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#4540158 Scripted PvP

Posted Bigmoran on 17 November 2015 - 02:20 AM

I was originally going to post this article on Skill-capped. After some deliberation, I decided it would be better suited for AJ. I needed something meaningful for my 1000th post on this website. Even if you don't read this entire post, try and think about what you REALLY value in PvP. Consider what makes you happy and what makes you feel rewarded. The future of WoW PvP rests in the ability not to create balance, but instead to make the game into a rewarding and enjoyable experience.

I've mentioned countless times in threads and on social media that WoD PvP feels scripted. My attitude is not uncommon. Plenty of other players have also expressed feelings of redundancy in gameplay. Overall, enjoyment of PvP seems to be at an all time low. While quantification of player satisfaction is often difficult to guage, the drop in sub numbers--down to a point in which Blizzard will no longer report them--suggests that less and less people are enjoying World of Warcraft. The goal of this article is to show how the scripted feeling of PvP and the lack of rewarding gameplay has contributed to the growing sentiment that PvP is not nearly as fun as it used to be.

What IS the Script?

I should first explain what I mean by 'scripted.' In order to do this, consider how a script works. A script is a series of relationships between conditional statements. A conditional statement is a simple if, then relationship. Here is an example of how this 'scripted' PvP paradigm might play out in an arena match:

-If the enemy Mage uses Polymorph, then I will use Counterspell
-If the enemy Mage is Counterspelled on Polymorph, then I will use Polymorph.

While this may not seem damaging at first, consider the fact that nearly all of the important decisions we make during an arena game revolve around this algorithmic way of thinking. For every enemy action, there is an optimal player reaction that is determined by the 'script' of PvP. For every matchup, there is one optimal strategy. This makes winning feel significantly less rewarding and meaningful. The script makes arena wins feel less like an experience full of ingenuity and creativity and more like persistent, monotonous labor. If you know exactly how a game will play out, your experience will ultimately suffer.

As an aside, there is one thing that we often shake our fists at in PvP. Although we tend to hate RNG, it is the only thing that interferes with the normal operations of the script. Consider an arena game where two teams perfectly matched. They have exactly the same gear, play on the same latency, and have the exact same strategy. Assume that either team will try its absolute best to score a kill while preventing deaths of its own teammates. Under these conditions, what would determine the outcome of the match? It would have to be RNG! If one team gets a series of critical strikes or multistrikes at the right time, it will allow the match to deviate from its harmonious scripted balance. I should add that RNG (and specifically critical strikes) actually contribute to our enjoyment of the game. Oftentimes players will suggest removing crits from the game. Doing so would be damaging to our enjoyment of gameplay. While it may seem meaningless, scoring critical strikes is one of the most intrinsically satisfying elements of gameplay. We love seeing the big numbers. We are enamored by our own ability to deal damage that lights up as slightly bigger font on our screen. I am not kidding. Big numbers feel better, and in a game we are wanting to feel good.

Holinka's Pacing Argument

Recently, PvP developer Brian Holinka posted on Twitter that the average length of games during the World Championships was five and a half minutes. Loosely veiled behind this metric is the idea that PvP is improving because the duration of tournament games is getting shorter. It is true that spectators want shorter games. During Cataclysm and especially during Mists of Pandaria, many players argued that tournament matches were exhausting to watch. It was quite common in MoP to see two wizard cleaves battle it out for 10-15 minutes in a series that could potentially last five games. All in all this provided for a very boring viewer experience.
The problem with this argument is that the pacing does not matter if the match itself is painfully predictable. If you carefully watch the final series between SK-Gaming and Skill-Capped, you can see just how repetitive the game is during its 5.5 minute average duration. Every 30 seconds, Skill-Capped's RMD does the following things:

-Uses either Bash or Cheapshot on SK's Warrior
-Cyclones SK's Warrior
-Kidney Shots SK's Shaman (the kill target)
-Deep Freezes SK's Druid
-Polymorphs SK's Druid

