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Frost damage needs to be reevaluated


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#41 Horrible

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:04 PM

When does it ever do 11k damage? Are you not playing people who actually use resilience? Check out the first post on this thread then you should edit your post for content so that Affix doesn't make you look like a fool.


With tricks it routinely does 11k damage?
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#42 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:06 PM

Playing a frost mage with some PvE gear I don't really see where the problem in damage is, if you balance a class around half their spells critting what happens when they all do? If a frost bolt+icelance does 11k damage what happens when you get a frost bolt+frost bolt+fireball+icelance for 20k damage?


Then something will get to low health (read: NOT EVEN DIE), if cooldowns aren't used or silences/interrupts. Why is it so offensive to you that a Mage that gets two casts off, a few instant cast spells, and uses a few procs can ALMOST kill someone? Why should triple frost strike do 20k+ if FB+FB+IL+FB all critting does less?

If multiple casts, ALL critting, plus procs and cooldowns doesn't kill someone, what should? This is not a hypothetical question, I'm honestly curious why you think Mages shouldn't be allowed to do competitive damage.

If you want mage damage to be where you would like it in full PvP gear it's going to be retarded in PvE gear (which 90% of mages use).


The difference between PvP gear and PvE gear is a few hundred damage on frostbolts. We're talking the difference between a post-buffed 8.5k shatter and a 9k shatter.
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#43 Horrible

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:10 PM

Then something will get to low health (read: NOT EVEN DIE), if cooldowns aren't used or silences/interrupts. Why is it so offensive to you that a Mage that gets two casts off, a few instant cast spells, and uses a few procs can ALMOST kill someone?



The difference between PvP gear and PvE gear is a few hundred damage on frostbolts. We're talking the difference between a post-buffed 8.5k shatter and a 9k shatter.


A PvE spellpower on proc trinket+two piece 8.5 proc along with lightweave+500 or so passive spellpower (difference between offensively geared or defensively geared) will add more than 500 damage to a shatter.

Why should a mage be able to do almost 100% of a targets life in ~5 seconds because of a few lucky procs? The game is being balanced on 3v3, an environment where you will have support from another class.

Triple FS shouldn't do 20k damage and it was massively nerfed so it doesn't, you need a new arguement.
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#44 Horrible

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:13 PM

What should kill someone is the combined damage from two classes+well timed CC's, not a lucky shatter in a soft CS.
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#45 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:15 PM

A PvE spellpower on proc trinket+two piece 8.5 proc along with lightweave+500 or so passive spellpower (difference between offensively geared or defensively geared) will add more than 500 damage to a shatter.


Yep, trinkets and procs make you do more damage, I understand. We're still only talking about ~3% more passive damage, and ~10% with procs up.

Why should a mage be able to do almost 100% of a targets life in ~5 seconds because of a few lucky procs? The game is being balanced on 3v3, an environment where you will have support from another class.


Because if a Mage that gets really lucky with procs, crits, and actually gets two successful spell casts off should do enough damage so that the enemy's team also has to support the recipient of the damage. It works both ways.

Really there's a more obvious answer: If you leave things the way they are, Mages will continue to perform poorly in every bracket. Damage needs to be increased, and if they increase it too much, they can tone it back. But to suggest that it shouldn't be raised without addressing the fact that we aren't performing well on live is not an effective or persuasive argument.

What should kill someone is the combined damage from two classes+well timed CC's, not a lucky shatter in a soft CS.


I'm asking for ~15% more damage on shatter, which would change it from ~8k to 9200. That won't kill anyone. Stop trolling.
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#46 Syia

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:20 PM

I hate getting randomly fucked up in a bg because some fag pops around a corner and opens on me after I blink. Auto death if I blink a deathgrip and get hoj'd/cheapshot without block. Only viable option to get away is rocket boots. But I also realize I can do do the same exact thing back to an unsuspecting player.
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#47 Horrible

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:23 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there just a major patch that will effect the 3v3 bracket in a large way? It seems like you should wait and see how the current changes hit.

Mages are a bad 2v2 class and always have been, they have a few niche comps that good mages can get high rated with though. They are a solid 3v3 class with a trademark comp that will make sure they are always viable in atleast one comp, not to mention the various wizard cleaves and WMD that they can play now. 5v5 mages are a decent class, their representation is lower in 5v5 but it's still above DK's/Rogue's/Druid's.
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#48 Nabla

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:23 PM

I hate when my shatter doesn't crit at all. Coooldowns wasted for a whopping 5k damage, this should be fixed.
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#49 Frozzt

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:26 PM

Heres a screenshot of a shatter against a 950 resil :shaman:.
http://img23.imagesh...56/shatterk.jpg

Ele shaman in stunz:confused:
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#50 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:28 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there just a major patch that will effect the 3v3 bracket in a large way? It seems like you should wait and see how the current changes hit before you give mages enough damage to one shot someone ala destro warlocks.


