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Member Since 05 Mar 2011
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#3849040 Balance is not the biggest problem, systems are

Posted Thaya on 14 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

Foreword: please read the entire post before commenting. I was a little bit too quick to post it, and as a result of adding ideas and thoughts to it, it's now a little hard to follow: I start with an example before explaining the main problem (inductive reasoning). All the important stuff is at the end.

Ever since WotLK ended, I've had the opinion that the problem of WoW PvP is not balance, but the systems. In fact, the things I'm going to talk about have always been in place, I just didn't notice them because I enjoyed random battlegrounds, skirmishes and 2v2 up until Cataclysm. I don't want to make this a nostalgia thread or a rant on bringing back skirmishes, but a few words have to be said about skirmish: reintroducing skirmish arenas, with the way the game has evolved since they were last active, would be a stupid decision. Back in WotLK individual skill was a much bigger factor than it is today - this is both due to developer decisions and players getting much better in these 4 years - arena is all about team synergy now, individual skill doesn't even fascinate anybody anymore. A single player just won't be able to make enough of a difference on his own to make it fun in the slightest, perhaps with the exception of one or two specs, and I'm not even going to talk about the obvious problem of team compositions and how predictable it will be. If they are reintroduced in the original implementation, people will play them for a short while, and then it will just be another dead area of the game.

Let's forget about the other PvP modes for now and focus only on arenas - it is a little game of its own, there's nothing that feels or plays quite like it, and it has a community of its own.

A huge problem with the arena system is that there is only one, ranked, mode. I believe it applies to everybody, or at least the vast majority, that you're not always in the mood to play serious, to play to win. And I believe every arena player has been in a situation where you wanted to try playing with some other people or your friends - just for fun - but couldn't due to being locked to their "serious" team. The real reason people want skirmishes back is because arena players simply don't have anything to do when they're not in the mood to play serious, or when their team mates are offline, or whatever other reasons not to play ranked. Ever noticed how many people buy Arena Pass just to be able to mess around without putting their live ratings in danger? it's always a very short sparkle of interest, because AP isn't really that good of a solution, but it's a good example of what people want.

And so, why not do the obvious thing, the thing that exists in several other super popular games?

Unranked mode.

Give it a a matchmaking system to match equal teams, but no ladder and no statistic tracking at all. No need for teams too, just let any party of 3 queue for it, even cross realm parties. Characters will still have MMR attached to them, and the average of that MMR will be used for the party - imagine it as if a temporary arena team is created. It just won't matter, it won't give rewards, it won't be displayed on the UI, the matchmaking system will extend its search range a lot quicker (aim for 2-3 min queues tops, even at the cost of equal matchups), and there will be no competition based around it. An organized skirmish, that's exactly what it should feel like.

Firstly, this will be a less serious environment to play in for the veterans, a polygon to run new teams or just play for fun, something you can queue any time of the day carelessly, something you don't have to commit to. And secondly, this would be a wonderful thing for new PvP players. It's just like the real thing, but without the pain of losing; I know people who tried arena, sucked due to being new, and never touched it again because they just kept losing. WoW arena has a very steep learning curve at least due to the amount of information you need to memorize and get used to before you really feel like you understand what's going on, being put straight into a competitive environment makes it that much harder; on top of that, gear is a much bigger factor than it's ever been, but let's discuss this another time.

Now, since I've touched the subject of new players... Let's go back to the real world where PvP isn't just arenas. The general consensus on AJ is "who cares about random BGs", but it is so much more important for the game overall than people think. Random BGs is the first place people unfamiliar with PvP go to, not only because of gear, but because it's the only type of PvP you can queue solo for. This is where they get their opinions about the PvP side of the game, and do you honestly think it's a good one if every second active poster here is botting, and some of you even actively support it? If I continue this subject I'll have to repeat myself a lot from an earlier thread about honor and battlegrounds, but key points were: the honor grind must be shortened A LOT, it's totally wrong that getting starter PvP gear takes so long; winning/losing shouldn't be as important as it is (random is random); and botting should be at least risky and more complex to use than it is today.