While there is some degree of variance to how this setup is executed, the fact remains that every 30 seconds the RMD is doing exactly the same thing. So in a five minute game, you can expect the same exact thing to happen over and over and over until SK-Gaming makes a mistake or Skill-Capped falls to the attrition of dampening. And by all means, I'm not blaming either team for playing the way they do. For the most part there is no flexibility with either team's strat. I had the opportunity to talk to Healingstat (Skill-Capped's Druid) and I asked him why they never tried to kill SK's Warrior despite him sitting in Battle Stance for the majority of the game, sometimes without a PvP trinket. His reply was that they had played thousands of games against each other and that the 30-second setup strat on the Shaman is the only strat the consistently works. In other words, deviating from the script of going Shaman is utterly futile. There is no point in playing creatively because it does not win games. (I should add that I also heard that Boetar raged at Joefernandes for intervening a Blind because he "didn't know what to trinket." If there is anything that grossly reinforces the script, this is certainly it.)

Bring Back Reward

Of all the things that threaten WoW's ability to remain the most successful MMO of all time, its the fact that the game itself feels unrewarding. While I feel like the script has definitely contributed to this, there are numerous other examples in which gameplay itself does not feel like a rewarding experience. One instance of this is the conversion of many abilities into passive perks and set bonuses. Nature's Grasp was removed from the game and instead turned into a set bonus connected with use of Barkskin and Ironbark. Cold Blood was also pruned and converted into the four piece set bonus for Assassination Rogues. The real damage of pruning is that it left many of its removed abilities into mechanics attached to other spells. Two abilities became one. Two globals became one. Passives are not fun in virtue of being passive. You do not actually perform them--they just happen. Mages don't look at their Flameglow reducing damage and say, "Man, this is awesome!"

Another gross example of unrewarding gameplay is the conversion of many hardcasted damaging spells into instant cast burst abilities. Ice Nova is an ability that not only removes 50% of your root control, but also tunnel visions gameplay into managing two charges of a boring spell. Casted spells always feel better than instant casts. Hard casting involves risk and should result in high payoff. While I do think the class has some deep seeded balance and design problems, Destruction Warlocks are a perfect example of well-balanced risk/reward. Chaos Bolt is a long cast time that deals large damage. When it successfully lands, the Warlock feels like they have done something that required diligent effort. Compare this with the feeling of using two Ice Novas. There is little to no risk (outside of breaking CC). The ability is pressed and the damage is dealt. End of story.

The Hybrid Problem

While this has been an important point of discussion for ages, something needs to be done to address the strength and role of hybrid DPS in matchups. Hybrid healing was gutted for Balance Druids, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shamans but still remains a problem for Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans, and Retribution Paladins (perhaps WW Monks to an extend as well). These physical DPS classes are able to provide instant cast heals to themselves and their partners and are able to maintain high damage AND healing throughput over the course of a 3v3 match. There is no good reason that an Enhancement Shaman should be able to do 20k DPS in a game while also doing 10k HPS.

Some Nostalgia

Although he is one of the most controversial posters on this site, Bilian's PvP video continues to be one of my favorite PvP videos of all time. The RMP clips remind me of a time where gameplay was creative and each player made unique contributions to scoring kills.

#4522236 TloT/Blizzcon/Blizzard/WoW Esport

Posted Cervantes_Eu on 16 October 2015 - 07:17 PM

I am posting this here cause Im geting asked about it all the time what happened with our team after the regionals how blizzard fucked us etc.

First of all for the ppl that didnt watch the eu regionals we finished 3rd place and "Secured" our spot in bizzcon,

team TLOT {Three Languages One Team} playing the most op setupPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image in the game "Ebola" DK Cervantes,Feral Fritterus,HPala Cavy.

