Jump to content

Photo

What are a couple necessary nerfs rogues need?


  • Please log in to reply
153 replies to this topic

#1 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:12 AM

Unbiased, critical thinking.

what nerfs do rogues absolutely need to be or seen as balanced by the community?
  • 0

#2 Melondo

Melondo
  • Members
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • US-Arthas
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 188
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:15 AM

NERF THE SURVIVABILITY!!!!
  • 0

#3 Unseen

Unseen
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Alonsus
  • Cruelty / Crueldad
  • Posts: 62
  • Talents: Combat

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:19 AM

Rogues will never be seen as balanced by the masses, as people in blue gear will always die within cs->ks. Unless they move back to a less damage orientated style across the board, but as if that's gonna happen...
  • 0

#4 miayr

miayr
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Black Dragonflight
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 25
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:26 AM

Unbiased, critical thinking.

what nerfs do rogues absolutely need to be or seen as balanced by the community?


stupidity and self- opinions would need to be nerfed for us to be accepted by the masses
  • 0

#5 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:31 AM

stupidity and self- opinions would need to be nerfed for us to be accepted by the masses


hm, so skgamings top 100-200 majority, player experience, and massive amount of qq's are so skewed in perspective that rogues need no changes what so ever?

this is exactly what im getting, biased and critically stupid comments. ive only received 1 comment, and it was from a priest that was actually something that might help.

protip: not everyone who qq's about rogues is in blue's.
  • 0

#6 Magdain

Magdain
  • Premium
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 2,643
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:39 AM

Feel free to post your suggestions. There was already one ridiculously asinine post from somebody in here who doesn't understand this game, we could use a couple more.
  • 0

#7 chunkywaffle

chunkywaffle
  • Saakred
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 239
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:58 AM

Nerf vanish until it works.
  • 0
Blizzard throws darts at the rogue talent trees every patch, whatever they hit first gets a nerf.

#8 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:02 AM

Feel free to post your suggestions. There was already one ridiculously asinine post from somebody in here who doesn't understand this game, we could use a couple more.


the reason why i am asking rogues is because the rest of the wow community has no clue what rogue issues are. let us know what will make you guys balanced.
  • 0

#9 Loridan

Loridan
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Magtheridon
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 178
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:06 AM

I think they should give us back stacking wound poison because uh, that would be win. What should they nurf? Nothing, rogues by the nature of their class are control oriented. They already nurfed us by putting fear on the same cooldown as blind.

If you want to cry about a class, go to the pally forums or the druid forums. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong w/ arena atm. But, in short, if rogues are decent they're rigged because every player who is good at playing a rogue will play the shit out of it and embarrass all the baddies who think they're good at their class. Which is why skgaming has highly rated rogues all over it. If you want to complain, complain about a class that is broken and takes very little skill to play.

You wanna nurf wound poison's proc rate by 20%? Go for it, skarena will still be top 200 rogue majority. Nurf survivability? go for it, s5 all over again. You want to nurf vanish, oh... wait. The only thing they can do is fuck w/ prep some more and keep removing things from it's skill list.

Waiting for prep to not include any rogue talents.
  • 0

#10 Zanny

Zanny
  • Xanny
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Agamaggan
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 3,164
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:08 AM

down the procrate from would poison. the other nerfs already put them pretty much into place. as for wound: it used to be 30% proc 5 stack wich could be applied pretty quick if noone dispelled them. now its a 50% 1-stack. bringing it back down to 30% wouldnt hurt at all, and if it did, what the hell do they have shiv for. using shiv in the opening sequence wouldnt hurt too much for 8 energy.

its the only serious thing that should be nerfed on rogues. other than that they are completely fine.


Wound is the only means rogues have to deal any noticable damage to plate, because even when talented, rupture sucks at dmg / tick, especially when you need 4 piece t8 to make it crit. Compare that to feral druids rip tick critting for 2.5k.

No, nerfs that might make sense :

Evis damage nerfed, it crits for 8k on some people, thats stupid. IMO, change imp evis from 15% more damage to Eviscerate ignores 33 / 66 / 100% of your oponents armor, so it can be balanced to deal around 5k dmg tops at sub 20% targets, meaning 4k 5 pointers. If they made it deal the same damage to everyone, it would not be ridiculous on cloth.