It has been made clear that we believed our damage was too low BEFORE the patch. Our representation statistics are from before 3.2, not after, and none of the changes made to Mages or Mage comps will significantly change our performance. Our damage is lower overall. Our problem was that damage was too low. We weren't underperforming because of incoming damage, so the resil change doesn't help us much.

Mages are a bad 2v2 class and always have been, they have a few niche comps that good mages can get high rated with though. They are a solid 3v3 class with a trademark comp that will make sure they are always viable in atleast one comp, not to mention the various wizard cleaves and WMD that they can play now. 5v5 mages are a decent class, their representation is lower in 5v5 but it's still above DK's/Rogue's/Druid's.

We're dead last in 5v5. We're 8th in 3v3, even with RMP bolstering our representation. All of these points have been addressed. "You suck in 2v2 but its okay because you're okay in 3s or 5s" is illogical, because I've already shown we are not okay in 3s and 5s. If you have anything to share with us other than your opinion which goes against all measurable statistics, please, show it to me. Otherwise, you're just wrong.
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#51 kzn

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:29 PM

If multiple casts, ALL critting, plus procs and cooldowns doesn't kill someone, what should? This is not a hypothetical question, I'm honestly curious why you think Mages shouldn't be allowed to do competitive damage.


In the absence of anything else that really shouldn't kill someone. If the healer is locked or cc'd, sure, but basically getting random kills purely because you get a crit chain or the right proc at the right time shouldn't happen.

That should go for everyone else too though.
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#52 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:34 PM

In the absence of anything else that really shouldn't kill someone. If the healer is locked or cc'd, sure, but basically getting random kills purely because you get a crit chain or the right proc at the right time shouldn't happen.

That should go for everyone else too though.


If you read what this post was in response to, what we were specifically talking about was a Mage that had Lightweave Cloak procced, trinket used, Tricks of the Trade, and then got two frostbolt crits, an ice lance crit, and a fireball crit. And it still wouldn't kill the target.

I'm not saying that strings of crits should kill someone, but two 2.5 base speed casts that crit plus two instant casts that crit, one that's a proc, with THREE *HUGE* damage modifying cooldowns should do a lot of damage. If someone doesn't have to blow cooldowns to survive through that, how can we ever kill someone under normal situations?

We might get that crit string with those cooldowns procced once every 200 games if we're lucky. To say that a Priest shouldn't have to use pain suppression or their DPS shouldn't throw out a silence or interrupt seems totally illogical to me.
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#53 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:38 PM

Really what this all boils down to is us saying "we need more damage" and other people saying "Well you can't have more damage because you have all this other good stuff".

All the other good stuff is not working. This is a fact, not an opinion, and no justifications can make it not true. If you disagree that the way to solve our poor performance is to add damage, suggest what you think the actual solution is. Because right now, I don't see any other way.

"You can't buff them by representation because the best of the best mages will do too well" has been refuted. That copout doesn't work anymore, not with the top 100 the way it is.
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#54 Son

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:43 PM

Really, you are twisting numbers to make your own argument seem more valid. The reason why your "2,5sec BASE" cast bolts don't crit for more, is that you stack the haste. Yes, i get its the best to do, but then using the 2,5sec speed in your arguement is voided.

Furthermore, you can throw out some solid burst with the right procs etc. However, you're doing this on top of some of the best CC. Sheep / blanket CS on a healer buys u more time to nuke then just that one shatter. Now team that up with a, rogue?, stunning your nuking target, pumping dmg into it. You are not killing that target on your own and u know it. You are however the #1 class at setting up a kill oppotunity and you have the shatter burst potential to actually drop that target.

You should not be able to solokill some target when you have the posibility to shut out several players at once at the same time.

Now, go flame me cus im a warrior and my oppinion is biased. Cus it is.
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#55 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:48 PM

Really, you are twisting numbers to make your own argument seem more valid. The reason why your "2,5sec BASE" cast bolts don't crit for more, is that you stack the haste. Yes, i get its the best to do, but then using the 2,5sec speed in your arguement is voided.