So yea our pala "Cavy" said that 2 weeks it too much time for him to miss school even tho we had school letter and exams can be forwarded hes parents refused to let him goPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image.

therefore we had to talk to blizzard to ask him if we can make it 1 week for him to attend and be there when we have to play the games to make it less days of missing school they said No.

So we told them that we would like to have a replacement obviously (like we have seen in last blizzcon with lazer joining looni's team).
and 2 weeks agoo in the eu regionals with (Looni joining jamies/niksi) team after laguna/drainy geting disqualified.

Blizzard said they gonna discuss this after that their decision was knocking/fucking us out and inviting the 4th team (Solari Gaming.Yellow) because their rule does not allow us to have replacement, as simple as that our team is gone, even tho we didn't even have 4th player like other teams we are not allowed to have a replacement or 4th player in that situation.

how fair is it when they already went against/broke their own rule in the regionals (2 weeks agoo), the rule is invalid how come this rule is still applied against us? why cant we have a replacement and we just get fucked that way and lose everything oh wait they offered us virtual tickets!

i just love wow esport blizzard

#4518009 Ban advertisements of boosting sites?

Posted jaimex on 10 October 2015 - 09:48 PM

nope boost all day the only people who dont agree with boosting are the ones who are too shit to get a title themselves deal with it

#4516629 So legion suggestions - share your thoughts

Posted sarma on 08 October 2015 - 01:57 PM

What would you think they should do to game pvp pve?

Sharing few thoughts here , feel free to follow me

- Pve

- Removal of leveling - this thing is so 2005 - new system for progress to acess new spells ,faster progress for more skilled veteran players (must do fun lore quests)
- All zones are "max lvl" some are easy for newbie players some really hard for veteran players
- More tutorials added in game to make it easier for new players to undestand game mechanics , rotations and so on
- Daily quests tied to different zone each week - something is happening in the zone factions have different tasks and fight eachother (pvp) or work toghether agains legion influence (pve)

- Removal of LFR - LFG Takes its place

- 2 raid difficulies only - Normal (first bosses trivial , then puggable easy to last few bosses, last boss somewhat challenging) and Mythic (dungeons , raids) very hard i really liked ulduar model way more then anything else but thats maybe just me

- Removal of LFD - LFG takes its place
- 2 difficulties for dungeons , normal quite easy tied to reputations - some epics on exalted
Mythic quite hard and its loot almost on pair with normal raid loot

- Linear scaling of gear (10-15 ilvls per raid tier max)
- Very rare gear drops with cool extra proc effects or cosmetic effects - No more warforged or prismatic loot with higher stats
- return of justice/conquest progress - or something done with dungeons to be more challenging with new raid tiers

- Return of crafting and materials grinding - more reasons to be in the outside world


- More rating tied pvp cosmetic rewards and mounts
- Gladiator mount token (pick any mount from s1-current season)
- Ground mounts for rivals , chalengers and duelists , flying ones for gladiators
- All old elite sets available on vendors again (2200+ rating required)
- Removal of premade rated bgs (those are proved to be not working model)
- Random bgs have rating tied to it - solo duo or triple premade is possible
- Upgraded standard ui - insignia cd visible - Movable and scalable arena frames -  Option to make only Short term buffs and magic buffs/debuffs visible (things like horn of winter, feral crit buff and so on are just a bloat and there is too much of those things nowdays)

- Make 2v2 and 5v5 fun again - No matter what , every class should have atleast 1 viable t1 2v2 comp - no hardcounters between t1 comps , healer vs dps (at the moment nothing is happening before 30% damp atleast) fix this

- Current rating system is really bad , league or csgo ranking system is way better - get rating decay instead of inflation
- Remove dampening - or make it a tie breaker

- figure out atleast 2-3 t1 comps for any class (hybrid dps 1 comp) , rock paper scissors are ok as softcounters - hardcounters in t1 comps shouldnt exist

- Increased mana cost of healing spells in pvp mode is must

- Increased mana cost of offensive dispel is must

- increased cd of defensive cds and make them more meaningful reduce number of def cds for all dps / healers

