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Khhan

Member Since 17 Mar 2011
Offline Last Active Aug 11 2012 12:18 AM
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#3741741 GW2 esport viability

Posted ValorLotD on 10 August 2012 - 04:22 PM

tldr of my post: The OP doesn't have enough experience in GW2 and 90% of his remarks are unfounded due to inexperience.
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This thread has now made it to page 8 and so few things have yet to be discussed that probably would provide tons of insight, yet I will chime in from my experience.

Introduction:

GW2 can not be compared to WoW in its current form.  GW2 can not even be compared to any other MMO.  I say that because over the past 7 years of betas that I have played in, I have yet to see an MMO launch with as complete a SPvP, WvW, and PVE systems as GW2.

Reaction:
To address the concerns of the OP, I have to challenge that GW2 requires more time and practice than a few short weekends for a player to adequately at accomplish a level of skill that you find "hardcore".  You complain about reaction time and how things are too confusing, yet the more I played this game, the slower the combat became.  I learned the timing of when classes were more likely to use certain skills.  When a warrior was about to blow his spike on me, when a mesmer was about to try to blink away after losing X amount of health.  Have I played this game enough to be elite at these things? No, I've had as much time as anyone, but I evaluate where I was on day 1 and on the last day and I find that I've become better at reacting to what others are doing, even in big fights.  (Seems like most don't remember first learning PvP in WoW).

Teamwork:
OP's opinion on teamwork, well it is just wrong.  GW2 currently is less about direct damage and spiking and more about coordination, pressure damage and positioning.  I played my entire time while testing this game on a team.  We communicated and coordinated everything over voice.  We used a variety of builds and strategies and found what works.  It wasn't a collection of 5 people spamming attacks, but instead, debuffs, stuns, target calling, damage dealing, team preservation.  The teamwork is there, to be successful, it is essential.  Those who doubt this such as the OP, I would challenge you come release to attempt to roll against some of the coordinated teams who realized this and have planned around it.

Positioning:
I sadly am starting to feel like I am talking down to someone, but positioning can determine the results of a fight and can be used by the more skilled players to balance a fight when outnumbered.  If an Ele and a Warrior and a guardian are fighting against a 4 man team on a point, the ele takes some high ground and the warrior and guardian initiate in the middle, the ele is as close to invincible as he needs to be.  He can rain down damage and force the opposing team to run through all that damage before getting to the upper platform, at which point the ele can just hop down and run to another platform, all the while dealing damage.  Simply put, there are definitely front lines/mid lines/back lines in this game.  Utilizing the terrain can determine the outcome of fights.

Decision making:
I really wish I could go through the variety of reasons this is not a valid point on the OP's part.  Yes, I will admit that GW2 is more focused on dmg, which their development team admitted to.  That however does not mean there is risk vs reward in the utilization of skill.

Example: I am a warrior fighting another warrior.  I hold an axe/shield he a greatsword.  We are building our adrenaline and he pops a stun on me.  Greatswords are notorious for 100 blades (about 8k damage) which would at this point equate to around 40% of my hp.  So, I pop my endure pain and take no damage for 3 seconds and break his stun.  To this, I then switch to my hammer weapon and drop my knockdown on him and plink him a few times and as soon as he uses his stun breaker to get up, I bulls charge him to knock him down, then switch back to my axe and with full adrenaline and a crit sigil on my axe, I eviscerate him for max damage and he can't do a thing about it because he used his stun break and his stun already.  I chain off a few more skills and eventually take him down.

Now, fights are typically more complicated than that, but honestly... this game is not as simple as the OP seems to think.

#1 Rule of PvP: I really don't know what you are trying to say other than in GW2, a player with no skill can stop an experienced player.  That is just as ludicrous to say as it is to read.

Aspects of Watchability:  I will challenge again that with experience with GW2, you will learn what things are important to watch, and would be plainly obvious to someone with little to no experience with the game.

Battle of Kyhlo: Trebuche's.  With someone on that, it can and will change the outcome of a game.  Watching combat take place there, if that point is held, or the enemy Treb is destroyed, you will see a change in the tide of the game.  A solo capper on a point who kills an enemy only to have another enemy come and die as well, that could equate to 50-100 points +10 for the kills.  

