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Regarding Patch 2.2 and the BoF and BoSac nerfs.


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#1 Ryushi

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:15 PM

Apart from how harsh these nerfs were implemented, I was wondering what your opinions where on this change, do you think Blizzard answered the call of the cry babies on the forums? Or do you think that they chose to nerf these specific abilities to try and get away from the idea that you can't Arena without a Holy Pally in 2v2/3v3? I mean, if you look at the majority of teams these days. It's all Holy Pallies.

I'll admit; I raid as Retribution.. But I wouldn't dare use it in Arena. As Holy just proves too powerful.. Unless you can find a very capable Shaman healer. Which just isn't an option for me, at the moment. None the less, from 16 second BoF, with a 4 second inbetween, to 14 second BoF, 11 seconds inbetween. It's going to make it much easier for Warriors to be kited. No longer will you just have to toss up BoF and keep reblessing it while your Warrior attempts to whack away at a Frost Mage.

That being said, even with the nerfs do you think it will kill Paladin/Warrior "EZ" mode? Or do you think it's just another nerf to our "OP" class?
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#2 Nn

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 03:15 PM

It was never Warrior/Paladin "EZ" mode, if you ask me. Druid/Warlock, Paladin/Warlock destroy that combo. The nerf is going to hurt, but we'll find away around it.
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#3 Neb

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:11 PM

The freedom nerf doesn't bother me since it's pretty warranted but the sacrifice nerf is a little extreme. It needed a cooldown; no question about that. I just see a problem of the bubble becoming a "CC-breaker" than anything else. I already use it in 3v3 almost exclusively to not be CCed or CSed (The average lock/warrior/pally team can massacre my druid teammate in the 6 seconds of CS, not to mention even a 2 second fear is a useful interrupt) and in 5v5 when I can't afford to get CSed (4 dps teams or when something goes wrong). The only saving grace I had vs CC like sap, blind, and poly was sacrifice. I'd just hate to see the bubble which the pally class is basically balanced around becoming just a thing to break a CC.

I'm actually quite suprised I haven't seen more of an uproar in the pally forums. Going from no cooldown to one minute while the blessing only lasts 30 seconds is a huge change in gameplay (for me atleast). I think the problem is a lot of pallies (or atleast the ones on the pally forums) underestimate how extremely good sacrifice is. Being "immune" to three CC is quite nice, but I mostly used it for DoT teams in 5v5. Stealing 103 dmg of a 350 DoT tick is damn nice. Not that I can't still do that, but I usually have BoS on our shammy in the beginning so I don't get sapped/poly'd since he usually takes the focus. If they're a dot team I'll have to wait the 1 min to throw BoS on our warrior (since they always go for him :? ).
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#4 Eve

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:25 PM

Neb I think you're spot on about the forums. I think a lot of paladins just really don't realise how good sacrifice is.

I'm upset about the cooldown, I think a minute is very extreme. 20 seconds, MAYBE 30 sure...but a minute? No...just...no.
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#5 Rhaegyn

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:33 PM

I'm also surprised about how little uproar there is about BoS. Freedom needed a small nerf, but BoS was overdone. Should be 30 seconds, 45 seconds tops.
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#6 Krona

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:03 PM

Also in agreeance that the freedom nerfed was slightly needed and won't be a huge deal either way.
This will hurt the paladin more in 1v1 against hunters than anything really.

The sacrifice nerf does hurt. But you have to think of it from a non paladin healer perspective, the shaman can do nothing when CC'd, same for the priest. Druids of course are immune to a few by keeping up abloish posion/can shape out of poly.

Previously a paladin in a large fight, where you can't easily coordinate a purge/sheep to remove blessing of sac left them pretty much unstoppable. Sure you could still easily interupt alot of heals, but the point being you still had to focus to do so, vs just a CC and forget was pretty powerful for the paladin.

I dont like this change vs rogues that can hide for a while in 2v2 etc. Letting them outlast the duration of sacrifice. But in combat I feel this change is very fair.
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#7 Rhaegyn

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:05 PM

Priests can shadow word death when they see sheeps coming, shamans have grounding totem. Maybe they should have made it a shorter duration and shorter cooldown to keep it in line with these.
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#8 Laila

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 11:06 PM

I think rather than fix warriors they're just going to nerf everything that teams particularly well with them until it's just warrior + whatever every game, and call it balanced.
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#9 Ayas

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 01:00 AM

Warrior/Healer are the only viable warrior 2v2 combos you can have. Warrior pally being the best,followed by druid and shaman partners, followed by priests.

Warrior/Priest is a very hard combo to work through since warriors cannot stop dps on the priest outside of intercepts and mace stuns (which if its warrior pally, you'd just feed the other warrior rage). You are open to melee teams, and CC. Warrior/Priest destroys Pally/Warlock, but outside of that they lose to just about everything else.

Warrior/Shaman is open to CC, a double frost mage, warlock/sp, mage/lock, mage/priest all pretty much destroy that team.

Warrior/Druid works well against a lot of combos, but they are also open to CC, but have more lasting power since druids are hard to kill. Warrior/Pally teams destroy that team as well.

Basically Warrior/Pally is the only really workable combo, it can beat just about any team with a lot less weaknesses. An un CCable healer, BoF, JoJ, and 12 secs of full power healing without fear of CS are all huge compared to what other partners you can have.

Pallys are the only non CC'able healer for the most part. Grounding and SWD all have CDs, and druids lack any sort of dispel that helps warriors.
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#10 Nex

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 01:33 PM

This is a huge nerf, and I'm also a bit baffled why there aren't any more complaints about it.

