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#1 Tammyaway

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:54 AM

Let's say you're a businessman representing your company in a negotiation with another company. What is the single most effective tactic you can employ to maximize the chance of achieving your goal?

Is it having great charisma and charm? is it by making valid and logical arguments that support your cause? is it by distracting the opposition from the important stuff? is it by showing the opposition what they can gain by helping you? what is the best tactic to "win" the negotiation?

The answer (and this has been proven statistically by tests) is that whoever makes the first offer will usually have a decisive edge in the negotiation.

To understand why, read this:

1) The first pharaoh of egypt was extremely proud of his land and in particular the shrines he had built in it. It is said that at it's peak of glory, egypt had 1547 shrines of worship throughout the land.

2) Leonardo da Vinci was one of the most talented people in history. On what year was he born?

What just happened? the first number that popped to our head was 1547, even though it has nothing to do with Leonardo de Vinci's year of birth (he was actually born nearly a 100 years before that, on 1452). Our brain was trying to find a number to work with and it automatically goes for the last and most fresh memory we have that contains numbers, which is the number of shrines the first pharaoh had (I made that part up btw). This phenomenon is known as anchoring and it is exactly why the first bidder in a negotiation gains a decisive edge: the bidder effectively creates an anchor with the first bid and all further negotiations revolve around that anchor.

Anchors, when done correctly, can be a very powerful tool.

An example of an ineffective anchor: if for example instead of da vinci, I asked you when was britney spears born. For most people the number 1547 would STILL pop first in their head but they would immediately dismiss it as completely illogical. This is the equivalent of making a ridiculous offer in a negotiation, so ridiculous that it makes you look bad.

How does any of this apply to WoW?

As many of you noticed, this patch is a major disappointment for the hunter community. After sucking in 5 out of 6 seasons Blizzard still refuses to fix us. The situation is so dire that even our class hero expressed his feelings of being worn out and that "all the facts, logic, and experience the hunter community provides is utterly pointless."

Like it or not, our relation with the Blizzard design staff is basically a form of negotiation. We propose changes for our class and they consider them. The problem is that since the first day of arenas hunters have been asking for exactly what they truly needed when infact they should have been anchoring for much stronger buffs. If you think we need something, ask for twice as much and it's possible we get what we "truly" deserve.

In other words, you'll always get less than what you ask for, it's just the way it is (except for expansion periods, more on that later). The blizzard staff are people just like all of us and their brain works exactly the same way. If you start a discussion with some buffs that are too strong, that will be what the people in that discussion work with and all further negotiations will revolve around that anchor. If you do it properly, the anchor will stick and it will be effective. If you overdo it, it will not work.

A good example of this is a thread on the lock forums (there's a million other examples, I see it all the time and not just in WoW), someone suggested giving locks an aoe disarm with 30 sec c/d. It's not even certain if he's a troll or not but it doesn't matter: the anchor sticks and all the discussions in that thread revolve around that anchor. This is the single most effective way to deal with Blizzard devs imho (and it's not like the traditional way of asking for exactly what we need worked so far). We have to overshoot our designated target to eventually reach it when the "negotiation" ends.

Now I want you to think back and tell yourself when was the ONLY period of time we received exactly what we asked for? that's right, it was when they were designing the expansion. Blizzard knows how people behave, and people normally like to do big changes in their life when some big event ends or starts (how many times have you heard people say "it's a new year, from now on I quit smoking" or "it's my 30th birthday, from now on I eat healthy"). Big events make us pause and reflect on our lives and this is why it's alot more likely for someone to say "when the expansion comes I quit WoW" than it is for him to say "when 3.2 patch comes I quit WoW". When you're in the middle of Wotlk, all tied up with your char and gearing it up it's alot harder to quit, but an expansion is a risky time for Blizzard so they have to give us something to look forward to, which is why they practically gave each class everything they asked for and gave them alot to look forward to. The ONLY time we'll get exactly what we ask for is when they're designing an expansion, any other time we need to anchor up and overshoot our target by quite alot, in order to get what we really need.

#2 Flarebrass

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:59 AM

This should be stickied.

#3 vroomt

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:00 AM

1547 didn't pop into my head, does that mean I have to read the rest of that?

