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Correct PvP ArP info for Warrs


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#41 Deleos

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 01:49 PM

when you add self buff ArP (bstance macespec gear) + 5x sunder, is that additive or multiplicative?


Read the whole thread. You will get your answer.
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#42 Dabi

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:50 PM

According to all the testing done on the heroic dummy, ArP consistently gives exactly 81% of what it should to that target.


An answer of ghostcrawler that comfirms this:

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.


Btw, there is an even better alternative to grim toll (Thorim 10man hard-mode):

http://static.mmo-ch...4_17_9767_6.jpg
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#43 Wexlike

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:28 AM

Official Blizzard Quote:

Okay, here is a farily technical explanation we put together for how armor pen works.

We didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against low armor targets, like it had been in BC. We also didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against high armor targets.

So, we decided on a system where there is a cap on how much armor the Armor Penetration Rating can be applied to. So, the first X armor on the target is reduced by the percentage listed in the Armor Penetration Rating tooltip, and all armor past that X is unaffected. Another way of understanding that is we multiply the percentage in the tooltip times the minimum of the two values: the cap, and the amount of armor on the target after all other modifiers.

Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):

If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel​+4.5*85*(targetlevel-​59);

For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.

A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=832​0.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).

These equations should help you be able to test and verify that Armor Penetration Rating is working correctly and as we designed. The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key.

Please be sure to test without any other effects which modify the armor calculation (Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, Mace Specialization, etc.) as they may involve other systems that add additional complexity to the calculation.


http://forums.worldo...&sid=1&pageNo=4
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#44 Dabi

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:32 PM

that means, 100% armor ignore equals:

- 50% more damage on a paladin (23000 armor)
- 50% more damage on a shaman (16000 armor)
- 33% more damage on a priest (5000 armor)

The cap is 50% more damage done (reached at around 7700 armor)
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#45 Craton

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:44 PM

At what armor A will Armor Pen start losing effect?

A >= (A + 15232.5)/3
3A >= A + 15232.5
2A >= 15232.5
A >= 7616.25

I think.

So when Armor is 7615.25 or more ArP starts losing effectiveness. FWIW I believe that means bear/chicken/tree druid, mail+shield, or plate. Nonshield hunters are somewhere in the 7ks I think.
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#46 Dabi

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:15 PM

At what armor A will Armor Pen start losing effect?

A >= (A + 15232.5)/3
3A >= A + 15232.5
2A >= 15232.5
A >= 7616.25

I think.

So when Armor is 7615.25 or more ArP starts losing effectiveness. FWIW I believe that means bear/chicken/tree druid, mail+shield, or plate. Nonshield hunters are somewhere in the 7ks I think.


no, armor penetration is capped at percent damage done. That means it is exactly as effective on a paladin as it is on a hunter. It is less effective if the target has lower armor than 7700.

Some further math comparing ap with arp: (used betrayer of humanity, noncrit only)
(priest 5000 armor, paladin 23000 armor)

priest, 100% arp (0 armor), 4000 ap -> 1727 dmg / hit
priest, 10% arp (4500 armor), 6300 ap -> 1766 dmg / hit

priest, 50% arp (no arp trinket proc, 2500 armor), 4000 ap -> 1483.7 dmg / hit
priest, 10% arp (no ap trinket proc, 4500 armor), 5100 ap -> 1540.6 dmg / hit

paladin, 100% arp (10256 armor), 4000 ap -> 1032 dmg / hit
paladin, 10% arp (21726 armor), 6300 ap -> 943 dmg / hit

paladin, 50% arp (no proc, 16627 armor), 4000 ap -> 826 dmg / hit
paladin, 10% arp (no ap trinket proc, 21726 armor), 5100 ap -> 823 dmg / hit

AP and ARP seem to be pretty good balanced.
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#47 Wexlike

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:24 PM

well but rend and deep wounds dont scale with arp :/
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#48 Dabi

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:20 PM

well but rend and deep wounds dont scale with arp :/


looks like strength / ap is still slightly better ?
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#49 Formose

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:06 PM

So I guess my 27% ArP set goes to waste :(

How about Mace vs Axe? Does this mean axe is definitively better? I just got the Ulduar mace I don't want it to go to waste.

What are those "additional complexities" that come into play for Mace/b stance? Hopefully that doesn't mean they get applied after the reduction from gear.
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#50 ProudToBeAWoman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:17 PM

This greatly depreciates the value of our 50% GT procs doesn't it...

And I thought I had a slight advantage with that being my only pve piece >_>
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#51 Serida

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:35 PM

i think full str gear with gt proc should still be good. theres just less need to stack mace, battle stance, pen gear and gt.
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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:52 PM

Have they fixed armor penetration yet?
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#53 CJ2KX

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 09:24 PM

At what armor A will Armor Pen start losing effect?

A >= (A + 15232.5)/3
3A >= A + 15232.5
2A >= 15232.5
A >= 7616.25

I think.

So when Armor is 7615.25 or more ArP starts losing effectiveness. FWIW I believe that means bear/chicken/tree druid, mail+shield, or plate. Nonshield hunters are somewhere in the 7ks I think.


