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#41 PerfectHair

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 04:21 PM

I came back to this game and I see prot pallies healing.  FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML FML

#42 Kcolraw

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 04:26 PM

Levidian said:

Before we get this underway understand one thing. I do think the BM tree needs revamped and I'm definitely not convinced the current and or nerfed version of the tree is anywhere near as cool or complex or developed as the tree can and should be. With that said we're going to explore the new BWrath change and how it's going to affect the "go to" spec when we don't feel like dying inside the first stun that lands (ala MM).

Knee jerking blizzard development. They only tap the hammer when RMP is threatened.

Yea that's a troll bait section title deal with it. It's obvious to anyone that follows wow evolution that the new change has to do with 2 rather specific things. There is a comp that has a high success rate vs RMP and it involves a hunter.

RMP while having much of it's success related strictly to the awesome synergy and support the 3 classes provide each other it also seems to be an almost protected species in regards to blizzard development. That's fine I guess as it's been a long standing pinnacle of arena PvP and they do occasionally put it in check when it gets too retarded but we're still seeing tournaments with 80% RMP so.... you draw your own conclusions.

Now that I'm done ranting lets talk about BM.

The BM spec revolves around one thing, hoping you kill someone or force enough cool downs that your weak ass utterly crippled (w.o BWrath) spec can finish someone off after you calm down. When you're fighting top notch teams that know how to combat enrage with disarms/los/defensive CD rotations etc they can normally out last the entire 18 seconds of bestial wrath and we know this is true because we've seen it happen likely in practice and as a stream viewer.

One thing to understand about the new change is that for those 10 seconds a BM hunter will be doing everything they did before WITH a bonus 10% damage. You'll be getting hit harder than you ever did before and you'll have to deal with it in the same ways you did before.

Here is where one of many problems lie however... The 10 second duration and the FACT that a BM hunter is the WORST most ineffective arena spec in the game when the hunter/pet aren't enraged. All the specs eggs are largely in one basket and if you aren't able to take advantage of that IE forcing that ice block or forcing that pain suppression/BOP, etc you're going to likely lose the fight during the counter offensive that happens when you're no longer able to keep up that oppressive offensive damage.

A Disarm/Dismantle during BWrath now will leave the hunter with a mere 5 seconds of total wrath action to try and get something accomplished. This isn't going to fly and anyone that knows anything about how the spec operates in the arena however face roll it may be will completely die off as an arena spec. Ming seems optimistic that the comp will still be good and of course he will say that as this change benefits the rogue class as much if not more than any other class in the arena scene.

In other words congratulations blizzard your change does nothing except wipe the spec off the arena radar. We're now going to be forced MM or SV (which is fine if they're tuned correctly).

Levidia what should have happened to bestial Wrath?

Well, since you asked I guess I'll weigh in. What SHOULD have happened is the tree should have been revamped a long time ago to raise its complexity but since that didn't happen will have to tinker with what we have available.

Bestial Wrath is both an offensive and defensive ability as it can be used to up offensive pressure or used defensively to allow freedom of movement and CC immunity to allow the hunter to LOS and or kite melee.

The simplest change I could think of that would both accomplish some goals while making the spec a little less 1 trick pony would be halving the duration of BWrath and also halving the cool down.

What this would essentially do is allow the hunter more opportunities to utilize Wrath but also make them less punishing each time it's used. A 9 second duration Wrath would allow things like Disarm/Dismantle to significantly punish the up time and defensive abilities such as IB,DS,Pain Sup,BOP etc would be able to ride out the duration if the caster/team deemed it necessary to do so.

There would be more of a push and pull relationship with BM hunters and their opponents and there would be more opportunities for offensive switching and or defensive Wrath use. A hunter would utilize the ability to push and if that push failed to produce a kill the hunter would be on the defensive until he was able to try the target again or try another target w/o having to wait a minute to do so. The ability would work in the same way other abilities work in regards to dictating switches etc. Ret's switching on hammer timer, or rogues switching on KS timer etc.

Here is the break down of the proposed change.

Bwrath 1 minute base CD.
Glyph changed to - 10 seconds
60 seconds X . 3 = 42 second duration - 10 seconds = 32 second CD 9 second duration fully talented/glyphed.

The catch....

The catch to this is that blizzards 10% full time damage augment was stuck on there to boost BM in PvE to help it catch up to the other trees. How are we going to accomplish this design goal when the CD/Duration is just being cut in half?

Blizzards ret changes inspired this portion of the corrected changes and I think we could adapt that style of design to boost BMs damage in PvE w/o totally slaughtering the PvP side of the situation.

