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What are a couple necessary nerfs rogues need?


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#41 Powerslave

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 11:32 AM

nerf thorns and ret aura and nerf rogues somewhere else to compensate
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#42 Bailou

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 11:41 AM

people want rogues back to not being able to kill any kind of mail+ armor hurrah
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#43 Witness

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:06 PM

Rogues should not be nerfed, overall damage of all classes should be toned down.
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#44 sarinn

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:14 PM

wait what? i've played my rogue since classic. in s1-s4 30% woundpoison proc was enough to allways have at least a 1-3 woundstack up. now that it ony requires one stack to be at full potential, all a 50% proc does is provide unmigitated dmg. the only part where this dmg is truely noticeable is plate. rogues are an anti cloth class, of course they should have harder times vs plate.

part of a rogues skill was managing poisons back then. they still where successful. now with deadly brew you can keep 3 poisons without even having to ever think about them. "lol poison was cleansed. np its back on, who needs shiv anyways?"

i can give constructive feedback on things that were needlessly changed from tbc->wotlk, you can only flame. lowering poisen proc will surely kill of mutilate, yea right...good rogues will remain good rogues, those who need a cruch like nonstop procs will have to gain some skill.

and if you remember classic, poison procs were a lot lower back then, nobody cared!

but who am i, just a kid with downs...


id have to agree with this statement. good rogues will remain good rogues because they dont rely on using cooldowns needlessly in gimmick fights. they actually use the class to the potential it can be used.

with a couple nerfs here and there, most facerolling rogues wont be 2400+.

you guys make it seem like its a boon to take someone from 100-0 in a stunlock combo or at least severely cripple their team. "oh my gosh why do i have to keep locking someone out from doing nothing, buff my survivability"

most of you rogues have provided zero ways to help anything. instead you same rogues have given troll and flame.

again, for those of you who can only reply with " go qq somewhere else ", this is not a qq post. this was to see who actually had any reasonableness left in them to see maybe, just maybe the majority of wow players might actually have the right perspective, and not just the minority of rogues who seem to think they have it all right.


again, one or two nerfs will not destroy your class. ive gone through too many nerfs to know that good players will remain good, despite the major/minor setback, and the ones who cant, reroll FOTM.
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#45 Pitiless

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:24 PM

Wow get off the rogue forums already moron. BTW if you couldn't get glad as a hunter in s5, no amount of rogue nerfing will help you this season.

G
T
F
O
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#46 Alabasta

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:28 PM

Aside from doing CS -> KS we got nothing to defend ourselves, in this 20 second downtime we will take full damage. (yes nothing, wich I explained in my last post).

Even the CS -> KS is countered in many ways, having your partner CC the rogue, Hand of Freedom, Trinket, Dodge, Miss, Parry, Resist.

DK's trinket sap just cause they won't get stunned for a while and still come out on top.

In 3v3 there is 2 people next to him aswell, who can still put full damage in on the rogue.

Thats why we need surv.
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#47 Loridan

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:35 PM

Fine, in pre bc and s1-4 poison was just a fact of life. Reduce the damage on wound poison. Constructive input. The damage difference when I don't have it on is incredibly noticeable and should nurf the class to your desire.

With the exception of the proc rate, I currently feel like there is nothing wrong with the class. Barring vanish, which has always been fail. I would also choose to mention that there are significantly more ways to get away from rogues now than there were at other points in the history of pvp. But regardless of a proc rate, what stops a druid from spamming cleanse while it's hots tick out for 14k? There are counters for rogues and not every class will be able to beat rogues all the time.

100% real talk, if you're talking about the WoW community in general, take away stealth. No player thinks being invisible is fair.

If you're talking about this community, the majority find some balance in counters. And if you really want to address the issue, I'd like to know which comps you find so problematic, or is it just the class in general? Duels/Arena/BGs? Are you talking about yourself or the general public? And finally what is your solution? Is it something that needs to be implemented immediately or can it wait?

I'll also include that I didn't mean any real offense I just think that in an arena setting you're not really at a disadvantage to a rogue, so I don't really understand your point. :confused:
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#48 sarinn

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:50 PM

this is of course an arena setting. no one in their right mind will try to argue pvp nerfs/changes/buffs soley based on BG/1v1.

and i have little issues with rogues. i just have some time to critique other classes.
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#49 Pitiless

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 12:53 PM

and i have little issues with rogues. i just have some time to critique other classes.