Overkill makes mut extremely bursty, Id make it restore 5 energy whenever your specials critically hit. The other important part about it though is the in stealth ability cost reduction, which doesnt overpower the spec but makes sapping feasible. Id make murder reduce the energy cost of abilities used from stealth by 5 / 10 in addition to 4% dmg.

Vigor + 4 piece + glyph is too much energy. Rather than nerf this energy, make the talent vigor increase your energy generation by 20%, and make vitality in combat make bleeds crit or something. That way, the sustained damage remains but the burst from an opener is dropped.

Evasion reduced to 1 min 30 sec cd but make it last 8 seconds, and up the damn ranged damage miss to 50% as well as 50% dodge. I wont argue, evasion makes a rogue too unhittable for some classes (enhance, other rogues, feral) for too long, but at the same time its useless vs hunters and every other melee.

If they made shadowstep baseline (you know, like every other class has short cd gap closers, except rogues, see : blink, teleport, freedom, charge / intercept, death grip) they could make sprint a 1 min cd 5 sec speed boost of 80%. Hell, they could keep shs where it is and make sprint last like 6 - 7 seconds and make it a 45 sec cd that removes snares baseline and imp sprint can make it a freedom. Regardless, the mobility of rogues blows and if they nerf burst they need to buff mobility.

Vanish needs to not break by a pin drop, 1 second immunity after vanishing.

Wound poison should reduce healing by 30%. Similarly, all the other MS effects should be nerfed to 30% as well. They are too huge in game and make blizzard think rets 2 shotting offsets it fairly.

Move nerves of steel into sleight of hands spot in sub, and make sleight give feint a useful raid function deep in combat, and maybe be a +crit or dmg talent. If they do this, make nerves 10 / 20% instead of 15 / 30%, or make it reduce durations by 15 / 30%.

Make cold blood a 1 min cd, since warriors charge is a free cold blood, and dks get killing machine, etc. Too much crap that gives auto crits where the rogue ability is a 3 min cd. Just stupid.

Nerf slice and dice back to 30%. Its way too good in pvp for me at least, it ups your poison proc rate noticably and almost any mut i use under SnD procs both hands poisons with it. PVE would be fine with the vigor buff I think. Hell, maybe make snd 20% and the imp snd talent increases it by 5 / 10%, or 10 / 20%, but atm sitting on a priest with snd is retarded damage.

Id recommend a nerf to rogues by an armor buff. In BC, blizz put bonus armor on pvp gear. Now they dont. Thats really fucking stupid, and cloth / leather should have an extra 500 - 2k armor over the whole set because armor is a huge deal in arenas.

Otherwise, necessary nerfs... besides evis dealing some retarded damage in the proper conditions (note I said proper, on a dk without anything active it will crit with 5 cps below 20% for 2.5k some times), and snd making me a poison proc spambot... thats it really. The patch didnt buff any damage rogues deal besides making dual 1.8 speed daggers viable again with normalized poison procs.

But if they nerfed wounds proc rate, kiting would insue by druids and shamans, its barely balanced to being able to put crippling on a shaman and getting rid of the cleanse totem before it falls off, and thats a 50 / 50 chance. Druids, you can get a proc within 1 second of crippling or wound falling off, or save mut for ticks and get a proc to keep them from healing obscenely.

If blizz did an overall damage nerf though, to all classes, and a healing nerf, because both healing output and damage output are disproportionate to health and survivability, rogues would be directly hurt, so consider that as burst is reduced rogues become worse. Only reason last season was the way it was was because dks could 3 shot a rogue.
  • 0

#11 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:12 AM

I think they should give us back stacking wound poison because uh, that would be win. What should they nurf? Nothing, rogues by the nature of their class are control oriented. They already nurfed us by putting fear on the same cooldown as blind.

If you want to cry about a class, go to the pally forums or the druid forums. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong w/ arena atm. But, in short, if rogues are decent they're rigged because every player who is good at playing a rogue will play the shit out of it and embarrass all the baddies who think they're good at their class. Which is why skgaming has highly rated rogues all over it. If you want to complain, complain about a class that is broken and takes very little skill to play.

