't prehot (it removes all your rejuvenations on everyone). The main reason people constantly use it is because it is low risk and they don't want to get locked out. Regrowth with soul of the forest does an insane amount of healing with the 100% crit chance glyph since you always get a 50% bonus heal on top of that from living seed. It's also important to mention that pinkrangerz style healing only really works that well when you're playing comps like RLD RMD etc where there isn't really a good target to hit. Most people also don't really understand how genesis works as well. It's quite punishable by dispel as if you dispel genesis you waste 3-4 of the druids globals (depending if they swiftmended for soul) prior to that and waste their time/make them fall behind.

If I could choose I'd completely remove genesis from the game, nerf bear form substantially, reduce germination (2nd rejuv healing), and maybe make NS cooldown 1.5 min instead of 1 minute.

You can literally remove genesis from the game completely and if that was the only thing done druids would still be by far the best healer.

#4344144 Noob Holy Power Gen question

Posted Rylexcamel on 09 January 2015 - 07:04 PM

as a rank 1 holy paladin player that have played this class for 6 years let me tell you the best advice:
reroll druid.

#3321591 US-Rampage 3v3 S9

Posted Vexxius on 25 June 2011 - 08:12 AM

View Postterabadthiel, on 25 June 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

I've already explained my PoV to you vexxius, but don't defend yourself against Phil or anyone else when they're 100% right, whether they're part of the problem or not

Sure, but how in the world can anyone here shed their disgust with me, when they themselves are culprits of more or less equally shady things?

For example, not to derail you dmoney, but didn't you have Waatx play with you on your team to boost you up? Think about it. Hard. How is that truthfully different from having your 3rd arena partner with a high MMR? It's really no different. Shady is shady. And now that we are all a bit shady (I only turned to the "dark side" because of all the Glad-selling going on, mind you, but that's minor info. at this point), why do only they have the right to convict me of my shadiness? That makes no sense, I'm sorry.

PS: I didn't play anyone's account (ie: I didn't boost my teammates up by playing someone else's warrior). So rule out account sharing as an injustice served by me.


@Condradical: you are very, very, very wrong sir. Firstly, I was 2814 (ironic same rating as now, but that's irrelevant) with Squanky. You can ask him. This was a very long time ago. I chose to leave the team. I could've certainly sat all season, but that's not what I wanted to do. Check my 2700 achievement, it was not recent at all (again, with Squanky as KFC - check his videos for more proof). Secondly, I resorted to "mmr exploiting" because of the PR sells. It's not hard to understand, really. Blame them for me resorting to such extreme measures.