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DjandawgMember Since 05 Mar 2011
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Posted Oliaxz on 28 February 2013 - 08:14 AM
1. Giving any sort of instant CC to ranged class that are not stuns/disorient/root.
2. Giving more than 2 gap closer abilities to melee.
3. Giving more than 2 escape abilities to ranged, especially when that class has a lot of CCs (ex: mage with blazing speed + blink in 5.2... i feel like this is the wrong way to adress their "cant kite for shit when being trained" issue, combining molten + frost armor would have made much more sense, probably better and certainly more consistent).
4. Giving blanket silence to melee (except garrote i guess).
5. Giving undispellable "cant be snared" abilities to melee.
Then once they get those down they need to make stand still hard cast better than instant spam or move while casting spells (at the very least make it so you need to do 1 stand still hard cast to land a kill). And once hard cast is good again and mobility is somewhat balanced for every class, then you can put interrupts back on 10s for melee and fake casting will be worth doing once again. Also mind numbing is retarded and so is the non dr rng para stun. They should remove cloak and dagger, put crippling back at 70% and make it root people when u shiv.
Posted Hackattack3 on 25 February 2013 - 03:34 PM
You guys are honestly worst than the crowd of nerds that are probably still playing Everquest. The game has NEVER BEEN BALANCED. Either you can use that to your advantage, which none of you have, or you can keep not understanding it and whine about it. Facts: hunters have ALWAYS HAD MORE BINDS, even more than Affliction back in the day, and Hunters have had the worst design throughout the entire game.
Honestly, how can you even say any different? This is well-documented fact backed up by statistics, patch notes - all gathered over more than half a decade. Tons of pro players - meaning players with way more ability and accolades than anyone who says to the contrary - say Hunters should be freewin. Shadowplay in S9 was unbeatable as any Hunter team unless they sucked. Even Azael and Snutz said they got outplayed and shouldn't have lost the game.
You guys are just bad players with no real concept of balance or anything. You just think you're good so you think your opinion is the right one. Guess what? You're not good. You were never good, ever. This game is dead and anyone who says otherwise is either making an absurd amount of money from being one of the last e-famous people left, or someone like you guys who probably bought your account and thought to yourself:
"the horoscopes were right.. this really is my year. Time to finally get access to ArenaJunkies. Best $800 I ever spent. God, I've waited 8 years for this.."
Speaking of nostalgia,
Dumb post showing zero understanding or grasp of the evolution of hunters over the past few expansions. If you were to say hunters took the most skill and were the hardest to play in tbc/wotlk I would absolutely agree with you. I know they had flashes of OP with beastcleave, ATC, and survival in s5 but at the tail end of wotlk they fell over to spell cleaves.
What made hunters difficult to play in tbc/wotlk was that they were poorly designed and had terrible mechanics. Resources issues, (mana lol, aspect of viper? poor focus regen) they were squishy (no damage reduction ability, high stam as defense, healer soak), and they had difficult/clunky cc to get off. How were these problems addressed?
Resource issues - tons of focus regen abilities from thrill of the hunt to pvp set bonuses makes getting up steady/cobra shots and player oriented regening less important
Squishy - aspect of ironhawk (15%), roar of sac (crit immunity), all of BMs cc outs, and 1min Deter + readiness
Difficult/clunky cc - trap launcher, INSTANT pet stun, they even upgraded the monkey's 0.5 sec cast. All specs silencing shot.
I would argue that no other class has had their pvp issues addressed better since wotlk than hunters. It is no longer accurate to say that hunter is the most difficult dps class to play since all of the major issues with class design were fixed.
Posted affix on 21 February 2013 - 10:09 PM
There's a concept I think of as "cooldown commitment" when it comes to dealing damage that I think is really important to recognize. Most burst sequences require that you blow a lot of cooldowns before the damage ever arrives. Warrior's have to blow Avatar/Reck/Trinket/Skull Banner/etc. to swifty people. Rogues have to blow shadow blades + dance. Mages on live have to blow trinket+orb+deep freeze+icy veins+alter time. This is the standard damage model for burst.