I'm pretty sure Craton has it right. Armor less than or equal to 7,615.25 receives the full effect from armor penetration. Beyond 7,615.25 the "(armor + C)/3" formula produces a value that is less than the target's armor, thus becoming the cap and reducing armor penetration's effectiveness against high armor targets as Blizzard stated.

So against a paladin for example, with 21,500 armor:

Cap = (21,500 + 15,232.5)/3
Cap = 12,244.16

This means your armor penetration gets multiplied by 12,244.16 instead of 21,500 and then that amount of armor is subtracted from 21,500. Since 12,244.16/21,500 = roughly 57%, we can say that armor penetration is 57% as effective against a target with 21,500 armor than it is against a target at 7,615.25 or less armor. Therefore, 10% armor penetration from battle stance is really only 5.7% total armor reduction and mace spec would really only amount to 8.5% reduction.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!
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#54 Kelraj

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:52 PM

so im guessing ArP and Str/AP are pretty much equal now? or is ArP still the winner?
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#55 Stero

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:27 AM

Str wins. Tested it out on my gear and did the math off my top end damage. Replacing Str for armor pen in gems results in less damage overall. At this point, incorporating pve gear for armor pen should be the only way you stack armor pen, and do this at your own risk of losing survivability as you would with any piece of pve gear.

Armor pen is a good damage buff, but not at the expense of strength or most of your survivability in light of this new armor pen cap information from blizzard.

I would sub in melancholy sabatons and legplates of double strikes and favor of the dragon queen to get some good armor pen totals without losing too much resilience (if you have these pieces).

:( armor pen would have been so powerful if they didnt have that secret cap.
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#56 ProudToBeAWoman

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:17 AM

I'm pretty sure Craton has it right. Armor less than or equal to 7,615.25 receives the full effect from armor penetration. Beyond 7,615.25 the "(armor + C)/3" formula produces a value that is less than the target's armor, thus becoming the cap and reducing armor penetration's effectiveness against high armor targets as Blizzard stated.

So against a paladin for example, with 21,500 armor:

Cap = (21,500 + 15,232.5)/3
Cap = 12,244.16

This means your armor penetration gets multiplied by 12,244.16 instead of 21,500 and then that amount of armor is subtracted from 21,500. Since 12,244.16/21,500 = roughly 57%, we can say that armor penetration is 57% as effective against a target with 21,500 armor than it is against a target at 7,615.25 or less armor. Therefore, 10% armor penetration from battle stance is really only 5.7% total armor reduction and five stacks of sunder (at 5% per application) would really only amount to 14.25% reduction.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!


GC said something about the values varying by class, in this case your numbers are on a warrior. Not sure how much of a difference it has from class to class, but there is sure to be some disparity.
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#57 Ishnu

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:08 AM

well, GC's post only describe the state of pure ArP on Gear, with no talents, sundering etc

and we know they dont stack additive, its a lot more complicated
the formulas of EJ should still be right in many points, and there are rogue discussions because they somehow managed to get to 0 mitigation with sunders/fearie up

perhaps the debuffs on the enemy are decreasing the max armor, not the cap or dunno
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#58 Jedion

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:54 PM

no, armor penetration is capped at percent damage done. That means it is exactly as effective on a paladin as it is on a hunter. It is less effective if the target has lower armor than 7700.

Some further math comparing ap with arp: (used betrayer of humanity, noncrit only)
(priest 5000 armor, paladin 23000 armor)

priest, 100% arp (0 armor), 4000 ap -> 1727 dmg / hit
priest, 10% arp (4500 armor), 6300 ap -> 1766 dmg / hit

priest, 50% arp (no arp trinket proc, 2500 armor), 4000 ap -> 1483.7 dmg / hit
priest, 10% arp (no ap trinket proc, 4500 armor), 5100 ap -> 1540.6 dmg / hit

paladin, 100% arp (10256 armor), 4000 ap -> 1032 dmg / hit
paladin, 10% arp (21726 armor), 6300 ap -> 943 dmg / hit

paladin, 50% arp (no proc, 16627 armor), 4000 ap -> 826 dmg / hit
paladin, 10% arp (no ap trinket proc, 21726 armor), 5100 ap -> 823 dmg / hit

AP and ARP seem to be pretty good balanced.


THe only thing that seems "flawed" with your numbers is that you are saying 40% arp is = 1100 ap. However, to get 40% arp you can use sunder (approximately 20%) and/or mace spec to cover a good part of that. Assuming we need 20% arp from gear, that certainly isnt equal to 1100 AP... 20% = 307.8 arp, or 307.8 str = 615 AP...

While I cant assume anyone will use maces or not, could you redo your numbers using sunder armor?...
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#59 zeronix

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 01:55 PM

Is grim toll still a superior trinket, or should i just go for battlemaster/another pve trinket? (don't have any ARP on the rest of my gear)
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#60 Levitron

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Posted 27 April 2009 - 03:42 AM

Have they fixed armor penetration yet?


ArP is staying where it's at... they added caps for ArP below the total values of an individual's armor, inherently reducing its effectiveness, as ArP no longer is off of the whole, but off of a smaller value--at least that's how I understand the situation.

ArP will gain in effectiveness the greater your average weapon damage is. Mace spec begins to outpace Axe once your average weapon damage is approaching just over 2k. Otherwise, Axe + Str is still more effective in terms of overall damage on the whole vs. all possible armor combinations.
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