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BM change response (blog) - What do you think?


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#1 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:56 PM

Before we get this underway understand one thing. I do think the BM tree needs revamped and I'm definitely not convinced the current and or nerfed version of the tree is anywhere near as cool or complex or developed as the tree can and should be. With that said we're going to explore the new BWrath change and how it's going to affect the "go to" spec when we don't feel like dying inside the first stun that lands (ala MM).

Knee jerking blizzard development. They only tap the hammer when RMP is threatened.

Yea that's a troll bait section title deal with it. It's obvious to anyone that follows wow evolution that the new change has to do with 2 rather specific things. There is a comp that has a high success rate vs RMP and it involves a hunter.

RMP while having much of it's success related strictly to the awesome synergy and support the 3 classes provide each other it also seems to be an almost protected species in regards to blizzard development. That's fine I guess as it's been a long standing pinnacle of arena PvP and they do occasionally put it in check when it gets too retarded but we're still seeing tournaments with 80% RMP so.... you draw your own conclusions.

Now that I'm done ranting lets talk about BM.

The BM spec revolves around one thing, hoping you kill someone or force enough cool downs that your weak ass utterly crippled (w.o BWrath) spec can finish someone off after you calm down. When you're fighting top notch teams that know how to combat enrage with disarms/los/defensive CD rotations etc they can normally out last the entire 18 seconds of bestial wrath and we know this is true because we've seen it happen likely in practice and as a stream viewer.

One thing to understand about the new change is that for those 10 seconds a BM hunter will be doing everything they did before WITH a bonus 10% damage. You'll be getting hit harder than you ever did before and you'll have to deal with it in the same ways you did before.

Here is where one of many problems lie however... The 10 second duration and the FACT that a BM hunter is the WORST most ineffective arena spec in the game when the hunter/pet aren't enraged. All the specs eggs are largely in one basket and if you aren't able to take advantage of that IE forcing that ice block or forcing that pain suppression/BOP, etc you're going to likely lose the fight during the counter offensive that happens when you're no longer able to keep up that oppressive offensive damage.

A Disarm/Dismantle during BWrath now will leave the hunter with a mere 5 seconds of total wrath action to try and get something accomplished. This isn't going to fly and anyone that knows anything about how the spec operates in the arena however face roll it may be will completely die off as an arena spec. Ming seems optimistic that the comp will still be good and of course he will say that as this change benefits the rogue class as much if not more than any other class in the arena scene.

In other words congratulations blizzard your change does nothing except wipe the spec off the arena radar. We're now going to be forced MM or SV (which is fine if they're tuned correctly).

Levidia what should have happened to bestial Wrath?

Well, since you asked I guess I'll weigh in. What SHOULD have happened is the tree should have been revamped a long time ago to raise its complexity but since that didn't happen will have to tinker with what we have available.

Bestial Wrath is both an offensive and defensive ability as it can be used to up offensive pressure or used defensively to allow freedom of movement and CC immunity to allow the hunter to LOS and or kite melee.

The simplest change I could think of that would both accomplish some goals while making the spec a little less 1 trick pony would be halving the duration of BWrath and also halving the cool down.

What this would essentially do is allow the hunter more opportunities to utilize Wrath but also make them less punishing each time it's used. A 9 second duration Wrath would allow things like Disarm/Dismantle to significantly punish the up time and defensive abilities such as IB,DS,Pain Sup,BOP etc would be able to ride out the duration if the caster/team deemed it necessary to do so.

There would be more of a push and pull relationship with BM hunters and their opponents and there would be more opportunities for offensive switching and or defensive Wrath use. A hunter would utilize the ability to push and if that push failed to produce a kill the hunter would be on the defensive until he was able to try the target again or try another target w/o having to wait a minute to do so. The ability would work in the same way other abilities work in regards to dictating switches etc. Ret's switching on hammer timer, or rogues switching on KS timer etc.

Here is the break down of the proposed change.