In 5.2, Mage cooldown commitment for our biggest burst is quite low. We can turtle until Incanter's Ward is fully absorbed (very easy to guarantee), nova or frostjaw someone, and our only serious cooldown we have to commit for max burst is a damage trinket before our first Frostbolt. If you want to be conservative, your first Frostbolt doesn't really need to have trinket popped, you can just cast it and trinket+icy veins afterwards. Once that frostbolt is in the air, then you can decide to commit to the burst attempt depending on what defensives were used in response to the impending frostbolt. Either you use none, and you baited their cooldowns for nothing, or tons, and you blow people up with pom+alter time+deep freeze frostbolt shatters.
We actually don't have a spare GCD in our 'standard' 5.2 burst sequence to use things like Frozen Orb. That can be saved for in between bursts to build up procs and increase our sustained damage. You can risk telegraphing your burst by using it before the first frostbolt, but it's not usually a good call.
The standard burst model is still fairly difficult for most players to deal with, as few of them require incorruptible casts. This results in a lot of forum QQ because the average player can't tell when huge burst is coming based on subtle instant cast CDs, but is fairly easy to figure out if you're paying attention to the right stuff (Did that Mage use alter time with FoF/BF up? Did that Warrior use Avatar+Reck or just Reck? Did that Rogue dance with shadow blades up?). The 5.2 Mage model has the opposite problem: very little cooldown commitment, but interruptible. The result is that we can try, over and over again, to set up game ending burst, and the first time it isn't recognized and prevented, the cooldown barrage follows and you die without being able to control your character.
These kinds of subtleties aren't usually discussed on these forums and this is probably better suited for its own topic, but 5.2 is going to give a lot of people grief because whereas right now, Mage burst is a game ending threat vs. well geared players every 1.5-3 minutes, on PTR right now we're ALWAYS a threat as long as we save our important burst cooldowns for the times when our small cooldown commitment damage combinations are still enough to guarantee a kill when appropriately followed by uncounterable burst.
One could argue that this is the upside of opening up your defensive tree to interrupts, and that there's going to be times now when we get blown up with no ability to react because we committed our Frost tree to a kill attempt, but I'm not sure that's a big enough disadvantage with interrupts being a shorter duration now than they have been in the past when Mages casted (interrupts used to be as long as 10 seconds).
Food for thought!
edit: The more I think about this problem, the more I see the 'frostbolt does better damage than instants' model maybe only making sense in an environment where melee don't have too-high uptime, and healers actually have to cast. But right now, instants STILL need to be very high, or else every game becomes "train the mage" with guaranteed success. Frostbolt as an ideal spell to cast, and instant casts less threatening than they are now, may be a design that has to wait for 6.0. I'm worried for how they'll adjust the class in light of Frostbolt's buffs, there's no clear path towards an effective class that is neither too strong nor too weak at high levels of play, with Frostbolt staying how it is right now.
Posted Seu on 20 February 2013 - 11:15 PM
in most scenarios in wotlk you could play well to shut other teams burst down, or avoid cc. it just felt like you could actually do things in general because mechanics were more demanding for most classes.
you cant really make big plays anymore in mop and being able to do good damage isnt impressive either - any idiot can pump out insane damage and sick cc because its so simplified. its why people stopped making arena videos... there was just nothing impressive/worth showing when you went through your clips at the end of the day.
if you think wrath 3v3 was centered 100% around pumping damage like mop is, then i doubt you played the game at a high level at the time.
Posted Starcookie on 20 January 2013 - 12:31 AM
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Posted Gurren on 03 November 2009 - 10:04 AM
Posted Thaya on 14 February 2013 - 04:33 PM
Ever since WotLK ended, I've had the opinion that the problem of WoW PvP is not balance, but the systems. In fact, the things I'm going to talk about have always been in place, I just didn't notice them because I enjoyed random battlegrounds, skirmishes and 2v2 up until Cataclysm. I don't want to make this a nostalgia thread or a rant on bringing back skirmishes, but a few words have to be said about skirmish: reintroducing skirmish arenas, with the way the game has evolved since they were last active, would be a stupid decision. Back in WotLK individual skill was a much bigger factor than it is today - this is both due to developer decisions and players getting much better in these 4 years - arena is all about team synergy now, individual skill doesn't even fascinate anybody anymore. A single player just won't be able to make enough of a difference on his own to make it fun in the slightest, perhaps with the exception of one or two specs, and I'm not even going to talk about the obvious problem of team compositions and how predictable it will be. If they are reintroduced in the original implementation, people will play them for a short while, and then it will just be another dead area of the game.
