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Feral Druid Arena Is Finished


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#1 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:17 PM

Feral is useless in PVP now, utterly useless.

I'm going to go over the nerfs quickly and explain why.

Burst Nerf:
Feral Druids had decent burst when fighting low rated scrub teams, but once you get to the higher bracket the teams know what they are doing and can mitigate almost all of your burst, so you have to play defensively to prosper. Any good Feral Druid knows this.

Maim Nerf:
There are 2 totally different, INCORRECT, perspectives.

1. Maim was previously used to burst targets down in Maim and because it was an incapacitate, many classes could not escape it, making it overpowered for PVP Burst.

This is wrong because: When you are fighting undergeared underskilled opponents, yes, you can Maim them and hit them with a shred or two before it breaks and either they are too retarded to survive or their healers are too retarded to avoid CC. But once again (as mentioned above) when you get higher rating your opponents play smarter and can survive a lot of damage, mitigate a lot when needed, and their healer or other DPS supplements them in time of need.

2. Maim previously broke too easily on damage once you get decent gear because you are hitting a lot harder, Maim lasted a maximum of 2 seconds if you were attacking them during.

This is true partially, because yes it would break VERY fast. But if you were honestly using your Maim and then immediately spamming shred, you should probably log off, delete your character, and cancel your account, because you were not playing properly. The proper use is as an interrupt and/or CC and if you wanted to burst them, wait till only 2 seconds were left on it and get a couple big hits in. (But the main usage should be as a defensive mechanism to save either yourself or your partner)

With maim the way it is now, almost every class can get out of it. And building up 5 combo points on a druid is not an easy task, especially when you have to keep Savage Roar up or you do virtually no damage whatsoever.

Survivability Nerf

Most idiots complain about the 10% hp loss in bear form and the armor nerfs. The Primal Tenacity Talent working in bear form was OP. Rogues had no chance and I totally agree with the change. Honestly bear form survivability isn't that nerfed at all, but people underestimate how much druids used maim when they were about to get bursted and then went into bear, avoiding a lot of the brunt. Now that is impossible because bash and maim share DR. That is what is killing bear form surviability The Savage Defense ability is a joke and does nothing against most classes.

Rend and Tear FB Nerf

Haha this nerf is just rediculous. Now our ferocious bite is a RNG move. With about 40% passive crit as a druid (about 28% against resilienced targets) + 50% from talent = 78%. Pretty reliable, which is what you need in high rated arena. You need to be able to RELY on abilities to work properly, and if FB doesn't crit, it is a complete energy dump and waste of all your combo points.
This nerf is just dumb and makes FB useless and too risky to ever use anymore. Thanks blizz.

Pounce DR Nerf

I'm okay with this, and anyone that not is just being unrealistic. Why would pounce and cheapshot NOT share DR? That's just silly.


Shred Glyph Nerf and Primal Gore *Buff*

Just plain stupid. Rip is not as good as it was projected. In PVE yea it works great, crits hard. In PVP It is stupid stupid stupid. You wanna know why? High resilience rating mitigates it so much.

13% Less chance to be crit by Rip AND 13% Less damage taken from Rip.
If it DOES crit - 25% Less damage taken... bottom line is, rip crits are only adding an extra 500ish dmg 30% of the time at best... That is terrible

So a crit is about 500 more than the REGULAR on someone with resilience. Useless.


FYI
3.0 Feral druids were only
3.5% of the 2v2 2k+ Arena.
2.0% of the 3v3 2k+ Arena
0.5% of the 5v5 2k+ Arena

Clearly needed PVP nerfs right?
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#2 Viia

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:05 PM

You confused the hell out of me. First you say some of the druid nerfs weren't nerfs, and then complain about druids being nerfed?

Burst Nerf: Feral druids were good playing defensively and bursting at an opportune time. This is a real nerf and it will have an effect on druids.

Maim Nerf:
1. Maim *STILL* can't be blinked or freedomed out of and is more reliable now duration-wise. This may be hotfixed at some point.

2. Maim was used to CC and peel, yes. It was ALSO used to DPS. A lot of the time I would maim/strait DPS if I didn't need it for peels. It wasn't always possible to maim/cyclone/dps while maim is still up, or worth it if there was a chance you could be caught in TNT, ghoul stun, etc.

Survivability Nerf: What you're saying here I think (again, quite confusing) is that the survivability nerf is that you can't maim->bear? You can still do that. You can't maim->bear->bash for massive mitigation, but you can still maim->bear (although that seems counter-productive and a waste of maim time) and you can still maim->bear->bash partner or maim->cyclone. The primal tenacity talent not working in bear is a huge nerf, obviously... you're saying it was a needed one, and complaining about something else. Right? Savage Defense is good against classes that melee you.