- mobility greatly nerfed for majority of classes , expecially healers - remove no cd sprints

- selfhealing on dps classes nerfed greatly or atleast if we have them then those need to be great dps loss and those should waste resources way more then they do Nature vigil and guidance are prime examples of what shouldnt be in the game

Now example how it should be (instant healing touch costs 5cp instead of nothing) for feral and increases healing by x% with every cp

- removal of all no brain extra trinkets or make them atleast pre emptive - peels replace extra def cds and they will be effective due to extra breaks removal

- option for no cd dispel , 8 sec dispel or 2 charges of dispell

- make classes have unique kits and spells again , every class feels almost the same now

#4514955 Season 15, A new frontier?

Posted BalanceRexxar on 06 October 2015 - 06:00 AM

i miss the days of being able to watch jahmilli abn and shwayzee play enh arcane holy priest and WIN

i miss the days of watching sodapoppin do 1v3s against RETARDS

i miss watching thugonomix lob throbbing fat chaos bolts in peoples EYES

i miss unscripted PVP

i miss the days where the biggest problem of pvp was a goat fucking MAGES

i miss the days of qing into or with all of my friends who are GONE

i miss the days where i could que more than one comp and not lose to WODGODS

i miss the days where i could attack a druid or hunter for more than 3 seconds at a TIME

i miss the days where i could go into mitch jones stream and see him doing something other than run around DALARAN

i miss the days where i could watch cdews stream without watching him watch his own VODS

i miss the days where reckful would dance to the farmer SONG

i miss the days where durotar was full of LIFE

i miss the days where people would enjoy the GAME

i miss not MOP

i miss the WOW factor

i miss wow

#4502193 Lets talk regional games guis

Posted stalebagel on 17 September 2015 - 08:43 PM

Posted Image

#4502160 Lets talk regional games guis

Posted Infernion on 17 September 2015 - 08:27 PM

View PostNicholaes92, on 17 September 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

The dude use to make a shit ton of vids to help players learn arena back in the day I wasn't even from eu or play priest and I loved his shit.  

Swifty also used to/does make videos, does that make him the best warrior aswell?

#4500528 Lets talk regional games guis

Posted Hateformz on 16 September 2015 - 02:18 AM

View PostReliuna, on 15 September 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

This discussion is really funny and interesting, it's been interesting every season since 2007.

I really have no clue why people go to AJ to complain about comps/balance. You want to complain and you want things to change? Go to the official forums.

You hate a comp? Counter it or shut the fuck up and simply deal with it until patches makes your class a part of the FotM. Don't sit and whine on AJ.

WoW has been rock-paper-scissors since 2005, except one of them is always a little better.
ya aj is for posting pictures of ur balls and blogging about how much of a flamboyant faggot u are

#4491330 New Ret Paladin blog

Posted Hofflerand on 03 September 2015 - 02:03 AM

update: A lot of this is outdated now, but I made a new post about the datamined changes if anyone's interested.


A couple days ago I linked a video here with suggestions for Legion, but then deleted it. I found I'm not very good at voice-overs. Here's attempt #2: hoffahoff.blogspot.com

I wrote a few posts about baseline changes and soon I'll head into talents and glyphs. I'm taking a break from WoW soon so I don't burn myself out any further on Warlords. It feels good to get everything off my chest before then. Check out the blog if you enjoy this sort of thing, and feel free to respond here or there and I'll get back to you.

#4470710 Legion: How to Fix WW by Balance & Venruki

Posted BalanceRexxar on 08 August 2015 - 07:08 PM


Let me start off this post by thanking Venruki, his dedication towards the monk class is very inspiring and this post wouldn't be here without him.

The main purpose of this post isn't to tell a dev what to do. It's here to tell you guys - the reader's - what to complain about because changes in WoW aren't made by single complaints, if they see an issue being brought up enough times they will be more likely to make that change.

source post: http://us.battle.net...pic/18300188992


Now I know many of you have no intentions of reading all of this so I took the time to roughly explain this post in my stream and highlight it.