The standard paladin+warrior synergy will get hit by it, but it will have an even bigger effect on retribution paladins, and it's not like we're good off to begin with.
Repentance is the only way currently to catch runners, only 20 yards range but it's the only thing we got. Since it also doubles as a spell interrupt it's usually counter productive to use it to catch a running healer as you won't make any lasting impression once you catch up anyways. With a nerf to BoF you'll need to catch up more often, and repentence as it is just won't cut it.

I can't see how i can keep my rating up if the changes go through as they are. It's a blow to the nuts for a spec that already is bad off and need all the tricks it got. The warrior+paladin synergy will also be reduced, although intercept and a spammable snare which can't be dispelled will mean the nerf has a smaller effect there.


My guess is the nerf is a artefact from early season one arenas before other healers stacked up on enough resilience to survive well, and when teams based around paladin+warrior were at the top of all ladders. Lately 2v2 and 3v3 has been taken over by priests, and druids are going really strong as well.
The nerf seems to be targetting paladin+warrior teams, who since then have lost ground to other setups, and it has a side effect to heavily reduce the effectiveness of the currently weakest spec in the game (retribution paladins).
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#11 Ryushi

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 01:56 PM

My guess is the nerf is a artefact from early season one arenas before other healers stacked up on enough resilience to survive well, and when teams based around paladin+warrior were at the top of all ladders. Lately 2v2 and 3v3 has been taken over by priests, and druids are going really strong as well.
The nerf seems to be targetting paladin+warrior teams, who since then have lost ground to other setups, and it has a side effect to heavily reduce the effectiveness of the currently weakest spec in the game (retribution paladins).


I have to agree. The reason being, is Blizzard seem really slow in catching up with the "news" so to speak. Take a look at the next expansion, Siege weapons and destructable buildings? Haven't they been telling us they'd introduce them to the game since the release of Alterac Valley? My point is, Blizzard doesn't keep up to date with it's player base, they usually just scan the forums, and if enough people whine about it; it'll get nerfed. Another thing is, Blizzard feels Rogues and Druids are underperforming in Arena. They were. Back in Season 1 before Druids or Rogues picked up pvp gear. Nowadays they're a very viable opponent.

Also, I have to agree that it would seem that they're turning Divine Shield into our "counter" to CC. Look on the brightside; At least it'll come with an increased chance to resist Mass Dispel in 2.2.
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#12 TurranMC

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 05:59 AM

This is a huge nerf, and I'm also a bit baffled why there aren't any more complaints about it.

I was suprised there wasn't more outrage as well. Honestly for awhile I thought this was a ridiculous nerf that Blizzard would realize before it hit live, but 2.2 is close to releasing now and its still there. The Freedom nerf is understandable I guess, but the Sacrifice nerf will crush Paladins in 2v2 and 3v3. I don't think it deserves any cooldown since its such a crucial ability, but a 15 second one can be dealt with if Blizzard really does feel Paladins are overpowered. A whole minute cooldown though? Thats just outrageous.
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#13 Innate

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:55 AM

Pretty much in agreeance the BoF nerf was reasonable, but the BoSac one was overboard. I'm curious to see how it effects my current 5s team, since we run a 2 healer matrix but with a druid instead of a priest. I'm worried my lack of dispel will gimp our team since it will be so much easier to chain sheeps and fears on a paladin... and we don't even have a shaman for tremor. I really think at most it should be on a 30 second cooldown, and even that seems harsh. If they do go through with the nerf they should at least make it unpurgable, as I honestly don't see paladins being viable outside of 5v5 (with a few exceptions), and even see their slots on 5v5 teams being comprimised.
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#14 Bouwmeester

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:01 PM

If you guys think this nerf is going to hurt paladin viability you got another thing comin. You know why paladins are not complaining? Because our nerf aint shit compared to what warlocks and shadow priests are getting. 10% damage reduction on dots is pretty significant.
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#15 TurranMC

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:37 AM

If you guys think this nerf is going to hurt paladin viability you got another thing comin. You know why paladins are not complaining? Because our nerf aint shit compared to what warlocks and shadow priests are getting. 10% damage reduction on dots is pretty significant.

Actually most Paladins aren't complaining because they are retarded. The good Paladins make threads and it quickly gets so few posts it disappear quickly. The rest of them are just too lazy to even speak up.

But you do bring up a good point. Honestly I'm waiting to see what happens. Though this change is a -HUGE- nerf, but there are a lot of buffs as well. The nerf will still be incredible though. What I'm wondering is, will it crush Paladins in the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket, or will it just make it much much harder to excel. I'm hoping its the latter.
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#16 Demonized

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 08:08 AM

So, pretty much it's gonna be lock/druid, mage/rogue at the top next season.
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#17 Bouwmeester

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 08:09 AM

Or, the good paladins don't care because they will be able to win post patch just as easily as before?
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#18 TurranMC

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 12:35 AM

Or, the good paladins don't care because they will be able to win post patch just as easily as before?

Yea with your single barely over 2K 2v2 team, you obviously are much better then everyone else in this thread. With all that skill you must have obviously hit the full potential of this class and know that we will be gods before and after the nerf. Obviously, everyone else in this thread and everyone who complains is a noob and should learn from you. Obviously.
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#19 Svenn

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 09:23 PM

Or, the good paladins don't care because they will be able to win post patch just as easily as before?

Dont talk about something you know nothing about, thanks. :?
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#20 Duljan

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 07:29 AM

So, pretty much it's gonna be lock/druid, mage/rogue at the top next season.



I keep hearing about these combos, but I've yet to see them in real action. Currently, there's only one warlock + healer team in my BG's top 10, and that's my team (pally + lock).

I don't think I've ever seen mage/rogue, but it sounds completely awful.

The people completely dominating 2v2 right now, according to

http://www.geekboys....ll/all/all/all/

are druid + warrior. Check it out. It's something like 6 out of the top 10 2v2 teams in the world are druid + warrior.
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