Ok I did cause I've got nothing better to do, don't know why you needed the first part but I agree with 'crazy over the top holy fuck we'll never get that' buff proposals.  Maybe it stems from the early seasons when we weren't that good and got used to playing like that but it seems like we never ask for a large amount of buffs and even proposed nurfs for ourselves in s5 when the majority of us felt we were OP.  Not sure if I've ever seen any other class do that but it's pretty fucking strange to want your class to just be borderline competitive and not insanely OP.
I'll fuckin job ya cunt

#4 Mom

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:02 AM

what's the purpose of this

#5 nattehfat

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:09 AM

nice ,,article"
next expansion hunter gets op again i guess - this time 4.2 patch will bring even more (30?) nerfs

#6 Tammyaway

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:10 AM

Mom said:

what's the purpose of this

The purpose is that we change our approach. Our "fair" approach hasn't worked for 6 seasons, if you keep doing something and it doesn't work, why do you keep doing it (while expecting it to miraculously work next time)?

#7 zzid

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:17 AM

You've brought very good points to this board, it was quite interesting to read.

Something that I've noticed a lot is that people do cling to ideas, two suggestions that are quite heavily thrown around are a 30s masters call, or a 'trap launcher'. Almost every hunter on the boards says that we would benefit very much from them, and really there aren't many improvements that the general consensus comes up with.

We've gotten a few thigns that we've asked for, 5s off disengage, a roar of sacrifice that we can give to teammates, and the overwhelming thought to seriously consider rerolling.

You're saying that the adage, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." is the best strategy for us to achieve a goal. I disagree, we are one class who are hated by many, this is not a fair negotiation. For every hunter saying "we are at a disadvantage.", there's two melee classes saying "hunters are fine".


3v3 and 5v5: Are Hunter players just bad?
Predict Gladiator Distribution by class
How would you fix the Hunter class in 3 changes or less

Two recent posts in the General Discussion forums. The first thread, barely any class other than a hunter would state 'yeah, hunters are obviously not very good', mostly everyone said "There's about 5-10 hunters in the world who are good.", more or less. Second thread, almost EVERYONE selected hunters as the lowest % glad, and barely anyone said that the hunter class needed buffs, but more inclined to the class being fine, only driven by poor players. In the third thread, most fixes are "BUG FIXES, TRAP LAUNCHER, MASTERS CALL", mostly proving your anchor theory.

I will agree that the 'bitching' method of gaining what you want is the best method in WoW, but it's not realistic when you consider our position.


Quote

Is it having great charisma and charm? is it by making valid and logical arguments that support your cause? is it by distracting the opposition from the important stuff? is it by showing the opposition what they can gain by helping you? what is the best tactic to "win" the negotiation?

This is what i'de consider our best chance at attaining something relatively close to balance. Hunter's share a large majority of the playing population, and games are supposed to be fun. Create an opportunity where hunters are not overpowered, but provide synergy between a lot of classes, and friends. As of right now we can only play with paladins, that's the truth, our only chance at attaining a competitive edge is if we receive Hand of Freedom. If we play without one, we are trained obnoxiously by melee, and it won't get any better in 3.2.
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#8 Tammyaway

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:50 AM

I agree with you that people cling to ideas, that's because they got anchored! :)

I don't think that the all hunters play badly argument is relevant. Blizzard knows there is no skill difference between hunters and rogues (that's like saying if all hunters and rogues swapped accounts suddenly hunters would be at 20% representation and rogues would be at 2%).

More importantly, Blizzard reads AJ too, even if we are hated and outposted on the official forums, they read these forums and take them seriously. We should start asking for more.

#9 zzid

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:52 AM

Tammyaway said:

I agree with you that people cling to ideas, that's because they got anchored! :)

I don't think that the all hunters play badly argument is relevant. Blizzard knows there is no skill difference between hunters and rogues (that's like saying if all hunters and rogues swapped accounts suddenly hunters would be at 20% representation and rogues would be at 2%).

More importantly, Blizzard reads AJ too, even if we are hated and outposted on the official forums, they read these forums and take them seriously. We should start asking for more.

Can you provide a single thread outside, (fuck, even inside) the hunter forums that actually has a majority of players actively saying hunters are underpowered? The hunter voice isn't the only voice that is heard when considering our balance, my point is that bitching is useless for us because we just get bitched back 20x.

Our goal should be synergy with classes who aren't a paladin, pure and simple, whatever means are required to do so should be sought after, our % will go up with the amount of classes are able to play with.