Bwrath 1 minute base CD.
Glyph changed to - 10 seconds
60 seconds X . 3 = 42 second duration - 10 seconds = 32 second CD 9 second duration fully talented/glyphed.

The catch....

The catch to this is that blizzards 10% full time damage augment was stuck on there to boost BM in PvE to help it catch up to the other trees. How are we going to accomplish this design goal when the CD/Duration is just being cut in half?

Blizzards ret changes inspired this portion of the corrected changes and I think we could adapt that style of design to boost BMs damage in PvE w/o totally slaughtering the PvP side of the situation.

My solution would be to add a stacking damage vulnerability (physical based) to a BM pets attacks that has a 1 second hidden CD and stacks 5X @ 2% damage each time totaling 10%. This would be applied to the hunters damage or the pets damage whatever is deemed most appropriate. This would force the hunters pet to engage a target for at least 5 seconds before it/or the hunter got the full damage modification. I'll leave naming the debuff to someone else but it would work on the idea (lol inc role playing) that a hunter and or his pet would become stronger against a target when they're cooperating with each other and attacking together.

Summation of total suggested changes.

Bwrath reduced to 1 minute CD (from 2 minutes)
Bwrath duration reduced to 9 seconds (from 1[IMG]http://gza.gameriot.com/http://gza.gameriot.com/core/default//smiley_cool.gif[/IMG]
Bwrath glyph reduced to 10 second CD reduction (from 20)

Hunter pets stack a 5/5 debuff when they attack (with any source) that has a 1 second hidden CD and stacks from a 1/5 2% damage modifier to a 5/5 10% damage modifier applied to the hunter.

Goals accomplished:
-PvE damage modified person blizzard design goals with a weakened aspect to PvP where the benefit would not be instantly received.

-Bwraths 18 second oppressive was cut down to a more manageable time allowing defensive cool downs to be more effective against it.

-BM while still face roll has more decisions to make in regards to how it will use Bwrath due to increased opportunities during a match despite the decreased duration.(Defensive to survive a switch or offensive to pressure for a kill, etc)

Have a good day everyone.
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#2 Trikso

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:01 PM

Basically Blizz wants BW to be something like a killing spree, a CD you pop when you have a good chance of killing someone, not something you pop as soon as the gates open.
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View PostTezhu, on 14 March 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

overpowered

warrior reporting in

there are so many bad players at high ratings right now because they got a skill boost with 4.0.6 x.X

#3 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:05 PM

Trikso said:

Basically Blizz wants BW to be something like a killing spree, a CD you pop when you have a good chance of killing someone, not something you pop as soon as the gates open.

My changes still has that goal in mind. The problem is until you use it you're the worst spec in the game and you're either going to be forced to use it when you're attacked or forced to use it to try to up your offensive pressure based on your team getting forced defensive.

Having BM more available allows you to utilize it to switch/force a CD etc more often while accomplishing the design goal of eliminating how long the offensive pressure is initially if you burn it off the bat.
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#4 Xaeroflex

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:08 PM

/facepalm @ Blizzard.

Damnit Lev, why aren't you the hunter class dev yet?

#5 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:17 PM

Xaeroflex said:

/facepalm @ Blizzard.

Damnit Lev, why aren't you the hunter class dev yet?

I've never filled out an application.
They don't have an opening.
I don't have previous game design experience (from an employment standpoint)
Any design positions would have a shit ton of applicants.

I could do it obviously and I'm sure I would do it well but that doesn't mean anything in regards to actually holding a position.
So, I'll keep blogging as long as I'm playing this game and trying to get on the beta tests (which is about as close as a player can get to being a dev, we actually got a TON of shit done during the wotlk beta in regards to helping the class evolve and catch up)
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#6 Dagin

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:21 PM

Levidian said:

I've never filled out an application.
They don't have an opening.
I don't have previous game design experience (from an employment standpoint)
Any design positions would have a shit ton of applicants.