My solution would be to add a stacking damage vulnerability (physical based) to a BM pets attacks that has a 1 second hidden CD and stacks 5X @ 2% damage each time totaling 10%. This would be applied to the hunters damage or the pets damage whatever is deemed most appropriate. This would force the hunters pet to engage a target for at least 5 seconds before it/or the hunter got the full damage modification. I'll leave naming the debuff to someone else but it would work on the idea (lol inc role playing) that a hunter and or his pet would become stronger against a target when they're cooperating with each other and attacking together.

Summation of total suggested changes.

Bwrath reduced to 1 minute CD (from 2 minutes)
Bwrath duration reduced to 9 seconds (from 1[IMG]http://gza.gameriot.com/http://gza.gameriot.com/core/default//smiley_cool.gif[/IMG]
Bwrath glyph reduced to 10 second CD reduction (from 20)

Hunter pets stack a 5/5 debuff when they attack (with any source) that has a 1 second hidden CD and stacks from a 1/5 2% damage modifier to a 5/5 10% damage modifier applied to the hunter.

Goals accomplished:
-PvE damage modified person blizzard design goals with a weakened aspect to PvP where the benefit would not be instantly received.

-Bwraths 18 second oppressive was cut down to a more manageable time allowing defensive cool downs to be more effective against it.

-BM while still face roll has more decisions to make in regards to how it will use Bwrath due to increased opportunities during a match despite the decreased duration.(Defensive to survive a switch or offensive to pressure for a kill, etc)

Have a good day everyone.

you might make a lot of retarded calls in previous times and we have our differences

but good post and agree
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#43 Oomlock

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 04:30 PM

have you ever thought about getting any of your books published?

nientonsoh said:

its fun being gay :D

Rabidhobo said:

sometimes i rub the chapstick on my dick and pretend im getting a blowjob from a slug

#44 Levidian

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 04:45 PM

Oomlock said:

have you ever thought about getting any of your books published?

:rolleyes:
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#45 Zephron

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:40 PM

he is teh prozor brah
:hunter: skill level brah>all classes

Yes said:

Hunters are like PoM Pyro mages --- except for them PoM is on a 10 second cooldown.

#46 Smeagoul

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 10:31 PM

Prozor actually means 'window' on Croatian ;p

#47 Tammyaway

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 07:11 AM

12shadow12 said:

What ever happened to trap launcher?
Why doesn't blizzard just implement for 3.2.2?
It would solve all of my problems
I hate using freezing arrow and the healer moves and its a waste of a trap
Or blizzard needs to make Scatter shot trainable, like a 2 sec Scatter Shot and if you talent it, it becomes a 4 second or something

A 2 second scatter will not enable you to trap any better.

#48 Ragingsteer

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 07:18 AM

Levidian said:

That's fine I guess as it's been a long standing pinnacle of arena PvP and they do occasionally put it in check when it gets too retarded but we're still seeing tournaments with 80% RMP so.... you draw your own conclusions.

Has there been a tournament since arenas came out where RMP wasn't a major contender?  I don't think it's ever been put in check.
wtb D3

#49 Gunnolf

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 07:20 AM

It was put in check by wld and rld in s2 gear.

Hunter drain teams to an extent had it beat as well.
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#50 fant0m8

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 02:01 AM

Levidian said:

Plops I read our post(s), entertaining and hilariously truthful at the same time.

Yea, good post.

Too bad GC spends all his time on the WoW forums, so he's been trolled by idiots so much that he just bans everyone in sight these days.

I would post suggestions to improve the Hunter class, but he's just ban me for disagreeing with his image of how WoW works.

denialz said:

mages have never been godmode~

RMP.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#51 Elraen

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:05 AM

Quote

Knee jerking blizzard development. They only tap the hammer when RMP is threatened.

Yea that's a troll bait section title deal with it. It's obvious to anyone that follows wow evolution that the new change has to do with 2 rather specific things. There is a comp that has a high success rate vs RMP and it involves a hunter.

RMP while having much of it's success related strictly to the awesome synergy and support the 3 classes provide each other it also seems to be an almost protected species in regards to blizzard development. That's fine I guess as it's been a long standing pinnacle of arena PvP and they do occasionally put it in check when it gets too retarded but we're still seeing tournaments with 80% RMP so.... you draw your own conclusions.

I've said this very same thing for a long time now, but then the RMP fanbois just hop aboard the flame train.

I'll repost what I said in the MLG Dallas thread not long after that tourney ended...

For too long, the only "legitimate" measure of 3v3 "skill" has been how good your RMP is versus other RMPs. This created an entire subculture of teams who can literally only play RMP-they play it well, but really-how *good* are you at the game if you can only do ONE thing really well. It would be like a pro NFL team who literally only ran one play EVERY SINGLE DOWN. They may run that play really well, but eventually, people are going to catch on and learn how to counter that play-the counter to the play may be something REALLY REALLY easy-but whose fault is it that they had to create an easy counter-play in the first place?

