Jump to content

Photo

[Blizzard] Blizzard on Cleaves and Plate vs. Cloth.


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
187 replies to this topic

#1 Jhuudhun

Jhuudhun
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tortheldrin
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 1,132
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:02 AM

Player vs. Player
Cleaves too dominant in Arenas

Official Blizzard Quote:


We think cleave teams are too dominant, especially in 2s. We don't think they are as bad in 3s, but the community is very focused on 2s at the moment.

We don't think it's as simple as melee classes doing too much damage or having too much armor. We don't even necessarily think it's "melee" because I'm not convinced shamans and druids are affected. We think it has more to do with ranged classes not always able to bring their CC or survival tools to bear against melee.

Keep in mind when you are talking about Arena comps, the issue isn't as simple as saying that X beats Y. Often it's a question of who you want on your team. To take just one example, we think that last season if you were trying to decide between a hunter and warrior, the hunter brought a lot more to the table. There was no benefit to be gained from taking a warrior instead. There were a lot of reasons for this, but one of them was that physical damage just wasn't that useful and another was that warriors could never keep on a target. Another was that DKs and paladins dominated smaller brackets. In this season you can make the argument that warriors are more attractive than hunters. One of the things that a hunter could theoretically bring -- stronger CC in the form of traps -- may not be useful enough compared to say the CC you could get from a mage. This has almost nothing to do with warriors beating hunters in 1v1 duel situations and everything to do with how you want to build your team.

Obviously (I hope) I am boiling down a complicated situation to a simplistic level for purposes of illustration. My point is that often, in our minds, it's rarely as simple as "If my class did more damage, my class would be at 10% Arena representation."


Plate Armor vs. Cloth

Official Blizzard Quote:


I think you are just looking at the armor number and assuming that translates to survivability. A lot of the damage done, some even from plate wearers, is not physical. Plate-wearers are by and large melee while cloth-wearers are by and large ranged. If you're a caster, not only are you doing ranged damage but you're punching right through the armor anyway. All the casters have spells that increase their mitigation far beyond the simple armor number on their cloth.

I think a lot of the arguments you see on the forums right now about melee > ranged are simplistic. The armor on plate probably has an effect, but I don't think it's the main effect. Consider the rock-paper-scissors of a generic melee class to a generic caster class. The balance is supposed to be that the caster can cause damage at range. The melee class can attempt to close to do damage, but the caster has crowd control and escape mechanisms to get away. Now consider that most of the caster crowd control and some escape mechanisms are magic, which can be dispelled, while the snares, stuns and charges from melee are often physical or can't be dispelled at all. From that POV, you could argue that dispels and Blessing of Freedom in particular, are far more destabilizing to Arena balance than just plate.


Source: mmo-champion.com

EDIT:

New post, concerning Ghostcrawler's use of 'cleave' when talking about 2s:

Official Blizzard Quote:

It's hard to keep Internet jargon constrained. A lot of players are using melee and cleave as synonyms, which I agree isn't a very precise definition. I'll probably just avoid using the term from now on.

Regardless, we do think certain types of melee are too well represented especially in the 2s bracket. We don't think this is a fundamental flaw with how casting works. We just think the caster escape mechanisms can't trump the melee closing mechanisms, which they need to sometimes.

  • 0

#2 Alysana

Alysana
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1,538

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:08 AM

Player vs. Player
Cleaves too dominant in Arenas

Official Blizzard Quote:


We think cleave teams are too dominant, especially in 2s. We don't think they are as bad in 3s, but the community is very focused on 2s at the moment.


Source: mmo-champion.com


I really really hope that was some kind of typo.
  • 0

#3 Kewpa

Kewpa
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Frostmane
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 604
  • Talents: Demonology 0/2/2/2/0/2

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:09 AM

I really really hope that was some kind of typo.

What the fuck is 2s cleave seriously
  • 0

#4 Pookette

Pookette
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 3,108
  • Talents: Destruction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:13 AM

don't start the whole "2s cleave" shit again, there is already a 20 page thread on that. W/e he doesn't know arena terminology but he was obviously referring to melee/healer teams.
  • 0

#5 Jhuudhun

Jhuudhun
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tortheldrin
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 1,132
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:15 AM

Removed this post as it was outdated information. Please delete. Sorry about that everyone.
  • 0

#6 Pyrilus

Pyrilus
  • Moderators
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 4,113
  • Talents: Destruction 0/2/2/0/2/1
  • RBG: 1143

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:21 AM

And now you must tie this into a discussion of how this affects warlocks or this thread doesn't have a place here ^_^
  • 0

#7 Pookette

Pookette
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 3,108
  • Talents: Destruction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:21 AM

that's a really old post dude... like from january
  • 0

#8 Jhuudhun

Jhuudhun
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tortheldrin
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 1,132
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:23 AM

And now you must tie this into a discussion of how this affects warlocks or this thread doesn't have a place here ^_^


Sure.