I could do it obviously and I'm sure I would do it well but that doesn't mean anything in regards to actually holding a position.
So, I'll keep blogging as long as I'm playing this game and trying to get on the beta tests (which is about as close as a player can get to being a dev, we actually got a TON of shit done during the wotlk beta in regards to helping the class evolve and catch up)

The bold part neither does GC from what I read :rolleyes:. He was a biologist or something.
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#7 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:26 PM

Dagin said:

The bold part neither does GC from what I read :rolleyes:. He was a biologist or something.

Yea of the marine variety IIRC.

One thing that has both positives and negatives about being a designer focused on a specific class is I personally think you should play that class A LOT as your main and have an intimate knowledge of the class from a first hand standpoint. The down sides is you may have some bias towards that class BUT at the same time as long as decisions are round tabled the other members of the class design team are there to call you out when bias might be getting in the way of intelligent design.  The positives far outweigh any negatives and it's why is wish there was someone that could play a hunter play it well and that we could have some back and fourth with inside blizzard.
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#8 Mythic

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:43 PM

Jesus, levidia nails it spot-on once more

#9 Parmesan

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:43 PM

It funny Levida that people call you bias and w/e.  I think your one of the few people on this forum that actually posts constructive changes.  Most are just like Afflix and want his or her class to be godmode at all times.

#10 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:47 PM

Parmesan said:

It funny Levida that people call you bias and w/e.  I think your one of the few people on this forum that actually posts constructive changes.  Most are just like Afflix and want his or her class to be godmode at all times.

Thanks man, there is always going to be some bias even if it's on the subconscious level but I try my best to make suggestions that take as much into consideration as possible and always try to accomplish multiples goals while keeping many factors in mind including.

Balance
Lore(RP)
Smoothness of play
Class/Spec complexity
Indirect impact
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#11 Trikso

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:53 PM

Levidian said:

Thanks man, there is always going to be some bias even if it's on the subconscious level but I try my best to make suggestions that take as much into consideration as possible and always try to accomplish multiples goals while keeping many factors in mind including.

Balance
Lore(RP)
Smoothness of play
Class/Spec complexity
Indirect impact

What people and Blizzard fail to notice, is the fact that we have constructive debates on Hunter forums, opposed to stuff like BUFF MY DAMAGE BY 20% CUZ MY CLASS IS WEAK/QQ THEY NERFED MY FACEROLLSPEC on other forums.
When we want to "buff"(read : change) something, we propose, many different ideas while we keep the impact on the game in mind. We consider a lot of factors and even propose nerfs/changes on our other abilities so we can get balanced properly.
Thanks that you are one of the few who step out of the forum debate and invest their time into typing such a huge wall of constructive text. Keep up the good work.
2.7k nonglad Warrior commenting on RMP

View PostTezhu, on 14 March 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

overpowered

warrior reporting in

there are so many bad players at high ratings right now because they got a skill boost with 4.0.6 x.X

#12 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:57 PM

Trikso said:

What people and Blizzard fail to notice, is the fact that we have constructive debates on Hunter forums, opposed to stuff like BUFF MY DAMAGE BY 20% CUZ MY CLASS IS WEAK/QQ THEY NERFED MY FACEROLLSPEC on other forums.
When we want to "buff"(read : change) something, we propose, many different ideas while we keep the impact on the game in mind. We consider a lot of factors and even propose nerfs/changes on our other abilities so we can get balanced properly.
Thanks that you are one of the few who step out of the forum debate and invest their time into typing such a huge wall of constructive text. Keep up the good work.

Yea and what I like about the hunter community is someone WILL call me out if something I type is retarded and usually someone will find a way to tweek a suggestion to make it even better.