Glyphs: 0-3:27

Touch of Karma: 3:27-7:05

Damage: 7:49-26:32

Mobility: 26:32-32:34

TLDW: Changes I want to see going into Legion - 32:50-37:52


As for the textual post, since many of you are lazy like I am and don't want to watch, listen, or read - here are just a FEW of the many potential solutions that could be made to benefit our class so that it is designed properly.

Now, these changes will all make MUCH more sense if you actually read the post or watch the VoD explaining what is wrong so don't jump to any conclusions.

There are so many solutions to these problems you could go any direction and still accomplish the same goal. I'm not saying any of these solutions are the right ones, I'm simply giving a few of many possible solutions while explaining the major issue with these concepts.



Mobility: Windwalkers lost our glove bonus, Spinning Fire Blossom, and an easy way to cast our Fists of Fury, all have contributed to Windwalker's poor OFFENSIVE mobility, we can run away fairly easily but if someone is running from you - good luck catching them. Not to mention disable; the worst slow any melee has.

Solutions: Make a Glyph of Disable that removes the root but takes it off the GCD. Another option would to simply make it off the GCD without a glyph. Making Glyph of Freedom Roll baseline, or making it so when we roll through somebody it slows them similar to Flying Serpent Kick, or combining Disable into Jab. The solutions are endless, any would do.

Glyphs: Our old set bonus in MoP along with our glove set bonus were turned into glyphs when we already had 3 irreplaceable glyphs, this had a severe impact on WW monks mobility and ability to easily use FoF.

Solutions: Make Glyph of Touch of Karma baseline, possibly Touch of Death, possibly Freedom Roll, and depending on the change to Fists of Fury, possibly make that a 5 yard range baseline as well. There are so many solutions to this problem you could go any direction and still accomplish the same goal.


Touch of Karma: It can be removed lickity split by any paladin in arena by using Hand of Protection, a minor cooldown that completely negates our most valuable one. I don't believe this is intended or balanced in any way and it has been ignored for two expansions now.

Solutions: Don't make it physical, thereby making it so you cannot BoP it, or if you do BoP it, transfer the remaining absorption into a shield for the monk. Another solution could be making some glyph baseline and adding a glyph that makes it so ToK no longer does damage but instead is purely an absorb effect. There are countless solutions that could work, one just needs to be implemented.


Chi Explosion: Weak damage > Forced to take it because of our 4 set > Forced to use 4 set because of lack of passive defensives for Windwalkers > Forced to use it because of range because we are sacrificing mobility because of Chi Torpedo.

Solutions: Now there are many ways to approach fixing this, you can A. Increase it's damage (assuming you follow the other solutions for the other problems) B. Buff the other talents to increase their stack generation (for example: whenever you use hurricane strikes you gain X stacks of Tigereye Brew).


Chi Torpedo: Does too much damage and makes us sacrifice defensive and offensive mobility and is poorly designed.

Solutions: Take the damage out of Chi Torpedo and put it into something else like Rising Sun Kick or Chi Explosion (or Blackout Kick)


Fists of Fury: Is too hard to land and can easily be shut down resulting in massive damage loss.

Solutions: Give us a 5 yard CAST range, not the cone range that the glyph gives, allow us to be able to use it further away. Also reduce it's damage and increase damage in other abilities that won't get completely shut down because of a charge or a typhoon.


Storm, Earth, and Fire: The problem is that it gives a false sense of damage and pressure. Monks who do respectable damage in PvE don't do respectable damage in PvP, just because monks may seem like they are in a good place in PvE doesn't come close to show how they are doing in PvP as we have seen from the start of the expansion (top of PvE, bottom of PvP)

Solutions: Reduce the damage the clones do and increase damage in spells like Chi Explosion, Blackout Kick, and Rising Sun Kick.