Let's forget about the other PvP modes for now and focus only on arenas - it is a little game of its own, there's nothing that feels or plays quite like it, and it has a community of its own.
A huge problem with the arena system is that there is only one, ranked, mode. I believe it applies to everybody, or at least the vast majority, that you're not always in the mood to play serious, to play to win. And I believe every arena player has been in a situation where you wanted to try playing with some other people or your friends - just for fun - but couldn't due to being locked to their "serious" team. The real reason people want skirmishes back is because arena players simply don't have anything to do when they're not in the mood to play serious, or when their team mates are offline, or whatever other reasons not to play ranked. Ever noticed how many people buy Arena Pass just to be able to mess around without putting their live ratings in danger? it's always a very short sparkle of interest, because AP isn't really that good of a solution, but it's a good example of what people want.
And so, why not do the obvious thing, the thing that exists in several other super popular games?
Give it a a matchmaking system to match equal teams, but no ladder and no statistic tracking at all. No need for teams too, just let any party of 3 queue for it, even cross realm parties. Characters will still have MMR attached to them, and the average of that MMR will be used for the party - imagine it as if a temporary arena team is created. It just won't matter, it won't give rewards, it won't be displayed on the UI, the matchmaking system will extend its search range a lot quicker (aim for 2-3 min queues tops, even at the cost of equal matchups), and there will be no competition based around it. An organized skirmish, that's exactly what it should feel like.
Firstly, this will be a less serious environment to play in for the veterans, a polygon to run new teams or just play for fun, something you can queue any time of the day carelessly, something you don't have to commit to. And secondly, this would be a wonderful thing for new PvP players. It's just like the real thing, but without the pain of losing; I know people who tried arena, sucked due to being new, and never touched it again because they just kept losing. WoW arena has a very steep learning curve at least due to the amount of information you need to memorize and get used to before you really feel like you understand what's going on, being put straight into a competitive environment makes it that much harder; on top of that, gear is a much bigger factor than it's ever been, but let's discuss this another time.
Now, since I've touched the subject of new players... Let's go back to the real world where PvP isn't just arenas. The general consensus on AJ is "who cares about random BGs", but it is so much more important for the game overall than people think. Random BGs is the first place people unfamiliar with PvP go to, not only because of gear, but because it's the only type of PvP you can queue solo for. This is where they get their opinions about the PvP side of the game, and do you honestly think it's a good one if every second active poster here is botting, and some of you even actively support it? If I continue this subject I'll have to repeat myself a lot from an earlier thread about honor and battlegrounds, but key points were: the honor grind must be shortened A LOT, it's totally wrong that getting starter PvP gear takes so long; winning/losing shouldn't be as important as it is (random is random); and botting should be at least risky and more complex to use than it is today.
Another problem with the systems is how weird the matchmaking system is. Why do you sometimes not get a high rated team from your realm that you KNOW is queueing, and instead get 10 min queues into a team 700 rating below you? Why do you sometimes experience the opposite and get the same team 3-5 times in a row when you KNOW there's other teams queueing, and you even have to sit and wait for them to finish their game when they bump into somebody else? Why do battlegroups still exist even though it's been many years since it's possible for cross battlegroup matchups? all battlegroups do now is slow down queues for everybody and give out free rank 1 titles from 5v5 shares. Why does it take years to fix an exploit in the RBG MMR system, an exploit that people made thousands of euro on, and even humiliated Blizzard by making 5000 rated level 1 characters for the purpose of advertising? Why do RBGs have a much, much better effort:reward ratio in a game that's based entirely around character/gear progression? RBG is easier for the individual player and gives everything that arena does plus more (higher cap), that's wrong on so many levels. Imagine how all of this mess looks like to new players.