Another problem with the systems is how weird the matchmaking system is. Why do you sometimes not get a high rated team from your realm that you KNOW is queueing, and instead get 10 min queues into a team 700 rating below you? Why do you sometimes experience the opposite and get the same team 3-5 times in a row when you KNOW there's other teams queueing, and you even have to sit and wait for them to finish their game when they bump into somebody else? Why do battlegroups still exist even though it's been many years since it's possible for cross battlegroup matchups? all battlegroups do now is slow down queues for everybody and give out free rank 1 titles from 5v5 shares. Why does it take years to fix an exploit in the RBG MMR system, an exploit that people made thousands of euro on, and even humiliated Blizzard by making 5000 rated level 1 characters for the purpose of advertising? Why do RBGs have a much, much better effort:reward ratio in a game that's based entirely around character/gear progression? RBG is easier for the individual player and gives everything that arena does plus more (higher cap), that's wrong on so many levels. Imagine how all of this mess looks like to new players.

It is the oldest and ugliest system in the game by far, it's had so many things built on top of it and patched that it's just an archaic abomination.

There's so many great ideas out there. It doesn't even have to be unranked mode - that's just my take on it and an idea I haven't seen discussed before. Think about weekly challenges/tournaments with rewards - regular 100k gold tournaments would be intense. Introduce observing, at least in ghost mode like on a certain private server, but preferably more like the 5.2 Brawl (can keep it tournament-only). Introduce a best-of-3 mode for it, and allow it to be used in wargames.

Think about getting rid of end of season rewards completely. End of season rewards only promote cheating and boosting by now, and their value as an achievement of skill diminished to the point they're almost irrelevant. You could replace them with the aforementioned tournaments, or do other things like temporary per-season achievements that turn into FoS (f.ex. a new Arena Master per season, Flawless Victor, 2.2/2.4/2.7 per season). You know how fun it is for new players to get a RBG achievement every 100 rating they advance? Imagine if Arena had something similar, and you got Gladiator at say 2.5k, Duelist at 2.2, etc. And the seasons are really short so it doesn't get stale - you don't NEED TO introduce a new title and set of gear every single season.

Think about reintroducing 2v2 in some shape or form (f.ex. with a healing debuff, because right now healer/dps vs healer/dps is impossible), with rewards or achievements to it, especially something for the newer and less experienced players - 2v2 is actually one of the greatest and easiest ways to learn other classes as well as a great way to pass time when bored, it solves nearly every problem I mentioned here.

The way PvP works right now doesn't allow new players to enjoy the game. This is my entire point with this post. The biggest and most important reason that arena activity is dying is that old players are quitting, but no new players are picking up WoW PvP because it sucks to play with randoms and tank down to 1k rating on your first session. There is no "entry level" in WoW PvP, you're thrown straight into ranked 3v3 where you get crushed by people fully geared and most likely with years of experience because WoW PvP hasn't really attracted players for years. THIS is what needs fixing, and it's much more important than balance.

I'm not saying that balance is irrelevant, but no matter how good and balanced the game will be, it will never attract new players if the systems stay the way it is. There's a couple of very good changes in the patch - they fixed gear progression, which was the reason S12 had half the active teams compared to S11 (despite being a fresh expansion), and they also listened to our complaints about rating decay - we haven't even fully acknowledged how huge that change will be. Ultimately I'm making this thread in hopes to motivate them to work the PvP systems more, I imagine it's an easier task than balancing and is more useful at the same time.

Most of these won't even require too much developer work hours, and they won't affect PvE or other parts of the game. You can stick with temporary title rewards or gold and it'll be just fine for us, don't waste your precious developer time on tabards/mounts/pets. We just need a bit of your programmers work hours. Please make PvP fun again.

#3848122 The New Overpowered Healing class 5.2

Posted Absoqt on 12 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostShock1911, on 12 February 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

no priest is good because of the utility the class has now , like changing those glyphs into passive for disc. I haven't played much on the ptr but judging by what i saw from those 2k+ mmr matches on ptr , over 60% of the healers in those teams is priest.

Did you consider other factors for why priests are playing PTR 5.2, such as, I don't know, being unplayable 5.0 5.1?

#3845463 Totemic Restoration vs Psychic Scream

Posted dionim on 06 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

when im doing 3s as disc, i always remove fear from my bars when i see a enemy hpally

because sometimes i forget and go for a fear, 20seconds later my 2 partners are dead, the pally are on the other side of the arena casting denounce at me

when i first made priest, my wish was it to be a s12 pally, so i could participate more in kills and feel proud of wins with my skilled instant ccs that even if you trinket one, scrub i will use another one at you because im the best followed by another one and then i will say at the end of the game that im so fucking good at this game and me and my partners will laught until the queue pops again.