Multistrike: It is poo poo garbage for PvP and monks have been designed around it. (Battle Trance and Tiger Strikes)

Solutions: Relocate these damage increasing passives and buffs into something that profits PvP as much as it does PvE. Or make it that multistrike works the same in PvP as PvE specifically for the WW class.



Now, if you are curious about any of these changes or need an explanation, I would highly recommend watching the stream highlight for a vocal and visual explanation, if not here is the text brought to you by Venruki with assistance from myself.

There's been many posts about WW Monks and some of the problems they face. I'd like to represent the class from a very unbiased standpoint and bring to your attention why they're so bad, and hopefully some relatively EASY ways to fix them. This is going to be a long post but I'd really appreciate your input and feedback.



The problem: Two absolutely necessary glyphs needed to PvP - Glyph of Touch of Karma and Glyph of Touch of Death. Without these glyphs these abilities feel INCREDIBLY jenky to use in PvP combat. Without the Glyph of TOK we'd struggle to use our main defensive cooldown unless we were within melee range of our target. Without the Glyph of TOD it's near impossible to land a target to 10% and have 3 chi left over before they're quickly brought up in HP.

This has been a huge problem this expansion for WW Monks. WW monks had two key PvP set bonuses removed transitioning into this expansion. The first is "Freedom Roll", this was a crucial part of our mobility kit and we can no longer afford to take it. The second being Glyph of Flying Fists, increasing the range on Fists of Fury from melee range to 5 yards.

WW monks need glyph slots opened up and these glyphs need to be added into the abilities baseline. I feel a change like this would have almost no negative impact on PvE and could possibly save the class in PvP.


Touch of Karma

The problem: Blessing of Protection removes my defensive ability, why? This was sort of a cool counter-play back in the day when holy paladins weren't running rampant. Unfortunately, now they are... and it's a little silly that a healer's minor defensive ability completely renders my main defensive 100% useless. Used to be a little scarier for a paladin to just BoP all of my Karmas because of 45 second forbearance, now it seems like it's worth it 9 times out of 10 and because of that my defensives on an already fragile class is at an all time low.

I'd like for mages and paladins to keep the ability to bubble/ice block ToK because the cost of using those abilities if high enough to justify removing my main defensive cooldown. However, BoP needs to not remove it anymore.

A Very common theme in arena is Holy Paladin/Mage, they can either bubble or iceblock it as well as being able to BoP it, so if I want the slightest chance of keeping my karma I can only use my defensive on one target with the minuscule chance my Karma won't be removed which it almost always does.



Where to begin on this large list of problems... How about we start with our basic abilities?

In PvP we are almost exclusively using Chi Explosion because it provides us with ranged damage and the ability to increase stack generation through its 3+ bonus.

Why is it exclusive? What's wrong with Hurricane Strike or Serenity? Well you see, monks have been notoriously known for being "squishy", but with a change to our 4 set which allows a 6% damage reduction per stack consumed for 20 seconds helped with that issue, but it created another one in the process.

Without Chi Explosion, we are squishy, we are squishy because without Chi Explosion, our stack regeneration is drastically reduced, and without stacks, we do less healing, and take more damage. Simple as that.

So what's the issue? What's wrong with Chi Explosion? Well it does doodoo damage.

Our 4 stack Chi Explosion, get this - we spend 90 energy, almost a FULL energy bar to do a BIG Chi Explosion! It still does less than 1 Chi Torpedo.

This brings us to Chi Torpedo, our MOBILITY spell that we are FORCED to use as a damage spell.

Our hardest hitting ability is our roll. This seems unintended or if it was it is a major design flaw and significantly cripples Windwalkers in PvP for these reasons:

1. Sacrificing "rolls" aka Chi Torpedoes - requires us to jump and roll, so that we don't go flying off of our target, but what if our target isn't right next to us? Targets do not stand still in PvP, therefore by making us use Chi Torpedo for damage, we don't get to use it for it's intended purpose - mobility.