It is the oldest and ugliest system in the game by far, it's had so many things built on top of it and patched that it's just an archaic abomination.
There's so many great ideas out there. It doesn't even have to be unranked mode - that's just my take on it and an idea I haven't seen discussed before. Think about weekly challenges/tournaments with rewards - regular 100k gold tournaments would be intense. Introduce observing, at least in ghost mode like on a certain private server, but preferably more like the 5.2 Brawl (can keep it tournament-only). Introduce a best-of-3 mode for it, and allow it to be used in wargames.
Think about getting rid of end of season rewards completely. End of season rewards only promote cheating and boosting by now, and their value as an achievement of skill diminished to the point they're almost irrelevant. You could replace them with the aforementioned tournaments, or do other things like temporary per-season achievements that turn into FoS (f.ex. a new Arena Master per season, Flawless Victor, 2.2/2.4/2.7 per season). You know how fun it is for new players to get a RBG achievement every 100 rating they advance? Imagine if Arena had something similar, and you got Gladiator at say 2.5k, Duelist at 2.2, etc. And the seasons are really short so it doesn't get stale - you don't NEED TO introduce a new title and set of gear every single season.
Think about reintroducing 2v2 in some shape or form (f.ex. with a healing debuff, because right now healer/dps vs healer/dps is impossible), with rewards or achievements to it, especially something for the newer and less experienced players - 2v2 is actually one of the greatest and easiest ways to learn other classes as well as a great way to pass time when bored, it solves nearly every problem I mentioned here.
The way PvP works right now doesn't allow new players to enjoy the game. This is my entire point with this post. The biggest and most important reason that arena activity is dying is that old players are quitting, but no new players are picking up WoW PvP because it sucks to play with randoms and tank down to 1k rating on your first session. There is no "entry level" in WoW PvP, you're thrown straight into ranked 3v3 where you get crushed by people fully geared and most likely with years of experience because WoW PvP hasn't really attracted players for years. THIS is what needs fixing, and it's much more important than balance.
I'm not saying that balance is irrelevant, but no matter how good and balanced the game will be, it will never attract new players if the systems stay the way it is. There's a couple of very good changes in the patch - they fixed gear progression, which was the reason S12 had half the active teams compared to S11 (despite being a fresh expansion), and they also listened to our complaints about rating decay - we haven't even fully acknowledged how huge that change will be. Ultimately I'm making this thread in hopes to motivate them to work the PvP systems more, I imagine it's an easier task than balancing and is more useful at the same time.
Most of these won't even require too much developer work hours, and they won't affect PvE or other parts of the game. You can stick with temporary title rewards or gold and it'll be just fine for us, don't waste your precious developer time on tabards/mounts/pets. We just need a bit of your programmers work hours. Please make PvP fun again.
Posted Absoqt on 12 February 2013 - 07:04 PM
Did you consider other factors for why priests are playing PTR 5.2, such as, I don't know, being unplayable 5.0 5.1?
Posted dionim on 06 February 2013 - 09:59 AM
because sometimes i forget and go for a fear, 20seconds later my 2 partners are dead, the pally are on the other side of the arena casting denounce at me
when i first made priest, my wish was it to be a s12 pally, so i could participate more in kills and feel proud of wins with my skilled instant ccs that even if you trinket one, scrub i will use another one at you because im the best followed by another one and then i will say at the end of the game that im so fucking good at this game and me and my partners will laught until the queue pops again.
Posted Deeklol on 04 February 2013 - 04:29 AM
Posted Structural on 26 January 2013 - 04:25 PM
Posted Pinka on 21 January 2013 - 01:19 AM
Posted Zunniyaki on 12 January 2013 - 11:53 AM
At least - PS/Inner Focus need to be permanent - perhaps Penance since Priests Mobility is weak enough.
We are considering making the glyphs of Desperation and Inner Focus passive for Discipline.
Add mind spike or something similar that deals equivalent damage at lvl 90 as MS/MB did at lvl 85.
We did not buff PvP Power for healer damage as we did for DPS healing. However, we believe that Discipline specifically might need more damage.
They are listening bros.
Posted Theles on 22 December 2012 - 05:36 PM