Rend and Tear Nerf: 75% plus is still something I would consider pretty reliable. Not to mention they didn't nerf FB damage.

Shred Glyph Nerf / Rip: It is double dipping on resil, but it still does a lot of damage. I don't see what the heck this has to do with the shred glyph nerf though. Shouldn't that be part of your "burst nerf" section at the top which you basically say doesn't really matter because the reason you're good is playing defensively and any good feral druid knows this?

What a waste of brain power trying to figure out this post.
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#3 Sluggin

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:28 PM

Isehummer, I agree completely with your arguments.

Which is why im now fully geared for resto. (grinded about 150k honor in the last 2 weeks)
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#4 Miirkat

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:31 PM

As someone explained it to me, Mutilate never really changed, but once they removed the position requirement, Mutilate became a good.

Higher brackets, people learned that if you sit on a Feral, you shit on his DPS. Even if their healer could free cast and take advantage of Nurturing Instincts, crippling our ability to burst was the key way in destroying us.

Taking part in 3.5% of the 2v2 2k+ Arena.
Don't think we'll see our numbers hit this in Season 6 if no changes are made to our class.

Isehummer, I agree completely with your arguments.

Which is why im now fully geared for resto. (grinded about 200k honor in the last 2 weeks)

Doing the same. Can't hurt to be prepared if our initial perceptions become true.
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#5 Chirality

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:37 PM

Ghostcrawler very explicitly stated that dot-crits do not "double dip" like that. Your argument about Rip is completely incorrect.

Say it does 1.5k damage per tick against someone with 13% resil-reduction.

Regular Tick: 1.5k*0.87 = 1.305k
Chance to crit: (crit_chance - 26% from resilience)
Damage on Crit: 1.5k*2*(0.74)= 2.22k

Edit: See these posts http://blue.mmo-cham...p-934-nerf.html)
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#6 Divineforce

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:44 PM

SHRED 4k SHRED 4k FEROCIOUS BITE 8K...
what are you talking about our burst sucks bro.
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#7 Sherman454

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:49 PM

Play defensively and mitigate that 10k ferocious bite.
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#8 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:55 PM

You confused the hell out of me. First you say some of the druid nerfs weren't nerfs, and then complain about druids being nerfed?

Burst Nerf: Feral druids were good playing defensively and bursting at an opportune time. This is a real nerf and it will have an effect on druids.

Maim Nerf:
1. Maim *STILL* can't be blinked or freedomed out of and is more reliable now duration-wise. This may be hotfixed at some point.

2. Maim was used to CC and peel, yes. It was ALSO used to DPS. A lot of the time I would maim/strait DPS if I didn't need it for peels. It wasn't always possible to maim/cyclone/dps while maim is still up, or worth it if there was a chance you could be caught in TNT, ghoul stun, etc.

Survivability Nerf: What you're saying here I think (again, quite confusing) is that the survivability nerf is that you can't maim->bear? You can still do that. You can't maim->bear->bash for massive mitigation, but you can still maim->bear (although that seems counter-productive and a waste of maim time) and you can still maim->bear->bash partner or maim->cyclone. The primal tenacity talent not working in bear is a huge nerf, obviously... you're saying it was a needed one, and complaining about something else. Right? Savage Defense is good against classes that melee you.

Rend and Tear Nerf: 75% plus is still something I would consider pretty reliable. Not to mention they didn't nerf FB damage.

Shred Glyph Nerf / Rip: It is double dipping on resil, but it still does a lot of damage. I don't see what the heck this has to do with the shred glyph nerf though. Shouldn't that be part of your "burst nerf" section at the top which you basically say doesn't really matter because the reason you're good is playing defensively and any good feral druid knows this?

What a waste of brain power trying to figure out this post.


Where do I begin with this reply you made... First of all, 20% less damage while target is stunned.. So no, you CANNOT burst with maim anymore... not on plate at least. Secondly, LOL, and this is the funny one... On Ferocious Bite (rend and tear) .. My point I made was that 50% is what it USED TO BE.... ITS 25% LESS THAN THAT NOW... Its 25% now with Rend and Tear That is NOT reliable. Wow where did u get your numbers?

Primal Tenacity is NOT necessary in Bear... It really isnt.. it was nerfed for a reason... with Protector of th pack 12% reduced. and 60% from physical and u get stunned 30% less... you take almost 0 dmg from rogue mage teams... or anything that stuns... It needed a nerf.. and NO Savage Defense is NOT good... It only blocks 1 attack and all classes have tons of White Swings (which eat it every time) And also most the time you are going in bear you are trying to survive a class that ISNT A ROGUE. so you arent going to be able to hit them because you are being Kited.

God dude... your reply makes me wanna go on a Newb Feral Druid killing spree
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#9 Aliandren

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:55 PM

As someone explained it to me, Mutilate never really changed, but once they removed the position requirement, Mutilate became a good.