2. Mobility is key to PvP both defensively and offensively, being able to reach our target to do damage is crucial for obvious reasons, and defensively for being able to roll to safer positions or to kite.

Now that I've explained a little bit about our damage and how it relates to mobility, let's talk about Fists of Fury.

In MoP, FoF did not require a target to use, in combination with our 2 set (increased range by 5 yards) this gave us the ability to use fists of fury at a longer range.

For example, this is what Fists of Fury looked like in Mists of Pandaria. Let each underscore represent 1 yard.

Me _ _ Target _ _ _

(this allowed my target to be in any of the 5 yards available to my Fists)

In Warlords this is what it looks like:

Me Target _ _ _ _ _

(assuming you have the glyph on which you don't 90% of the time so in reality it looks like this)

Me Target _

Now (even with the glyph) you MUST be in melee range, even if you have the glyph, it is still difficult to land - a lot of the time I find myself pressing W for a second, pressing fists of fury to test if I'm in range only to find out that I'm not even though I can use all my other melee abilities. And every time I test if I can finally get it off, I lose a little bit of distance standing still.

Now that I've address the underlying problem with Fists of Fury, I'll address it's concept. It's a CHANNELED spell. Transitioning from MoP to WoD, the percentage of damage we do in small windows was drastically transferred into our FoF, instead of FoF being a minor damage boost, it is crucial to get as much damage out of it as you can in PvP.

So why is this a problem? It's hard to land and it's channeled.

Melee shouldn't have to cast or channel to do their burst - it's not the melee design.

Even with the amount of CC that was removed in WoD, there is still plenty to disrupt this damage, some favorites that seem to push my buttons are typhoon, explosive trap, the Warrior's charge talent (Warbringer), all of these cancel our fists of fury effectively shutting us down.

And we're not done yet, we still need to talk about our favorite crutch - Storm, Earth, and Fire.

This ability was made for PvE and has no place in PvP whatsoever. If you try to use this ability in PvP (which you are kind of forced to do sometimes) you will find that it is extremely clunky and obviously not meant to be used in a PvP environment. But why not? Here's why:

Mobility: They don't have any, they just walk, any class you put it on can easily kite it, don't even bother using it unless your specced chi explosion because chances are it will be out of range when you use your RSK or Blackout Kick and it won't even copy it.

Damage: In PvP unless you are specifically trying to kill multiple people, it is bad to split targets. This only really makes it good for a comp like Windwalker Affliction warlock, but if you look at comps like WLS, MLS, RLS, all these comps involve the affliction lock doing the spread pressure with the assistance of the other DPS's single target damage to focus pressure on to one target. With WWLS, you end up with minor pressure on multiple targets leaving you vulnerable from a confident and offensive team laughing at your futile attempts to kill them.

So the solution? Hopefully in the next expansion this ability will be removed, but for now I think a simple change of reducing the damage of the clone to make the total damage increase of using SEF so that single target and AoE aren't so widely separated in how much damage they are doing because if you compare windwalker single target to windwalker AoE, the difference is ridiculous.

And finally, the simplest problem of all. Multistrike.

What a lot of people forget is that multistrike is HALVED in PvP. When you make a class revolve around something that is halved you can't expect similar success in both situations which are PvE and PvP. Battle Trance and Tiger Strike's are bad for PvP because multistrike is bad for PvP. The only solution to fix this would be to reduce or eliminate how much multistrike we get from Battle Trance and Tiger Strikes and relocate this damage into something else.



WW monks disable is the worst snare of any melee.

WW disable: On global cooldown (severely affects your damage rotation), 15 energy cost.