How are warlocks supposed to petition for class reform when the lead developer believes that blessing of freedom is a larger problem than cloth armor?
  • 0

#9 Teagan

Teagan

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:23 AM

glad he didnt mention vanish for our very potent defense mechanisms
  • 0
Xfire live stream chats- where everyone is 2800 rated

#10 Jhuudhun

Jhuudhun
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tortheldrin
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 1,132
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:24 AM

that's a really old post dude... like from january


Ooh, so it is. I'll change that. Thanks. I thought it was a recent post for some reason.
  • 0

#11 Pookette

Pookette
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 3,108
  • Talents: Destruction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:24 AM

Sure.

How are warlocks supposed to petition for class reform when the lead developer believes that blessing of freedom is a larger problem than cloth armor?


i find this beyond stupid, he somehow things that melee is unkitable cuz of dispels... yeah my ass, they are unkitable cuz they have suck powerful snares and a fucking million gap closers.
  • 0

#12 manifest

manifest
  • Rinnwerkx
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Hyjal
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 410
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:29 AM

"Mage -- fragile but slippery. Lots of damage from Arcane Barrage. Gets away with Blink, Frost Nova, Ice Block... everyone knows the drill here."

rofl
  • 0

#13 Craton

Craton
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Hyjal
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 5,298
  • Talents:

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:31 AM

Ah yep.
  • 0
화이팅

#14 manifest

manifest
  • Rinnwerkx
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Hyjal
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 410
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:31 AM

warriors are fine too, i guess according to GC they do less damage and have less survivability than rogues....
GOOD GOD HE IS RETARDED.
  • 0

#15 entrails

entrails
  • Members
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 423
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:32 AM

no one EVER talks about plate armor when they talk about melee vs caster, wtf. the only time that ever comes up is rogue vs other melee, because they die in single stuns.

any kind of melee vs caster argument will center around amount of damage they can do, how easily they can do the damage (how effectively melee can be kited, or casters can be prevented from casting), and the fact that stacking melee (that's cleave, in case you're GC and don't know what the means yet) makes for dumbed down comps.

When have you ever heard a caster complain about melee having too much armor?? Never, because to a caster their armor is COMPLETELY irrelevant. I just don't understand who's concerns that post was directed at.

(i guess i do actually agree with him that armor isn't the problem. i just wasn't aware anyone actually thought that.)
  • 0

#16 manifest

manifest
  • Rinnwerkx
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Hyjal
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 410
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:34 AM

still in awe how he mentions MAGES and rogues over warriors and druids

who the fuck complains about mages other than the occasional mage armor thread
  • 0

#17 Kewpa

Kewpa
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Frostmane
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 604
  • Talents: Demonology 0/2/2/2/0/2

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:34 AM

And now you must tie this into a discussion of how this affects warlocks or this thread doesn't have a place here ^_^


Warlocks get buttfucked by cleave so this post directly effects warlocks in 2v2. dididoitrite?
  • 0

#18 Glickz

Glickz
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 900
  • Talents: Destruction 2/1/0/0/2/0/0
  • 2v2: 288
  • 3v3: 2403
  • RBG: 1806

Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:40 AM

the whole notion that lol casters dont have it bad since everything you do goes throguh armor anyway heh is flawed. damage is the same on every class while melee is more polarized to be able to rape casters and now with ridiculous armor pen stacking they're raping everyone else too
  • 0

#19 Craton

Craton
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Hyjal
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 5,298
  • Talents:

Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:47 AM

still in awe how he mentions MAGES and rogues over warriors and druids

who the fuck complains about mages other than the occasional mage armor thread


Pretty sure he mentioned that solely because he wanted to downplay how overpowered cleave really is. He's like Bush, started out with really high confidence levels when he took over, now he's proven to be shit.
  • 0
화이팅

#20 Tattertotts

Tattertotts
  • Premium Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • US-Silvermoon
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 323
  • Talents:

Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:56 AM

Just got through playing 21 games trying to get my warrior's 3s up so I can get him a furious weapon. Started out as shadow/holypally/warrior and the priest switched to his raiding DK after the third game of cleave stomping him in seconds.

All but one team we fought was some iteration of ret/x/x or dk/x/x with atleast 75% of the teams having a ret. My favorite part was when I got hammered in RoV, trinketed, shield walled, and died in 5 seconds to hunter/priest/ret.

It's so stupid at this point it's not even funny, I can't even imagine what it would be like on my warlock but it scares me to think about it. Just gonna go back to doing battlegrounsds with friends and hoping something comes along to fix whatever it is that is going on.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<