You wanna nurf wound poison's proc rate by 20%? Go for it, skarena will still be top 200 rogue majority. Nurf survivability? go for it, s5 all over again. You want to nurf vanish, oh... wait. The only thing they can do is fuck w/ prep some more and keep removing things from it's skill list.

Waiting for prep to not include any rogue talents.


if i wanted to play a qq post, i would have. no ones crying here. its the simple fact that rogues have the majority, but like you, state that they need no nerfs/changes/fixes to either balance out of the favor, or some sort of buff whether its trainable shs, survivability or what not.

ill check back later to see if someone put in an actual non-troll post.
  • 0

#12 Pitiless

Pitiless
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 1,430
  • Talents: Elemental 2/1/1/1/0/0
  • RBG: 2204

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:17 AM

We don't need nerfs. Go away.
  • 0

#13 Alabasta

Alabasta
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 145
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:18 AM

According to SK100: (wich everyone and their mom seems to refer to)

Death knights are above Rogues in 2v2 rep.
Warriors closing in every day, but keeping toned down by DK.

Warriors over double the rep. spread over all brackets.

Whats the problem?

Play your class to its full potential and you will realise that a rogue team has close to no threat on you.
  • 0

#14 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:21 AM

good post xanny, you bring up a few good issues, although i dont agree with the evasion thing (but that may be because i missed one too many shots during an evasion).
  • 0

#15 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:25 AM

According to SK100: (wich everyone and their mom seems to refer to)

Death knights are above Rogues in 2v2 rep.
Warriors closing in every day, but keeping toned down by DK.

Warriors over double the rep. spread over all brackets.

Whats the problem?

Play your class to its full potential and you will realise that a rogue team has close to no threat on you.


well im a hunter, anything destroys me. except maybe mages.

but i never once stated that dks and any other class for that matter were not a threat, are not overpowered, or what not.

what im trying to figure out is why 90% of the rogues state they need buffs, when facts, figures, and graphs all state otherwise.

if it makes you feel that you need buffs, then what needs to change? half of you guys are on a onetrack mind and want to keep everything youve gained. theres always a trade off as there should be.

if youve read the original then youd know that its not a omg nerf rogues post, its a what would make the public deem you more balanced than they deem you as now, because not a single one of them will think giving rogues survivability while doing nothing else to the class will be anywhere near balanced.
  • 0

#16 Nobody77

Nobody77
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Drak'thul
  • Reckoning / Abrechnung
  • Posts: 4
  • Talents:

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:27 AM

Unbiased, critical thinking.

what nerfs do rogues absolutely need to be or seen as balanced by the community?


Don't get me wrong here, I play rogue from day 1, I have seen up and downs, mostly its downs and still in last season I had almost no chances against many classes. Hunters with a retarded glyph, killing myself on "blue" druids in bear form thorns doing almost more dmg to me than me to the druid, being insta killed by reti palas in HoJ (still happens today with 600+resi, go figure).

+ the rogue trees aint "suited" for serious pvp, other than muti (few do play s-dance ok ok) and muti itself got hit with a nerf stick (20% more dmg on poisoned targets, down from 50% yet I agree that 50% was quite a bit), so Blizz put in a new glyph to kind of balance it out (-5energy less on muti)... Vile poisons talent that made your poisons being less dispelled (by 30%) now only counts for DoT poisons (ok I see the point, I could FoK all ppl around me and the wound still has a 50% chance to proc, mind numbing down to 30% cast speed, combine that with quite some classes got + haste talents, it got a lot of worse now.)

Lethality nerfed to "abilities that do not require stealth" so I guess Ambush was so deadly (yeah it was on lvl 60, but these days where all the abilities (BS/Amb) goes directly VS most of the time huge amount of resilience (I aint counting no blue-green BG hero Alt's).

Cheat death made un-usable... Ok ok now that we are getting close to the cheat death cap, it may work a little better (as in you last an additional 0,1sec. But seriously, the talent works like this..