I've said it before and I'll say it again-until they break up RMP synergy to the point where it's almost non-viable:

-all we're going to see at tourneys is RMP/RMP-counters. That's stupid

and

-Blizzard will never have a good excuse to take the time to properly balance mages (and 3s in general). Right now, mages are solely balanced around RMP. RMP has to remain viable or mages won't have a very viable 3s comp. This means breaking up a lot of the rogue/mage synergy. If you break up RMP, this allows for the devs to do some interesting things with mages that will allow them to be more viable in a variety of comps. Priests and rogues are fine right now with other classes-we see them participate in any number of other comps-but mages only exist in RMP 3s.

Call beastcleaves/melee cleaves/etc. baddies all you want-they're the ones walking home with the cash and prizes. They're the smart ones. If SK, HON, etc. were smart, they'd spend more time learning some counter comps to all these XXXX-cleaves that exist. They can't really get any better at RMP-if they would diversify their playbooks, they'd be the ones walking home with the money, not teams like emg/x6.


Blizzard has set into motion this vicious circle where:

-frost mages gained too much control, allowing them to screw over melee

-then melee got really good mobility to be able to deal with all of that control

-now casters are allowed to hold on to such huge burst to be able to deal with melee

Very often, the devs simply overcompensate or just refuse to address the *root* of various problems, and instead just put in band-aid fixes that just later end up creating more problems.
-Aëon, the hunter formerly known as Elraen
-Formerly Sïn


"And rmp is fine it isn't even that amazing"

-Gladiator Mage

#52 Mearis

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:35 PM

Parmesan said:

It funny Levida that people call you bias and w/e.  I think your one of the few people on this forum that actually posts constructive changes.  Most are just like Afflix and want his or her class to be godmode at all times.

this is my new sig honestly - after levidia suggests a 30% BM uptime people compliment him on how unbiased he is

#53 Haya

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:11 PM

Mearis said:

this is my new sig honestly - after levidia suggests a 30% BM uptime people compliment him on how unbiased he is
funny and smart at once
paar weizen wegatmen

#54 Trikso

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:14 PM

fant0m8 said:

32-35 second cooldown w/ 9 second duration is a little short (CD wise) for my tastes. That's only 20-25 second windows that a BM Hunter is snare-able.

I think a 30-35 *downtime* window is more fair. That or a 20-25 second downtime window and a 4-6 second duration (immune to disarm if this happens).

I think it would be much more fun to be BM if you had a 5 second duration TBW and a much shorter cooldown. You could use it in the same manner that other specs use their signature shots, for short burst windows.

You mean having TBW kinda like Explosive Shot? :)
Dunno if that would be fun, having freedom(and all other effects) like every 20 seconds, for a few secs, cuz that would make it totally spammable off every CD, instead of having it work like Killing Spree, which Blizzard wants.
2.7k nonglad Warrior commenting on RMP

View PostTezhu, on 14 March 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

overpowered

warrior reporting in

there are so many bad players at high ratings right now because they got a skill boost with 4.0.6 x.X

#55 Elraen

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:56 PM

Mearis said:

this is my new sig honestly - after levidia suggests a 30% BM uptime people compliment him on how unbiased he is

Putting things like that in your sig can now get you an infraction.  I suggest you change it.
-Aëon, the hunter formerly known as Elraen
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"And rmp is fine it isn't even that amazing"

-Gladiator Mage

#56 Levidian

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:58 PM

Mearis said:

this is my new sig honestly - after levidia suggests a 30% BM uptime people compliment him on how unbiased he is

Missing the point.
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#57 Mearis

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:29 PM

Levidian said:

Missing the point.

you want a class to be immune to CC nearly 30% of the time, and to have a pvp trinket every 30 seconds.

I realize you write for a particular audience but do you even have a remote understanding of the implications of your ideas?

#58 Levidian

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:39 PM

Mearis said:

you want a class to be immune to CC nearly 30% of the time, and to have a pvp trinket every 30 seconds.

I realize you write for a particular audience but do you even have a remote understanding of the implications of your ideas?

Where did I say anything about a PVP trinket. The new "pvp trinket" version of blizzards change was not part of my suggestion.

The change would make a BM hunter more easily countered while smoothing out the periods of good/bad that a BM hunter goes through between the times of wrath being up/down.
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#59 Arkonis

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:45 PM

Levidia is suggesting the hunter equivalent of making Shadowstep baseline for Rogues.

Sure it would be good for the class and all but it would be fucking retarded.

#60 Levidian

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:16 PM

Arkonis said:

Levidia is suggesting the hunter equivalent of making Shadowstep baseline for Rogues.

Sure it would be good for the class and all but it would be fucking retarded.

Um what?

What you said makes exactly NO sense.
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