Higher brackets, people learned that if you sit on a Feral, you shit on his DPS. Even if their healer could free cast and take advantage of Nurturing Instincts, crippling our ability to burst was the key way in destroying us.

Taking part in 3.5% of the 2v2 2k+ Arena.
Don't think we'll see our numbers hit this in Season 6 if no changes are made to our class.


Doing the same. Can't hurt to be prepared if our initial perceptions become true.




That's why the majority of kills at higher level arena came from a repent on DPS target to allow dps, then HoJ on a Heal at < 50% for the kill. Unfortunately the 37/0/34 build got nerfed so 34/0/37 will have to sub in, which has a good deal less burst healing. JotW buff evens out the mana regeneration, but defensive Holy Shock crit to instant flash is a lot better quick healing than holy shock to judge crit to instant flash heal.

Nerfs to other classes (esp hunter/shadowforst dk) may help out. Rogue priest is going to be a nightmare though.

mangle build would solve a lot of problems if it were a viable build.
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#10 Miirkat

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:58 PM

OMG LOOLOLOLOL Please delete your druid. OMG... You are so off...
Where do I begin with this reply you made... First of all, 20% less damage while target is stunned.. So no, you CANNOT burst with maim anymore... not on plate at least. Secondly, LOL, and this is the funny one... On Ferocious Bite (rend and tear) .. My point I made was that 75% is what it USED TO BE.... ITS 25% LESS THAN THAT NOW... LOL DO YOU EVEN PLAY DRUID? IM CONFUSED. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS ALREADY... Its 50% now with Rend and Tear ... 28%ish with passive crit and 25% with talents. ..... That is NOT reliable. GOD

Primal Tenacity is NOT necessary in Bear... It really isnt.. it was nerfed for a reason... with Protector of th pack 12% reduced. and 60% from physical and u get stunned 30% less... you take almost 0 dmg from rogue mage teams... or anything that stuns... It needed a nerf.. and NO Savage Defense is NOT good... It only blocks 1 attack and all classes have tons of White Swings (which eat it every time) And also most the time you are going in bear you are trying to survive a class that ISNT A ROGUE. so you arent going to be able to hit them because you are being Kited.

God dude... your reply makes me wanna go on a Newb Feral Druid killing spree

I don't even need to read this. Based on the amount of caps, periods, etc, I'm assuming troll thread/post is troll.
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#11 kickshaw32

kickshaw32

Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:58 PM

Ghostcrawler very explicitly stated that dot-crits do not "double dip" like that. Your argument about Rip is completely incorrect.

Say it does 1.5k damage per tick against someone with 13% resil-reduction.

Regular Tick: 1.5k*0.87 = 1.305k
Chance to crit: (crit_chance - 26% from resilience)
Damage on Crit: 1.5k*2*(0.74)= 2.22k

Edit: See these posts http://blue.mmo-cham...p-934-nerf.html)


Calm down. You are right... Its not double dipping but it is still insane how bad it is... 13% if it DOESNT crit and 25% if it DOES crit... It adds a grand total of around 500 dmg to a crit... Thats terrible
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#12 Xeroh

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:59 PM

OMG LOOLOLOLOL Please delete your druid. OMG... You are so off...
Where do I begin with this reply you made... First of all, 20% less damage while target is stunned.. So no, you CANNOT burst with maim anymore... not on plate at least. Secondly, LOL, and this is the funny one... On Ferocious Bite (rend and tear) .. My point I made was that 75% is what it USED TO BE.... ITS 25% LESS THAN THAT NOW... LOL DO YOU EVEN PLAY DRUID? IM CONFUSED. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS ALREADY... Its 50% now with Rend and Tear ... 28%ish with passive crit and 25% with talents. ..... That is NOT reliable. GOD

Primal Tenacity is NOT necessary in Bear... It really isnt.. it was nerfed for a reason... with Protector of th pack 12% reduced. and 60% from physical and u get stunned 30% less... you take almost 0 dmg from rogue mage teams... or anything that stuns... It needed a nerf.. and NO Savage Defense is NOT good... It only blocks 1 attack and all classes have tons of White Swings (which eat it every time) And also most the time you are going in bear you are trying to survive a class that ISNT A ROGUE. so you arent going to be able to hit them because you are being Kited.

God dude... your reply makes me wanna go on a Newb Feral Druid killing spree


"I think im good because i got 2.2k in 2s"
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#13 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:00 PM

I don't even need to read this. Based on the amount of caps, periods, etc, I'm assuming troll thread/post is troll.