Why don't you save our time and critique some classes besides ours? Thanks
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#50 Atare

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:10 PM

now you cry about dying in 2-3 seconds but what about the first minute or so of not dying? is that supposed to reflect yoru lack of survivability?

i just love how rogues like you tend to turn things around and avoid the actual topic of the thread. good job troll.


Yes, actually that's exactly the point. Rogues are the only glass cannon class in this game currently and if it weren't for our damage potential when we have cooldowns, we would be lvl65 gimps.

The fact that incapable players cannot adapt to rogues in wotlk isn't reason enough to bring nerfs on the class. If you actually learned to play a bit, you'd see that r/p teams are perfectly counterable when you play it right, unlike dk/pala with double glg were in s5.

What you are asking is to remove our potential to burst the target in lockouts, but as mentioned above, without buffing survivability this would make rogues laughable at best. So what's your compromise, nerf overkill burst but buff survivability? Okay, that makes us stronger than ever before, because we can actually win consistently against GOOD teams, plus we have much higher margain of error.

And what happens 2-3 weeks after these changes? I can bet you would come here and ask what nerfs to rogue survivability are the best in our opinion- this kind of thinking just never ends and it's not constructive, so please don't go around calling people trolls when you are one yourself.
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#51 supm8

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:45 PM

and I won't ever touch a decent hunter bar maybe a cheap shot if i'm lucky.


Kk.
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#52 Bigwes5487

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:49 PM

I think the only thing OP about rogues is their opener with all these armor ignore damage proc'ing trinkets and engineering goodies coupled with overkill
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#53 ddank

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:53 PM

I think the only thing OP about rogues is their opener with all these armor ignore damage proc'ing trinkets and engineering goodies coupled with overkill


this

overkill is retarded
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#54 Lysander

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:55 PM

Basically Gigglestab is right -- Rogue openers are way too ridiculous with the way that damage has scaled past survivability in WotLK.

Changes:

Sap => 6 sec duration.
Overkill: Removed, replaced with some generic poison talent, like 40% more poison damage or something -- makes sense as prereq to Mut.
Wound Poison: Damage decreased, with new Mutilate pre-req talent is same as before.
Wound Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: 50% snare.
Vile Poisons applies to Wound/Cripple once again.
Bandits/Rocket Glove/Darkmoon Death/GLG all share internal cooldowns.

The general idea is this:
1) Nerf the Rogue opener. 10 second Sap to Cheap Shot is practically a death sentence with the amount of damage that can go out in 10 seconds.
2) Fix broken poison mechanics. Rogues spend 0 GCDs on snares and 0 GCDs on MS, and for some reason their snare is the best in the game and their MS is the hardest to take off. Forcing Shiv usage balances this out -- the guaranteed proc with Shiv should have some value.
3) Fix broken trinkets/tinkers. This should be obvious, Rogues simply exploit these more than others because all their damage is centered around a 4-8 second interval.
4) Normalized Crippling Poison. CoI is next..
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#55 Ramuuh

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:13 PM

I'm sure someone has said this before but dying in the first 10 second interval is not pvp and is not skill, its rogues being out of control and completely overpowered.

One thing i can think of is nerf pve gear in arenas(or buff resilience) Nerf the the proc rate of poisons its honestly too much globals/mana wasted trying to take em off. now go ahead and flame me idc just fix openers and blizzard stop pulling the pve card saying we dont want to hurt rogues damage in raids,simply retarded.
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#56 Pitiless

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:39 PM

2) Fix broken poison mechanics. Rogues spend 0 GCDs on snares and 0 GCDs on MS, and for some reason their snare is the best in the game and their MS is the hardest to take off.


The snare is dispellable. How is wound poison the hardest MS to take off? How do you take off aimed shot? Or mortal strike? WTF are you talking about?

I'd be fine with nerfing overkill and making all direct damage trinkets/glove enchant share a cooldown.

Poisons don't need to be changed. And if it comes down to it I'd rather our mutilate/eviscerate damage be nerfed than wound poison damage. We'd be doing horrible right now without our wound poison damage, with all the plate targets we have to fight in arena currently.

I really don't think rogues need a major overhaul. Overkill and direct damage proccs changed, that's about it.
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#57 Lysander

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:54 PM

The snare is dispellable. How is wound poison the hardest MS to take off? How do you take off aimed shot? Or mortal strike? WTF are you talking about?

I'd be fine with nerfing overkill and making all direct damage trinkets/glove enchant share a cooldown.