Forest of Niffelheim:  If an enemy is killing one of the mobs and one of your team mates runs up, ganks him and k/s' the mob, that is a 30+ point swing, and allows your team to take the mob closer to you, creating a 60 point swing, just from a single kill.

Remnants of FoeFire:  I don't think I need to explain to anyone how this map has watchability as it is as close to GW1 arenas as any.  Killing the Guild Lord and the mobs, holding points, every death counts in this map and for every second your team is down 1-2 players, you are losing points.

Aspects of Watching/understanding:

You don't see people frozen, burning, stunned, knocked down?  Those are the reasons people die in this game.  Conditions currently rule the metagame and that is why this argument just baffles me.  Do you want to see a gigantic block of ice around someone when they are frozen?  How obvious does it need to be?  I challenge that as a person viewing the game, they will quite easily be able to tell when someone is frozen and gains a blue hue, and also moves at a vastly reduced speed.

What Matters in GW2:

I think this is going to be the point that detracts the most from your issues with GW2.  You complain that this game is too dilluted and that you want Kills and Deaths to matter more and simple mechanics like flag capping to be assigned.  To this, I must say "Ney, Sir".

GW2 SPVP is about points.  Every action you do, every choice you make, adds or takes away points in a match.  If you leave a point uncapped, if you don't kill the mob at respawn, if you feed deaths to the enemy team, if you are running around the map not accomplishing anything at all, you are affecting the team score.  GW2 SPvP is a complex system.  Kills give you some points and if a team dies 5 times each (25 deaths x 10 points= 250 points) that is half of a win.  But more likely, if you keep 2 points capped while keeping the third challenged, the other team is not gaining any points toward their total unless they are killing you.

This system is MORE dependent on skill/coordination/timing/teamwork than systems where you are just going 5v5 against each other in a bloodbath.

Your General Issues:

-Spells are key to what you are hoping to accomplish.  I use many spells FOR the secondary affect because it is actually what the skill was designed to do, they just happen to have some damage on them which is nice as well.
-Hardcore? This isn't an FPS game, nor has this game been on the market for almost a decade.  This is their first installment of SPVP and I hope from my post, you can see that it is much more challenging than you thought.
-Animations, sure.. I can give you that one.  I guess the only thing I can say is this game is new.
-Weapon swapping adds to tactics, not detracts from it.  A skilled player knows how to manage that cooldown.
-CC: It sounds like you want to be able to CC someone long enough to kill them before they can do anything.  There is actually more CC in this game than there is removals for it.  Again, you have to keep track of whether someone has already used their stun break or not.
-I don't know what your point is about multi-tasking.  Not every game is the same, that isn't a bad thing.  Elementalists have plenty of multi-tasking.... you know... with 4 attunements.  They heal, damage, cc.  Not sure what you want.
-Crisp/clunky spells and combat.  I think you are being far too critical of a game upon its launch.  You compare this game to WOW... which is older than some of the people playing it.  WoW wasn't perfect when it launched and they changed a lot.  GW2 takes some getting used to and does have a "slower" feel to it, but when you adjust to that and realize you aren't just spamming every ability, you start to see how timing and skill management make you a far better player.

Conclusion:

This game is obviously more complex than you realize or are willing to accept.  It requires teamwork on a different level.  Maybe you want more 1v1 1337ness so you can show off to your friends how you singlehandedly scored 20 kills and won a game.  I would challenge that even in games like LoL, as many should know by now, 20 kills doesn't win a game... and sometimes can cost you the win.  GW2 requires that you use your skill to work within the mechanics of the game to accomplish goals.  This becomes far more difficult as your competition's skill and teamwork rises.  Guild Wars 2 has the groundwork to become an esport supporting game.  They have in the works ladder rankings, spectator mode and the ability to create more forms of SPvP, just as they did with GW1.

I hope I have shown some light into the subject and I welcome questions, comments and any abusive remarks.


#3741826 Arenas in GW2?

Posted ValorLotD on 10 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

I think that if GW2 wanted to do what WoW does, it would fail.  A new game should only ever take principles of what past games have done, but use them to create their own game that is easily distinguishable from their competition.


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