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[Blizzard] Let's help blizzard with Ret.


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#1 Vander

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:56 AM

GC asked the paladin community to come up with ideas how to enhance the ret experience and go away from the 'push when lit' playstyle.

Would be nice to have a thread thinktank where we can come up with ideas we can later pass on to the devs.

I'll start:

Re-implement exorcism.

Exorcism:

30 yard range, 10% of base mana
Places a DoT on the target enemy which deals 2000 holy dmg over 15 seconds (scaling like it does now), the dmg per tick will increase near the ending (like curse of agony).

Change to crusaderstrike:
Additionally to the normal ability Crusaderstrike will absorb your exorcism effect on the target to put the absolution effect on the target

The possibilities behind this change are endless; this 'absolution' thing could be anything or change in effect in relation to what spell is used.

Please mind these are just ideas. And I kinly ask you not to turn this thread into a dung throwing competition.
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#2 Thassel

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:11 AM

First exorcism idea was a great one imo, didn't like the crusader strike one tohugh
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#3 Vander

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:17 AM

How about this:

Redesign Righteous vengeance:

instead of adding a debuff on a CS / DS / Judgement crits

it will now add a debuff whenever u use any of thsoe spells while exorcism is on the target
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#4 Issachar

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:19 AM

Blizzard would have to completely redesign this entire class in order to add depth to it.

EDIT: By redesign I mean give us a system of energy management. As ret I have limitless mana now, making it a "push when lit" game. If I had energy or rage, or limited mana as S3/S4 ret had, I might actually be able to think while playing. I lost many games in S5 by overthinking the game, and felt punished for having done well as ret in S3/S4. Casting cleanse was a misplay 90% of the time, etc. All I had to do was rush forward and press Crusader/DS/Judge and hope they fell over.

A complete redesign that forces us to manage energy is the only way to make this class have depth as ret.
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#5 Lequezalier

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:31 AM

I think we should have an interrupt effect, which silences for 2secs and for 5secs if you hit it into a cast, without gcd.

Sanctity of the battle could be removed (for those who dont know it gives 15% more damage to crusader strike), and lets say 5% dmg off from judgement/divinestorm and crusader strike, but there would be an debuff on crusader strike which stacks up to 3times increasing damage done by paladins melee abilities by 8% each time, stack goes off when you use divine storm at anytime/crusader strike when it reaches 3 stacks.


JoJ should decrease movementspeed stacking up to 3times, lasts same amount as now and still dispellable. (15%/30%/45%) (only judgements increase the stack ofc)

Just an ideas..
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#6 tikk

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:38 AM

^^to the above i believe hes posting this thread in response to the blue that said they wanted to redesign the way ret does damage instead of watching cds and useing them when they're up, although his idea in full length wasnt really what i believe blizz had in mind(sounded like he just wanted a pvp buff if the idea was carried out in length:P)

descent idea i dont think adding a snare in would pls to many other ppl where the only way they can kill ret is by kiting :P but the exorcism dot i thought was a good idea could even have the dot be bigger if some of the other abilities were toned down and have it kinda work like a reverse swiftmend with one of the other abilities have one of em trigger it for a controled burst.

if u just add exorcism as a short dot though its still doing the same thing u open with it and blow through ur cds blizz wants u to have to manage ur cds in such a way that will indicate this player is doing this rotation and his dmg shows that he the skill involved instead of a 4 button dps wonder.
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#7 Neb

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:43 AM

As Tikk rightfully said, whatever the new idea is, it needs be something you just don't put in your button smashing rotation. Let's face it, ret pallies judge, CS, DS, and pray for crits. That's not the players fault, just how the class is built. They really need to add something unique that could raise the skill cap so there truly could be a difference between Retards and skilled paladins.
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I'm full of fail

#8 Guest_Wickler_*

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:43 AM

Well you gotta get rid of some of the Damage if you want something else then it's current state.
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#9 aeff

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:45 AM

Lower Dmg more Support
Shit PVE GRRRR
QQ
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#10 Missekatten

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:56 AM

Lower Dmg more Support
Shit PVE GRRRR
QQ


Retri paladins dont need more support, they got their *** full of it.
They need a change to their skills so you have to think about your dps rotation, thats all tbh.
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The sentence below is false.
The sentence above is true.

#11 Vander

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:53 AM

HOW about this!!

Exorcism in the dot form i explained in OP

make it SHARE CD with divine storm and lower it to 10 seconds

give CS an added utility debuff when used on exorcised target

PVP DMG LOWERED
ADDED UTILITY

surely noone can complain about THAT ?
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#12 Duckers

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:03 PM

Cleaned up the thread a little.

If you guys feel like being drooling idiots, press the back button instead of the reply one. Trolling isn't going to get you anywhere.
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#13 Qwey

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:07 PM

Cleaned up the thread a little.

If you guys feel like being drooling idiots, press the back button instead of the reply one. Trolling isn't going to get you anywhere.


Can you not see if replies got deleted now?