#3844212 I remember when

Posted Deeklol on 04 February 2013 - 04:29 AM

I remember when Regentlord was rank 1 as KFC

#3840904 Blanket CS change reverted!!! + more good stuff

Posted Structural on 26 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

so.... can't tunnel with unhealable damage = reroll?

#3838356 This isn't a problem at all.

Posted Pinka on 21 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

Moonkins flying past the Nerfradar.

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#3834131 thoughts on disc priests 5.2??

Posted Zunniyaki on 12 January 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostZunniyaki, on 06 January 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

-Bad glyph homogenization
At least - PS/Inner Focus need to be permanent - perhaps Penance since Priests Mobility is weak enough.

We are considering making the glyphs of Desperation and Inner Focus passive for Discipline.

View PostZunniyaki, on 06 January 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

-Lack of burst - Smite does the same dmg as mindspike at level 85 (around 8k)
Add mind spike or something similar that deals equivalent damage at lvl 90 as MS/MB did at lvl 85.

We did not buff PvP Power for healer damage as we did for DPS healing. However, we believe that Discipline specifically might need more damage.

They are listening bros.


Posted Theles on 22 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostFleinflex, on 22 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

If a class deserves to be OP afther only 4 months of beeing the underdog, then restodruids should 1 shot everyone with 1 moonfire afther cataclysm:DDDD

no you just shouldnt be even viable after tbc domination with that logic

#3823399 Gearing Difficulties on Alts

Posted Nadagast on 18 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

I made a post here about it: http://us.battle.net...opic/7415462574

Let me know if you guys agree or not.  Is there a better solution?

#3808895 Some 5.2 updated addons (AAV, SpellAlerter, Icicle, SpellLock, PAB, Interrupt...

Posted Draakex on 21 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

For those who are interested - i fixed some old addons for 5.2 and wrote small ones for myself:

AAV (Atrox Arena Viewer)
- records and plays arena-matches
(currently bugged when viewing matches with deathknights - freezes your wow)

PAB (Party Ability Bar)
- shows cooldowns of your party-members
(if you have the blizzard raidframes enabled, you need to set "Sort By:" to "Role" and mustn't select any role)

- shows Interrupt (can't differ cooldowns from real counterspell-interrupt or just blanket)

- like InterruptBar but able to show multiple cooldowns of the same interrupt-spell and only shows possible interrupts by the specific classes

- shows notifications on the screen if certain spells/buffs are casted

- tracks spell school lockouts on enemy player targets by you or members of your party

- shows a 5sec (+- delay-time) timer for the exact time of when you drop out of combat

- colors the background of the unitframes by class

- shows stopwatch when focus active and counts the interrupt-cooldowns (plays "click"-sound when ready)

- shows enemy cooldowns over the NamePlates

- disables the leave-confirmation when leaving arena

If any of the links are not working for you or you need mirrors, just tell me and i'll upload it elsewhere.

If you have any other wishes for addons, you need to be fixed for the current patch, please let me know and i'll try.

+rep would be very appreciated

If you notice any .lua-Errors please let me know (and make screenshots of them, so it's easier to find the error-source).

#3822000 Shockwave

Posted khuna on 16 December 2012 - 12:37 AM

nerf pls, this spell is over the top


#3818918 Shadowpriests

Posted Chazzwozzer on 11 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

View Postsaffie, on 11 December 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

There are so many shadow priests in this thread defending their class and acting like they are fine.

Sure you are fine, if other classes had the same kind of utilities that you did, you would be fine. Relative to other casters apart from mages you are far superior. Almost every team you meet in arena these days have a warrior/mage or sp in them.

If utility doesn't make a class op, only one shot damage does then lets give SP's ice block, shield wall, cyclone as well... Almost all of the warlocks posting on AJ knew how op demo was and wanted it to be changed, and eventually glad that it got fixed, that was also because playing demo was not fun, but so many SP's here defending their class when they are clearly in a much better spot than any other class out there apart from warrior and mage. Try not to be so biased about your class please it makes a horrible arguement.

But you are right about one thing SP's dont need a nerf, other classes need a buff that can enable them to compete with the support of an SP. But also MD has to be about 45 second cd if you are shadow, thats about it.

