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Correct PvP ArP info for Warrs


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#21 Faile

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 03:01 AM

Since I am a visual person, I plotted out a couple samples. If you want to see grim toll effects, just add 50% to the x-value. Each 5% step in ArP = 61.6 rating (so consider the effective increase of 61.6 strength).

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Here's a calcuator: 3.1 ArP Calculator

I'd like to note that that calculator counts Mace Specc and Battle Stance as Multiplicative, whilst his post counts them as Additive.

I have no idea as to which is correct, just thought I'd point out the differences.
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i say bring it on blizzard, is that all you've got


#22 Dysent

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 04:35 AM

I'd like to note that that calculator counts Mace Specc and Battle Stance as Multiplicative, whilst his post counts them as Additive.

I have no idea as to which is correct, just thought I'd point out the differences.


Interesting. I honestly didn't test mace for myself, I should test it and make sure it fits the model I presented, or instead fix the model.

Also: thanks for doing that gear setup. Those mistakes are what I get for planning it all out via excel at work, heh.
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#23 Dysent

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 05:17 AM

hum, can't edit my own post in this thread. Wierd. Sorry to back-to-back post.

I just tested this on the PTR.

Two things:
1. Penalty of x = x*81% still exists in current build, but the tooltip still says the number ArP SHOULD be. Hoping it gets fixed...

2. Mace being additive is correct from my data just now
w/ mace, 186 ArP, no str bonus
BT base: 1591
zerk hit: 1041, matched by additive model
battle hit: 1081, matched by additive model
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#24 Stero

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:47 AM

Actually, armor pen against cloth isn't that bad. I did some quick math on targets with about 6000 armor and if you gemmed/geared for all strength you would do about the same damage, if not somewhat less, than you would as if you gemmed all armor pen. I think this is because of the higher amount of armor at 80 than at 70. At 70, this was definitely not the case. When i switched from all str gear/gems to armor pen, I lost ~70 top end damage, so that is the difference in pre-mitigation damage that I used. If you want to see some math here it is:

6000 armor = 28.25% mitigation
with 10% armor pen from stance, 6000(.9) = 5400 armor = 26.62% mitigation
If a damaging attack does 1850 before mitigation:
1850(1-.2662) = 1850(.7338) = 1357.5 damage.

With 10% armor pen from stance + 25% from items (35% passive total):
6000(.65) = 3900 = 20.38% mitigation.
Damaging attack does ~70 damage less than before, 1780 damage before mitigation:
1780(1-.2038) = 1780(.7962) = 1417.2

As you can see, the damage actually went up, not down. Your grim toll procs will increase this damage more, but not the 44% or so that it would on plate.

Of course this doesnt take into account the survivability I lost, which was around 500 health and 150 resilience.
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#25 Aqueous

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 03:31 PM

Nowadays everything under the sun has some form armor increasing buff or effect that gets it up to leather mitigation or higher - true cloth feels like a thing of the past so it's not surprising that ArP is becoming extremely efficient as a stat with its 25% buff.
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#26 Guntt

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 05:06 PM

Priests are going to have something like 7300-7400 armor with the inner fire glyph.


Fortunately for you, hardly any Priests will be using it :(

Too situational, and we have way too many great Major Glyphs already.
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#27 Gasmask

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 05:27 PM

With 10% armor pen from stance + 25% from items (35% passive total):


Correct me if I'm wrong:
25% ArP from gear = 308 rating. That's equivalent to 308 strength, or 616ap, or 44dps. Assuming you are swinging an arena 2hander, that's worth 158.4 damage per hit.

This would mean that assuming your initial case of a 1850 unmitigated average hit, swapping to 25% ArP would put you around 1347. Thus, you are only losing 10dmg versus 6000 armor.
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#28 Elorah

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:16 PM

Fortunately for you, hardly any Priests will be using it :(

Too situational, and we have way too many great Major Glyphs already.


You sure about this? I remember seeing a ton of priests mentioning they'd be using it. I know I'll have it on my priest. It's like a 2500 armor increase, and the flash heal glyph is the only other one worth using after shield + pennance. How many teams are you going to play that have no physical damage dealers or are going to leave a priest alone?
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#29 Windwalk

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 04:39 AM

a lot of priests will have inner fire glyph
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#30 Pirated

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 04:49 AM

Fortunately for you, hardly any Priests will be using it :(

Too situational


taking less physical damage is situational? rofl
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#31 Stero

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 03:40 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong:
25% ArP from gear = 308 rating. That's equivalent to 308 strength, or 616ap, or 44dps. Assuming you are swinging an arena 2hander, that's worth 158.4 damage per hit.

This would mean that assuming your initial case of a 1850 unmitigated average hit, swapping to 25% ArP would put you around 1347. Thus, you are only losing 10dmg versus 6000 armor.


Well, switching over to get 25% from gear did not all come from substituting armor pen for strength, only the gems did (which is where the 70 loss of damage came from, not the 158.4 that you stated). The gear itself has str as well as armor pen.
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#32 Dysent

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 06:00 PM

http://forums.worldo...137191252&sid=1

Post up requesting Blizz to clarify if ArP bug will be fixed or not for 3.1 live.
Appreciate bumps or feedback added to that thread in hopes of increasing visibility and getting a definitive response.
Also: try not to troll Blizz in that thread. The more constructive and reasonable we are, the more likely we are to get a constructive and reasonable reply.
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#33 Dysent

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 01:03 AM

Important:

ArP is still bugged. The 19% ArP penalty went live. DO NOT GO ArP.

It's pretty bad with a 19% penalty.

Welcome to failure in bug correction. :\
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#34 Wexlike

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 10:21 AM

omg...
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#35 Reepz

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 11:45 AM

what do you mean exactly Dysent that we didnt recieve the "25% ARP buff"? so its like old pre patch?
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#36 Inory

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 12:19 PM

instead of 100*1.25 they did the formula wrong...right now it's like 100+1.25. 101.25/125 = 81%, so basiclly you are getting 81% of your expect arp atm on live. Atleast that's what I understand it as.
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#37 Levitron

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 08:37 PM

The damage upgrade when going ARp is still quite noticeable... I would recommend it anyway.
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#38 Powerslave

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 12:48 AM

Us people make a thread about this on the *damage dealing* forum and bump it for eternity ?

there are already some threads up,keep bumping them

because eu is worthless
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#39 Dysent

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 03:32 PM

According to all the testing done on the heroic dummy, ArP consistently gives exactly 81% of what it should to that target.

It's still not a bad stat against a high armor target, but it's definitely not the amazing game changer that we'd hoped for.

The thing that I somehow missed was testing against a broader variety of targets - I'll be using a 0-31-0 spec to test BT damage at various ArP levels against players later this week when I can between Ulduar raids. It seems like all the EJ folks tested against dummies instead of players (easier to gather data)... but 100% of testing against dummies indicates that ArP is not performing at anything near tooltip value vs lvl80 or lvl83 dummy.

Might want to de-sticky this thread for now, since them not fixing ArP the way we'd expected has really muddied the waters and optimal pvp gear theorycraft still needs to be mathed out.
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#40 wariord

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:09 AM

when you add self buff ArP (bstance macespec gear) + 5x sunder, is that additive or multiplicative?
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