0,00... proc
0,01 - 1,0 sec = dead

It was fine the way it was. (and I dont care what the QQ's here will say about how OP it was, try playing a rog in a 5v5 after your CoS is down with an elemental shaman on the other team, its an instant shot down of the rog with noone and nothing being able to save him). But I know, thats what the elem shams were always about and hell, I dont call for their nerf or anything, I myself play an elem alt, and know how it feels to have a rog on me 1v1, yet I speak of 5v5 where the elem isnt on him own. That where the cards turn big time.

TBH I really miss how earlier the fights were not so quick, offense was a lot weaker than now, when you could actually live thru a rog stun lock for a while. But now when the game moved to a state where life/death are a matter of Global CD's...

Seriously... Rogues are very strong "playing 1v1" always were one of the top classes. Sadly, this game and especially arena's aint about 1v1 and the more you go from 1v1 to lets say 5v5 the rogue seems to be losing its "OP'ness".

I myself wish for a 1v1 arena, god knows I would never go any other if a 1v1 existed.

Also keep in mind, a rogue is a plain melee dps that cant really do anything else but beat on someone, any other class can do that and in most fights better in PvE and will benefit the raid more than a rog. Druid can respec to imba heal, probably the most imba tank and still do melee dps/or go boomkin. War can be a tank or dps and most of the time outdps the rog (ofc depends what encounter), same for the DK (and yeah the DK will outdps the rog on most encounters and still is a viable tank, and how could I forget a retri, who can spec holy or prot to be imba for your raid... WTF do you people need rogues for anyway other than opening your lock boxes and doors? Cause for putting aggro on the Main Tank you have a hunter already.

I dunno, but if you nerf the rogues more in pvp, I seriously doubt there will be any fun left for me in the game. For the 1st time I feel the rogues are "kind of O.K." in arenas and dont let the rankings fool you, it wont stay that way, watch the healer druids + DK/wars climb up every day.

If anything then a freaking unkillable prehoted Tree druid needs a f'ing nerf or at least make my sap actually sap them in tree form, cause as off now the druid can faceroll my dmg till I die on thorns. Fucking insane. Or EyE for EyE with retri aura and thorns? Now that is something a freaking genius came up with at the Blizz HQ.

Just my 2cp's

If I could wish for something, I would wish for some kind of +1-2% of my hp's heal proc (talent based or enchants) seeing almost every other class have a chance to heal themselves for that or a bigger amount, I feel kind of forgoten) OR my anes. poisons having a chance to dispell buffs (like thorns f.e.)
  • 0

#17 Loridan

Loridan
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Magtheridon
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 178
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:30 AM

I agree w/ a lot of what you said Xanny. But then a majority of it while interesting and well thought out would be a major buff and cleary rogues don't need a buff I like the evis idea but that makes envenom obsolete, not that it isn't already.

The point made about reducing our survivability and increasing our mobility is a valid and interesting one also. I'd like to see all of the functions like death grip removed, as an ability it's far too commanding against almost any melee. Ultimately though every class has an ability that makes their opponent obsolete for a period. I've always viewed our stuns as that utility, in which is certainly included gouge.

As for the vanish thing, I don't like it the way it is. Vanish has been bugged by it's nature since conception. We play around it and blizz buffs classes to play against it.

On an unrelated note, players shouldn't be able to control their pets while they're under an effect that causes the loss of control of your character.

Nurf this :druid::deathknight: :paladin::priest: :druid::druid::druid::druid::druid::druid::druid::druid:
  • 0

#18 Zanny

Zanny
  • Xanny
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Agamaggan
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 3,164
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:31 AM

Heh, remove the crappy vile poisons dispell resist shit and make it heal you for 8 / 16 / 25% of your posion damage.
  • 0

#19 Atare

Atare
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Jaedenar
  • Misery
  • Posts: 149
  • Talents: Survival 1/0/1/2/1/0

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:42 AM

sap on 2min cooldown
blind back as poison
wound 20% debuff
crippling 50%
cheapshot 2sec duration
kidney 0.2sec per combo point
vanish doesn't remove snares anymore

Happy? Now get lost..
  • 0

#20 sarinn

sarinn
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 166
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:46 AM

sap on 2min cooldown
blind back as poison
wound 20% debuff
crippling 50%
cheapshot 2sec duration
kidney 0.2sec per combo point
vanish doesn't remove snares anymore

Happy? Now get lost..


now that doesnt help anything
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<