Hmm, yeah oh well i'm not really providing any way to ask for help, just saying bitching won't work, i'm not much of a problem solver!
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#10 brosi

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:28 AM

zzid said:

5s off disengage

Patch 3.1.2 (2009-05-19): Cooldown reduced by 5 seconds.
Patch 3.1.0 (2009-04-14): Cooldown increased by 5 sec.
Patch 3.0.3 (2008-11-04): Now fails if you're rooted and is no longer on the global cooldown. Cooldown reduced to 25 seconds and no longer requires a target, though the hunter has to be in combat.
Patch 3.0.2 (2008-10-14): This ability has been re-designed. Now leaps the Hunter backwards up to 13 yards. 30 second cooldown. Disengage now also only has one rank (rank 1)


They gave it to us then took it away with 3.1, then waited a full month and change to give it back to us.  More than likely if hunters somehow get more furious gladiator titles than at least one of the other 9 classes, we can see those 5 seconds taken away again.

Ugh I hate playing this class, but others are boring.

#11 Malacothdai

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:43 AM

this is the best post i have ever read on aj.  rarely do i learn something from WoW that is this useful outside of WoW (even from Ming..joking joking).

#12 drole

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:34 AM

zzid said:

Our goal should be synergy with classes who aren't a paladin, pure and simple, whatever means are required to do so should be sought after, our % will go up with the amount of classes are able to play with.

let me try this in combination with the bitching strat:

Undispelable traps that does not share dr with any other cc in the game.

#13 Rabidhobo

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:44 AM

i don't think the best way to go about convincing blizzard to buff hunters is by trying to psychologically trick them into giving hunters buffs as a middle ground between some crazy offer and what they want. in fact i think this is possibly the most pathetic thing i've ever seen.

#14 Levidian

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:21 PM

While everything posted sounds good on paper I really don't think that approach will work in the slightest. Whoever yells the loudest gets the changes and we don't have enough people to yell above the other parts of the crowd.

Whether people will admit to it or not there is a bias against hunters. If you lose to a hunter the hunter needs nerfed. If you beat a hunter the hunter is fine. That is how a vast majority of the arena population expresses their feelings even if it's at the subconscious level.
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#15 fant0m8

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:20 PM

I hate bitching for over the top buffs though. :( Feels dirty.

That's why I like the Hunter community, compared to Mages, Warriors, Rogues (perhaps Paladins/Warlocks too) we're actually fairly honest and fair with our suggestions (for the most part).

It is frustrating to play a class that is abandoned by developers and misunderstood by other players, but there are so many moments where I really love being a Hunter that I'm sticking with it for now.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#16 Tammyaway

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:47 PM

Levidia people feel that way about all classes. How often do you see someone say "we got outplayed" when they lose to RMP?

"Yelling the loudest" usually coincides with asking for over the top buffs, it's just the way it is. Maybe we need to start yelling on US forums too, cos our current method has failed for 6 seasons now.

Russet I understand that it makes you feel dirty, but if you know that in the end it will will lead to the "right" result, us getting what we really need, isn't it a good thing?

#17 Levidian

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:05 PM

Tammyaway said:

Levidia people feel that way about all classes. How often do you see someone say "we got outplayed" when they lose to RMP?

"Yelling the loudest" usually coincides with asking for over the top buffs, it's just the way it is. Maybe we need to start yelling on US forums too, cos our current method has failed for 6 seasons now.

Russet I understand that it makes you feel dirty, but if you know that in the end it will will lead to the "right" result, us getting what we really need, isn't it a good thing?

I gave up posting on the wow forums just because of the atmosphere. I still cross post a wowriot blog on there when I write one for shits and giggles. (I don't link because I could give a shit less about the hits or +1s)

I figure besides posting the occasional blog and staying active on the AJ hunter forums things I'm saying are getting read even if they aren't getting "heard".
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#18 nattehfat

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:58 PM

i can bet that:
1. you wont be listened
2. hunter will be last on average of 3 brackets next patch here -> http://www.realmhist...-breakdown.html

#19 Jobelina

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:18 PM

Lets all go spam official forums so we can be balanced? And don't spam balanced stuff, scream for insanely OP stuff!

#20 Sparkys

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:31 PM

MASTERS CALL SHOULD LAST 10 SECONDS W/O TALENTED AND HAVE A 30 SECOND COOLDOWN




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