Anyways, I think the biggest thing to focus on is damage needs to stay the same or get worse when implementing more utility, otherwise ret would just get ridiculous. I like the exorcism as a dot change, and it sharing a CD with divine storm is an interesting idea. I don't really see how those changes would make ret playstyle any different though, you still would just be using things on CD.
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:3

#14 Lysanne

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:12 PM

Some form of buildup mechanic on specific abilities - that could perhaps allow another ability to be used but then reset it to zero... (See combo points?) Thats still a lot of press X when Y lits up though. In PvP that would at least be predictable by a decent opponent. What could said ability be? A CC of some sort, a spell interrupt, a silence, an ability that temporarily makes autoswings deal holy damage? You maybe even get choose between one of them say... you could either choose to use your 'combo points' to interrupt that heal or to improve your damage. Heck, maybe even mobility increase/charge could be an option. (OH SHIT ITS BACK)
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#15 Vander

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:22 PM

Cleaned up the thread a little.

If you guys feel like being drooling idiots, press the back button instead of the reply one. Trolling isn't going to get you anywhere.


Thanks alot Duckers :>
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#16 Grisham

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:29 PM

The whole problem resides in one thing: mana bar

Mana is not a dynamic ressource by its very nature so it doesn't help creating a dynamic melee class...

Just make CS a 5s silence when someone is casting (so you pretty much will never use it on a DPS cycle but keep it for interrupting) and bring back Exo - pb solved.

Or make something worthy out of SoC - it does a shit damage but if it provides nice utility people will choose it instead of SoB.

anything more detailed (and wellcome) will take MONTHS and I'll rather not be gimped during that time...
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#17 Vander

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:33 PM

The whole problem resides in one thing: mana bar

Mana is not a dynamic ressource by its very nature so it doesn't help creating a dynamic melee class...

Just make CS a 5s silence when someone is casting (so you pretty much will never use it on a DPS cycle but keep it for interrupting) and bring back Exo - pb solved.

Or make something worthy out of SoC - it does a shit damage but if it provides nice utility people will choose it instead of SoB.

anything more detailed (and wellcome) will take MONTHS and I'll rather not be gimped during that time...


Well hunters are a farily dynamic class, but thats just because they are overloaded with utility and micromanagment. Though their DPS cycles pretty much consist of puching CD's when theyre up.

Something can be done with SoC, agreed.
Maybe have SoC procs build up debuffs that slow movement or casting, and they get spend when CS is used. BUT the debuffs also decrease CS dmg.

Something like that.
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#18 N3M0WEN

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:45 PM

one idea could be to make Exorcism(dot form) + Crusader strike kinda like warlock's immolate + conflag. I would say for it to go something like this.

Ret Applies exorcism to target.
Crusader Strike does damage + extra damage based on the amount of time exorcism was on the target.

Even if this sounds very bursty, as long as the exorcism is cleansable AND the "conflag effect" (so to speak) is strong only towards the end of the exorcism duration, i think it would be fair due to the fact that it gives other players time to adjust and anticipate an incoming burst.

I.E
Rogue sees exorcism on himself
Reaction? Asks for dispel from priest, or pop CoS near end of duration.

or

Mage/Rogue (zomg no cleanses dispels)
Mage gets exorcism, Iceblock is on CD.
Mage anticipates incoming Crusader strike with the Exorcism burst and Polymorphs Ret pally before incoming burst and lets exorcism duration run out.

OR

Warrior receives exorcism DOT
Warrior anticipates incoming "conflag effect" and pops sword + board and spell reflect at proper time.
Reflects "conflag effect" to ret paladin

I feel like something to this effect would be more exciting for ret pallies. Not only that, it would also limit this "conflag effect" to ret paladins only because of the fact that crusader strike is needed. Or maybe not even crusader strike, Divine storm could pop the "conflag effect".

These are just some ideas that popped into my head, i'll post more if i think of something

(if all of this was already said somewhere and i didnt notice, SORRY LOL)





EDIT: I change the idea of having CS triggering the "conflag effect" and instead have DS trigger it due to the fact that it would set up more possible consequences for choosing to burst it down on a target.

I.E.
Rogue Ret VS Priest Rogue
Priest no trink + Rogue reaching end of exorcism DOT duration.
Rogue Blinds Priest (cus no trink)
Rogue runs to blinded priest and baits the DS to get priest out of Blind
Ret Pops Divine storm in attempt to GiB rogue
Priest gets out of blind due to the Divine Storm and heals rogue up

If this was CS there would have been no consequence for bursting the rogue down.
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#19 Duckers

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:54 PM

Can you not see if replies got deleted now?

Nah, if it's a couple pages worth of shit they just get moved to mod forums then deleted, so it doesn't spam the thread with 20 lines of "This message has been deleted by: So and so."
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#20 Zyrstoren

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:06 PM

If you want this to be a think-tank and not taken as a massive joke you have to come to the realization that the last thing rets need is the ability to do more damage.

CC:
Repentance
HoJ

Utility:
Freedom(that breaks stuns)
dispels
Hands
Seals

Rets literally have the best utility in the game right now.

Damage:
Some of the strongest burst in the game(somewhat uncontrollable.

Give rets a pummel
Tone down their burst damage(hopefully significantly)
Give them better sustained damage

I played around doing some 3s with some IRL friends rogue/ret/restodruid and it was insane how much damage the paladin on my team was doing. He's still wearing S3 gear, with maybe 2 enchants total and 3g gems. He kills geared healers in HoJ's if everything crits. No lie I'm recording our matches tomorrow to post a video sometime later in the week to show how dumb his damage can be in level 70 pvp gear. He did more damage in a few games than the other teams warlock and rogue who got glad on the 3s team we played them on, as well as doing more damage than a rogue and a mage from a 2k rated RMP? Like I said he's in level 70 unenchanted gear.
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