This comment that other classes should have the same utility as shadow priests is such a tired argument.  Why would anyone want there to be less class individuality in the game.  You even go on later in the post and describe in a sarcastic manner that we should give spriests other class identifying abilities (which would obviously be a bad thing). If other classes should have the same utility as spriests, then give spriests a port cooldown and spammable cc like locks have.  

It is true that most comps do have a warrior or mage in them - they have about 14% and 10.5% representation respectively.  But spriests are no where near as common (about 6.3%).  If you add all warlock spec representation above 2200, they in fact have higher representation than spriests (6.5%).  These stats are pulled from worldofgraphs.com - I do not know if they are 100% accurate, but they do seem similar to what I see on the ladder myself.

You're applying a blanket statement that everyone defending shadow priests is defending their spec based on class bias, however there are a number of posters that play different classes that also don't think that spriests are overpowered (myself included).  

If anything, it appears that you are suffering from class bias.  Yes I agree that shadow priests are in a better spot than warlocks, and yes they are the second best caster spec in the game.  But what are the alternatives?  Elemental is basically nonviable as a pvp spec, and boomkin has insane damage during cooldowns but is otherwise pretty weak.  So because shadow is better than two non viable specs and warlocks (first season I've been playing that locks haven't been amazing btw), then shadow must be overpowered? As an aside, I played both a spriest and warlock last expansion, and warlocks were clearly the better class (as I understand it, warlocks have been better than spriests in basically every season except the current one).  Yet I did not come posting that warlocks were overpowered just because it was the better spec.  

There are reasons that spriests have defensive utility at their disposal.  They don't have spammable cc like some other casters have, and they don't have the ability to kite like other casters.  Not every caster is the same, and nor should they be.  What makes this game interesting is the differences between the classes, and I do not understand why posters want to take away the tools that give spriests their identity.  And I am not saying that spriests are necessarily immune to needing nerfs.  If flash heal was still as strong as it was before 5.1, then it would be too good.  But as of right now, I don't really see it as a problem.

#3816656 WoW MOP PvP independent Survey for Community

Posted Gsgsgsgsgs on 06 December 2012 - 10:57 PM


#3816220 Arena representation

Posted Phillol on 06 December 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostCtuhlu, on 05 December 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

My assumptions are based on the fact that the traditionally "fringe" specs (Moonkin, Ele, Enhance, Arcane, Fire, Ret) HAVE had representation in certain seasons but it has pretty much always been as part of a wizard or melee cleave. They just don't have the tools that Warriors, Frost Mages, Warlocks, Rogues of pre-S12 have -- so they need to fill up these holes in their toolset by partnering with the specs that don't have the same problem.

If you enforce M/C/H I think these specs and probably every hybrid aside from Shadow Priests would largely disappear from competitive arena. I never said that one grandmaster MCH comp would surface -- that's ridiculous. People play a wide variety of classes so just because RLS might be the best MCH in our hypothetical scenario, it wouldn't mean mages disappear because a lot of good players play mages and they would be fine running RMP or WMP or whathaveyou. But to me MCH would totally fuck with comp diversity. What would a ret paladin run under that system? Ret/Moonkin/Healer? No, it would HAVE to be Ret/Warlock or Ret/Mage (and even those would be shit). A ret paladin would not benefit from partnering with the third or fourth caster on the depth chart -- they would naturally gravitate toward the best casters. This has historically been mages and warlocks, and that's why I think enforcing MCH would have a negative impact on this game's fun factor for about 50% of the games classes. And to be honest WoW arena can't afford to lose any more fun factor at this point.

just stop and go back to GW2

#3812509 There is no gope

Posted Allfinete on 28 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 28 November 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

It's not a bug, it is intended, confirmed. Coincidentally they forgot to mention it.

Actual notes are like this:
-Pet hp nerfed.
-Pet fear cast time nerfed.
-Pet can be feared by Holy palas.
-Can't use spectral guise when cc'd.
-Focused Will is back.

tl:dr : Get fucked more.

Jamal van der Weegen@Nyphador
@Ghostcrawler There has been alot of confusion regarding Spectral Guise. It's not useable while cc'ed anymore since 5.1, bug or intended?

Greg Street@Ghostcrawler

@Nyphador Intended. Sorry that we failed to patch note it. We will update the notes.

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