Poisons don't need to be changed. And if it comes down to it I'd rather our mutilate/eviscerate damage be nerfed than wound poison damage. We'd be doing horrible right now without our wound poison damage, with all the plate targets we have to fight in arena currently.

I really don't think rogues need a major overhaul. Overkill and direct damage proccs changed, that's about it.


Your MS reapplies 50% of the time on any weapon attack. Even if you Cleanse it, it is back on before you can do anything. MS/Aimed Shot can be taken off through BoP. This is probably one main reason why RMP is so good vs. Paladins -- when the Paladin BoPs, he has to waste another GCD or two cleansing before he can full heal, whereas other MS effects are removed right away.
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#58 phoeasdf

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:54 PM

their MS is the hardest to take off.


rofl

ps no

bop removing ms/aimed and cleanses removing wound are pretty comparable, the only ms effect that stands out is aimed being ranged
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#59 Alabasta

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 03:55 PM

Basically Gigglestab is right -- Rogue openers are way too ridiculous with the way that damage has scaled past survivability in WotLK.

Changes:

Sap => 6 sec duration.
Overkill: Removed, replaced with some generic poison talent, like 40% more poison damage or something -- makes sense as prereq to Mut.
Wound Poison: Damage decreased, with new Mutilate pre-req talent is same as before.
Wound Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: 50% snare.
Vile Poisons applies to Wound/Cripple once again.
Bandits/Rocket Glove/Darkmoon Death/GLG all share internal cooldowns.

The general idea is this:
1) Nerf the Rogue opener. 10 second Sap to Cheap Shot is practically a death sentence with the amount of damage that can go out in 10 seconds.
2) Fix broken poison mechanics. Rogues spend 0 GCDs on snares and 0 GCDs on MS, and for some reason their snare is the best in the game and their MS is the hardest to take off. Forcing Shiv usage balances this out -- the guaranteed proc with Shiv should have some value.
3) Fix broken trinkets/tinkers. This should be obvious, Rogues simply exploit these more than others because all their damage is centered around a 4-8 second interval.
4) Normalized Crippling Poison. CoI is next..


The scrubs entered the topic.. can you beat this guy? Give me your best shot.

If you get cheap shotted while your partner is sapped.. Your shit.
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#60 Bailou

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 04:23 PM

Basically Gigglestab is right -- Rogue openers are way too ridiculous with the way that damage has scaled past survivability in WotLK.

Changes:

Sap => 6 sec duration.
Overkill: Removed, replaced with some generic poison talent, like 40% more poison damage or something -- makes sense as prereq to Mut.
Wound Poison: Damage decreased, with new Mutilate pre-req talent is same as before.
Wound Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: Procrate decreased to 20%.
Crippling Poison: 50% snare.
Vile Poisons applies to Wound/Cripple once again.
Bandits/Rocket Glove/Darkmoon Death/GLG all share internal cooldowns.

The general idea is this:
1) Nerf the Rogue opener. 10 second Sap to Cheap Shot is practically a death sentence with the amount of damage that can go out in 10 seconds.
2) Fix broken poison mechanics. Rogues spend 0 GCDs on snares and 0 GCDs on MS, and for some reason their snare is the best in the game and their MS is the hardest to take off. Forcing Shiv usage balances this out -- the guaranteed proc with Shiv should have some value.
3) Fix broken trinkets/tinkers. This should be obvious, Rogues simply exploit these more than others because all their damage is centered around a 4-8 second interval.
4) Normalized Crippling Poison. CoI is next..


If you want all these changes through rogues are gonna be down at hunter level of "viability"

I don't know what you base sap being at 6 seconds for, for mediocre players sap can be abit OP but good players will not really have any big problems with sap.

Wound poison damage decrease, many people thinks that wound damage is too high and that it procs too much but you're not really looking at it from the rogues PoV right now I can kill an affliction lock and/or a priest that doesnt have a trinket and shield up within 10 seconds of stunlock, fair? No. Rogues still have problems going toe-toe with plate-dps classes except for warriors because as long as the warrior doesnt get any intercepts or charges on you he does literally 0 damage. You're also with a huge decrease on wound proccrate or damage in a position where you'd never be able to kill a restodruid EVER.

For Overkill, we all know by know that it's insane and is too good against any non plate class and still it's pretty damn insane vs plate as well.

You want to nerf crippling poison too? well it IS strong but it's really just that strong to make up for our generally really really shit.

Also for the poison part you'd come up with a solution for pve dps if you want to nerf it that much
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