Rogue Crip Poison: Automatically applies on auto attacks. (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Warrior Hamstring: Off global cooldown (doesn't affect your damage rotation), 10 rage

Feral Infected Wounds: Applies off your attacks (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Ret Seal of Justice: Automatically applies on auto attacks. (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Enhance Frost Shock and Frostbrand: 25 yard range on shock and frost brand auto applies on auto attacks. (slightly affects your damage rotation)

DK Chillblains and Chains of Ice: Chains of Ice 30 yard range, costs a global and a rune. Chillblains is easy to keep up as it's a main part of your damage rotation to keep frost fever up. (slightly affects your damage rotation)

WW's are the only class that have to use an extra global to apply a snare to a target. I'm sure that doesn't seem like a big deal but in an ever evolving world of freedoms, power shifting, root breaks, snare breaks and much much more. Having to use the extra global to apply your snare makes us much easier to kite than other classes.

WW's also took a huge hit losing spinning fire blossom, one of our only ways to catch a target running in a straight line away from us. Essentially our ranged snared was removed and it made it that much easier to get away from us. Major issue with this is our uptime on many targets is limited to only stuns.

These issues in combination with freedom roll being taken away from creates a huge issue where WW's uptime is far lower than many other melee.

I just want to conclude this post by saying I love the WW class. The design of the class is amazing they just took an ENORMOUS hit in mobility, snares and damage which ultimately lead to one of, if not the worst class of the expansion. Please send help, SoS.

I had Balance (Steven) help me come up with and write this post.


And that, is the work of Venruki and I. Please feel free to comment on anything you agree or disagree with but keep in mind - these are not all the solutions we want, these are just possibly solutions because almost all of them are related to each other so whatever solution there is for one thing will change the solution for another.

#4457192 Retribution Fix Ideas @WoWForums

Posted Avengelyne on 21 July 2015 - 07:03 PM


Some people on EU and other regions don't read US forums, but read AJ so i'm posting the thread I spent all morning on here.

#4456427 Why he rage and hates me so much? :(

Posted Dizzeeyo on 20 July 2015 - 04:50 PM

View PostThazable, on 20 July 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Doesn't matter if arenas and arenajunkies lack activity, drama posts never die.
although the quality of the "drama" does change to match the quality of the overall game experience :)

#4454153 Faction specific gladiator?

Posted Hiddenstalke on 16 July 2015 - 01:00 PM

There are two very simple changes to this faction imbalance - Disable racials in rated environment or give free faction changes from alliance to horde for a period of time.
Best would be both at the same time.

#4447952 Idea for versa offpieces

Posted Creamo on 06 July 2015 - 05:26 AM

Why not use arena/rbg rating as a gate for versa offpieces on the vendor? You can even keep the stupid rng system to shut the casuals up, but let the people who care to push rating have something aside from transmog gear to look forward to?

I don't think wotlk system is the best way to gate this particular season, since not every spec/class has the same bis pieces... but for future seasons this might be a good way to go. Make shoulders the best piece like they used to be, and gate them at 2k. Everyone gets transmog gear at 2k anyway, but a bis piece would make more people (I know I'd give a fuck again) actually want to log on and que.

And you guys want people to log on and que right? Even if the super special ashran vendor is only 1800 required to unlock, it ought to make for a healthier game.

Just an idea, assuming Blizz still cares about us non-raider types.

Tell me how bad my idea is, how bad I am, how gay I am, etc.

#4451090 Season 17 Titles

Posted Divinitum on 11 July 2015 - 11:16 AM

Official Blizzard Quote:

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the video game designing, and I’ve been involved in numerous balancing changes in Warlords of Draenor, and I have over 3 million confirmed sub losses. I am trained in advanced PvP design and I’m the top player in Ashran. You are nothing to me but just another hater. I will wipe you the fuck out with my artifacted mage the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of rogues that will pickpocket all your artifacts when you're gearing alts so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your WoW subscription. You’re fucking done, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just half the things I've not yet hotfixed into the game. Not only am I extensively trained in developing, but I have the power to make Versatility items a 1% drop from the Ashran bosses and I will use it to its full extent to guarantee your excitement and fun for your miserable ass, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.