Uh.. Im sorry I was extremely surprised that a druid posting in arena junkies is off by over 20% on a critical strike chance of one of his MAIN abilities... Doesnt that shock you? What has this game come to?
I mean thats bad... like... BAD... WTB character delete
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#14 Revelstoke

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:03 PM

feral is no where near dead


have some god damn perspective before coming on the boards and making a rant paper ffs
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#15 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:04 PM

"I think im good because i got 2.2k in 2s"


Thanks but I was at 2.2k when I had blues on. Rating tanked at the end of season due to internet problems with my australian partner. look at my highest achieved
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#16 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:05 PM

feral is no where near dead


have some god damn perspective before coming on the boards and making a rant paper ffs


Okay... Re post this with Numbers and Logic.. I want to believe you. Im not Ranting.. I love feral druid and thats why Im so upset. because it IS dead. All logic says it will be NOTHING in S6, wheres it was ALMOST nothing in S5... Repost and bring up Logical points and I will listen. But dont be retarded like the first reply which layed numbers on the table that didn't add up.
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#17 Rice

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:10 PM

Are you really complaining bout rend and tear nerf? You think 80% crit on your biggest damaging attack on resilience targets is remotely fair?

I'm quite boggled. Maybe you need to look at the bigger picture. Here's a tip: auto-crit talents are imbalanced for arena. Killing machine. Old elemental mastery. I can go on.

Maim got a much-deserved nerf. A 7 second incapacitate on such a short cooldown was over the top, even when it did break on 20% of their hp. Going maim->bash->cyclone kept people locked out for stupid amounts of time.

I used to play a druid, and these nerfs were very much needed. Feral will still do great in the hands of an amazing player (which you don't seem to be). A spec doesn't have to have high representation to warrant nerfs. Take arcane mages for example. They were never very high on the list, but they sure as hell needed some huge nerfs.
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#18 Aliandren

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:11 PM

SHRED 4k SHRED 4k FEROCIOUS BITE 8K...
what are you talking about our burst sucks bro.


The irony of the attempt to nerf shred burst is that they didn't relaly do so, assuming you can keep SR up.

OLD SR - (((1.4 * 7000 / 14)+55) * 1.1 * 2.25 + 742 + 203) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 4389

NEW SR - ((7000 / 14)+55) * 1.1 * 2.25 + 742 + 203) * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.33 = 4810

So, isntead of getting 20% more shred damage while target is stunned, we get 10% more than (non-stunned) shred damage of 3.0.9 all the time (assuming both cases had SR up). Granted, your best case dps is going to be 10% lower, but you will be doing 10% more all the rest of the time. High burst more often than slightly higher burst is fine by me.

I just can't get past the Maim duration, makes locking someone down or squeezing in a shred a lot harder.
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#19 Chirality

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:13 PM

Calm down. You are right... Its not double dipping but it is still insane how bad it is... 13% if it DOESNT crit and 25% if it DOES crit... It adds a grand total of around 500 dmg to a crit... Thats terrible


For sure it's not a massive dps increase. Feral (PvP) is the classic case of a PvP spec getting screwed because the PvE spec is overpowered, though.

At one point on the PTR, Feral Druids (with mangle-bots) were out-dpsing literally every other class/spec in the game (see: simulationcraft). Nerfs resulted--and ironically hit Feral PvP worse than they hit Feral PvE, because the developers are cowards and think that Feral burst was overpowered (it wasn't).

We'll see. Ret, by the way, is the opposite case right now. "People" (e.g., forum trolls complaining about getting bursted with 400 resil on the Damage Dealing Forum) think that Ret is "out of control", but any nerf to Ret PvP they could plausibly make would ruin he spec for PvE.

I really don't envy the developers, to be honest.
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#20 kickshaw32

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:18 PM

Are you really complaining bout rend and tear nerf? You think 80% crit on your biggest damaging attack on resilience targets is remotely fair?

I'm quite boggled. Maybe you need to look at the bigger picture. Here's a tip: auto-crit talents are imbalanced for arena. Killing machine. Old elemental mastery. I can go on.

Maim got a much-deserved nerf. A 7 second incapacitate on such a short cooldown was over the top, even when it did break on 20% of their hp. Going maim->bash->cyclone kept people locked out for stupid amounts of time.

I used to play a druid, and these nerfs were very much needed. Feral will still do great in the hands of an amazing player (which you don't seem to be). A spec doesn't have to have high representation to warrant nerfs. Take arcane mages for example. They were never very high on the list, but they sure as hell needed some huge nerfs.


Lol arcane mages werent high on the list? What rock were you living under holy shit. Also, Link me a video of someone Maiming someone for 7 seconds and it not breaking till they were at 20%... I dare you.. I double dare you.
Lastly, My gear was terrible, and still is subpar and I got to 2400 on the battlegroup with the most hunter priest and hunter shaman teams past 2k (feral druids nightmares).. Do your homework before you open your mouth child.
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