It isn't 2.5 because we either use cooldowns to change it, or we sacrifice some damage for faster speed. Either way, it is doing less damage than most instant attacks. You cannot ignore this.

Furthermore, you can throw out some solid burst with the right procs etc. However, you're doing this on top of some of the best CC. Sheep / blanket CS on a healer buys u more time to nuke then just that one shatter. Now team that up with a, rogue?, stunning your nuking target, pumping dmg into it. You are not killing that target on your own and u know it. You are however the #1 class at setting up a kill oppotunity and you have the shatter burst potential to actually drop that target.


Already addressed. Yep, RMP is good. Yep, we set up other classes well. Yep, we're a good utility class. We're still bottom of the barrel by all measures, and all the hand waving in the world won't change this fact.

You should not be able to solokill some target when you have the posibility to shut out several players at once at the same time.


I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for roughly 15% more damage on my main nukes. Argue against my points, not against a straw man.

Now, go flame me cus im a warrior and my oppinion is biased. Cus it is.


I didn't know what your class was when I wrote this reply, and I frankly don't care what class you play :)
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#56 Son

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:48 PM

All the other good stuff is not working. This is a fact, not an opinion, and no justifications can make it not true.

I guess cus u wrote it in bold it must be true :\

I get it that the rep on mages are too low compared to others - i mean, that is how we compare balance amongst classes right? ;>
Well, alot of stuff was changed (nerfed) on classes that help keeping mages down, so, give it time, maybe those changes to those classes is enough to get your rep up without making a overpowered change like buffing your already good dmg.
In the end its your own choice that u gem haste>sp so u can't outskill ppl in a shatter ^^
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#57 Pirated

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

ice lance needs to be reevaluated

it's going to be a bigger problem at 90 when I'm sure you suckers are still going to be playing

frostbolt has so many procs and talents attached to it that I think it's acceptable that other nukes hit harder
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#58 Horrible

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:50 PM

You're right, the only thing that belongs in this thread is your stubborn opinion that you would never change no matter what.

You are entirely avoiding my point, mages have plenty of viable comps for 3v3 and 5v5, 2v2 is harder but you have a niche comp that does work. Your representation is low but that doesn't change the fact that you have viable comps that you can easily get high ratings with.

You say that the overall opinion by mages is that mage damage is too low, well that's too bad, the overall opinion is by rogues that rogue damage is low and mobility is bad and survivability is bad, luckily they are both classes that have lots of control, classes that before only had damage are going to be in a much worse place now.

It's great that you think that 3.2 won't change mage representation but you're still going to have to wait and see how the new changes effect the meta game.

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#59 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:51 PM

I guess cus u wrote it in bold it must be true :\


No, the statistics I provided make it true. Don't be dense.

I get it that the rep on mages are too low compared to others - i mean, that is how we compare balance amongst classes right? ;>
Well, alot of stuff was changed (nerfed) on classes that help keeping mages down, so, give it time, maybe those changes to those classes is enough to get your rep up without making a overpowered change like buffing your already good dmg.


3.2 is a net nerf to Mage viability. I can't prove this, but believe me, the numbers will show it very soon.

In the end its your own choice that u gem haste>sp so u can't outskill ppl in a shatter ^^


Yeah, that ~300 spell power making my shatters hit for 7.3k instead of 7k really does make all the difference.
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#60 affix

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:57 PM

You're right, the only thing that belongs in this thread is your stubborn opinion that you would never change no matter what.

You are entirely avoiding my point, mages have plenty of viable comps for 3v3 and 5v5, 2v2 is harder but you have a niche comp that does work. Your representation is low but that doesn't change the fact that you have viable comps that you can easily get high ratings with.


Pretty much every spec of every class can hit a high rating with one comp or another, with a few notable exceptions. That's not a valid argument. Yes, outliers exist. I'm one of them. That doesn't mean Mages are balanced. I'm not avoiding your point, I'm invalidating it.

You say that the overall opinion by mages is that mage damage is too low, well that's too bad, the overall opinion is by rogues that rogue damage is low and mobility is bad and survivability is bad, luckily they are both classes that have lots of control, classes that before only had damage are going to be in a much worse place now.


Rogues perform well, Mages don't.

It's great that you think that 3.2 won't change mage representation but you're still going to have to wait and see how the new changes effect the meta game.


The problem existed before 3.2, and lowering our damage will in no way fix our problem that our damage was too low.

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I was obviously using realmhistory statistics. Again, yes, outliers exist, but I'm not sure why you think that proves anything - we've already established that Mages have less successful overall outliers than other classes (SK 100).
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