My main goal what I type shit out like that is to make people AWARE of the problem and offer a suggestion that could be used to help remedy the situation. There is always more than one way to accomplish a design goal I just want to offer something that would be a good starting point to brainstorm a potential change. What I offer might be perfect initially or it might need a few tweeks to or even an overhaul before it would actually work, but as long as the situation is out there and people/blizzard REALIZE what is going on they can act on it.(hopefully)
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#13 Riezel

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 03:32 PM

I'll go with the blizzard sucks comment
"That is not a drug. It’s a leaf."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger

been pwning newbs since nineteenninetynine

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#14 Flarebrass

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:07 PM

Levidian said:

Here is the break down of the proposed change.

Bwrath 1 minute base CD.
Glyph changed to - 10 seconds
60 seconds X . 3 = 42 second duration - 10 seconds = 32 second CD 9 second duration fully talented/glyphed.

Doesn't the glyph work first then the percent reduction talent? So that would be (60-10)*0.7 = 35 sec. At least that's the way the Water Elemental Glyph/talents work.

#15 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:15 PM

Flarebrass said:

Doesn't the glyph work first then the percent reduction talent? So that would be (60-10)*0.7 = 35 sec. At least that's the way the Water Elemental Glyph/talents work.

I don't know off the top of my head TBH. Either way is close enough.
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#16 rookiie

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:40 PM

I remember in the start of WOTLK when i read about 40 posts from rogues that were like : "we suck in pve, we deserve to be OP in pvp"

and mages: "so what if we one shot stuff? rets DK's and rogues just use immunities and rape us its ridiculous, remove the magic resistance shit"

Then hunters in s5: " please blizz remove viper sting its over the top to drain so much mana while doing nice dmg, we understand u, TNT needs to be removed! explosive shot needs to be nerfed.

And even in s6 when hunters went bk to their usual pathetic state of last in arena they were sitting there eating shit still fighting in arena with mouths shut. I heard more complaints from other classes asking for hunter buffs than from hunters themselves.

Every viable/dominating/decent comp has 1 of the 10 classes in it
RLS: dont even get me started on this
RMP: no introductions needed
Cleave:....cleave

Where r hunters? after going BM they r in the cleave department.

Ppl arent used to hunters being in the 'viable' or 'dominant' department
so they all went emo when a hunter won MLG with an enh shaman, even tho we all know how fast any team with an enh shaman can kill something.

And Levidian ur posts are always amazing if only they trusted a person like u to balance not only hunters but pvp in general i think we would enjoy it more.

#17 12shadow12

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:29 PM

I don't really see the BM nerf as bad as everyone else does.
VS team w/o a disarm, its barely a nerf.
All they need to do now is give BW immunity to disarm and it will be fine.

#18 Levidian

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:47 PM

12shadow12 said:

I don't really see the BM nerf as bad as everyone else does.
VS team w/o a disarm, its barely a nerf.
All they need to do now is give BW immunity to disarm and it will be fine.

How many teams don't have a rogue or warrior?
How many of those teams aren't wizard cleave?

It will have a pretty significant impact.

I don't really think it needs disarm immunity. The ability having counters is fine, The ability being as countered as it will be post nerf is pretty significant though.

With disarm and dismantle both being 1 min CDs they'll be able to shut down every Bwrath for 50% of the duration.
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#19 Tokki

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 07:41 PM

Levidian said:

How many teams don't have a rogue or warrior?
How many of those teams aren't wizard cleave?

It will have a pretty significant impact.

I don't really think it needs disarm immunity. The ability having counters is fine, The ability being as countered as it will be post nerf is pretty significant though.

With disarm and dismantle both being 1 min CDs they'll be able to shut down every Bwrath for 50% of the duration.

Ya but even without BW up I still do significant constant damage while kiting. BW still will server its purpose vs PMR (break up opener on hunter) but the increased damage will make it easier to pressure the priest if they aren't on the hunter.

PS I always like reading Levidia's ideas :<

#20 Huggerz

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 08:23 PM

Semi-mixed feelings towards this.

On the one hand, it's a shame that instead of reworking the BM tree into something respectable, blizzard approaches this with the question, "How can we neuter beastcleave?"

On the other hand, with the spec's current state, I admittedly would be happier to not see any BM hunters in arena :/.




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