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Correct PvP ArP info for Warrs


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#1 Dysent

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:33 PM

The warr ArP thread is filled with people napkin-mathing ArP wrong, so I wanted to chime in, as I've been watching this pretty close at EJ. Maybe someone with the rating to can cross-post this. I think ArP w/ Grim Toll is going to become our PvP bread and butter.
You cannot get 100% ignore from sunder + shatt + battle + GT proc. You get more like 80%. It just doesn't add like that.

1. Self + Buff ArP (incl mace/stance) is additive.
Debuff ArP is multiplicative (sunder/shatt = -36%).
The combination of the two is "complicated".
I've put that formula at the bottom so you don't have to deal with detail math to read the post.

2. The values where a GT proc brings you to 100% armor ignore is:
No sunder
Zerk = 620 ArP
Battle = 497 ArP
Battle + Mace = 312 ArP
These values are NOT relative to armor of target

With either sunder or shattering throw vs 24k armor (paladin) is:
Zerk = 511 ArP
Battle = 388 ArP
Battle + Mace = 203 ArP
the sundered/shatter values go up vs >24k armor, down at <24k. Takes about ~40 ArP less to cap out vs 5-10k armor

I'm going to shoot for 388 or 497 ArP and use GT. Sunder the target, watch for a GT proc and then run a reck combo vs 0 armor. Yes, you have to wear pve gear to do this. I expect it'll be worth it to hit paladins/DKs like clothies.

497 will be hard to reach in pvp gear until ulduar gear, but once you have an ulduar weapon and a bit of gear, you can probably hit 497 and no longer spend GCD's sundering. Also: bladestorm in 5's at 100% armor ignore (without sunders!) makes me drool.

It's worth noting that Mace = 185 ArP rating, Axe = 230 Crit rating. Axe is much, much better than mace except when the mace is capping your ArP. I don't advise going mace unless you can't get the ArP elsewhere. It's almost as bad as using a lower tier weap.

MATH:
The 3.1 ArP formula is:
Final ArP % = A/(A+B*((1-x)-y*(1-(B/(A+B))*x)))

A = 15232.5, B = target armor#, x = selfbuff ArP, y = debuff ArP

y is multiplicative. Sunder = 20%, ShattThrow = 20%, Sunder + Shatthrow = 36%, sunder + FF = 24%. Sunder + ff + shatt = 39.2%

x is additive. Battle stance = 123 ArP, Mace spec = 185 ArP. It all adds together w/ gear ArP then gets divided by 12.3164 to get you a % for x.
Source is math at http://elitistjerks....level_80_a/p16/
All of this is assuming the ArP bug gets fixed and that no new major arp changes go in before the patch. I think those are both fair assumptions. If the bug is not fixed, you multiply x by 81% (and ArP sux again).
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#2 Windwalk

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:00 PM

cool thread, want me to link this on the warrior forum?

also, you would recommend that I gem arpen and go axe spec as a warrior with ZERO access to PvE gear?
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#3 Dysent

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:57 PM

cool thread, want me to link this on the warrior forum?

Please. The ArP thread is filled with people doing the math with bad assumptions (e.g. just add %'s together), and I posted to help everyone understand the correct numbers.

also, you would recommend that I gem arpen and go axe spec as a warrior with ZERO access to PvE gear?


ArP is better vs plate, worse vs cloth than STR. JC/BS on DG gear gemset is ~193 ArP.
Vs 24k armor, first 193 ArP is +5% dmg
Vs 5k armor it's +3%.
+193 STR is probably about +3.5-+4% depending on spec/kings.

If you've got a Grim Toll, though, it makes GT procs insane and seems worth it. Otherwise, it's more based on what armor levels you need the most help vs and if you're arms or fury. (better for arms than fury vs str)

Basically:
- If you're going ArP, you want as much as you can reasonably get up to the cap.
- If you have a Grim Toll, you probably want to go ArP. Proc is 44% damage gain vs 24k armor if it exactly caps you.
- If you fight nothing but cloth, ArP is a bad idea.
- Stop sundering cloth. It's bad now.
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#4 Vadren

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:04 PM

Good to know, thanks.
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#5 Guest_Wickler_*

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:18 PM

Nice stuff man.
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#6 Fierss

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:32 PM

- Stop sundering cloth. It's bad now.

Obviously 20% on low armor targets won't be as beneficial as on higher armor targets. But it's an often permanent increase in damage, both dps and burst.
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#7 Dysent

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Obviously 20% on low armor targets won't be as beneficial as on higher armor targets. But it's an often permanent increase in damage, both dps and burst.


Against 5k armor, best case (sunder drops them to exactly 0) is +5% dmg, worst case is +4% dmg. Your first sunder is going to be like +.8% dmg.

It is a damage increase and sometimes 4% means a kill, but probably applying pressure for 75 rage and 5gcd's is going to be better than spending them all for a 4% buff. Sundering used to be a closer to a 20% buff in this situation in 3.09, so it's about 1/5th as good as before.
Saying never was probably too strong; sometimes that 4% burst will be worth all that gcd/rage spend.
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#8 Windwalk

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 07:57 PM

what do you think about the executioner enchant?
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#9 Dysent

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 08:43 PM

what do you think about the executioner enchant?


I can't imagine it being better than Berserking ever. Berserking has a high uptime and 400 AP is better than 120 ArP. Executioner would need like a 80%+ uptime to ever be better.

--

Aside - might save some ppl some time - I worked out near-GT cap ArP set - 453 resil, 438 ArP, 5.2% hit and keeps you the 4/5 set bonus:

PvP - DG 4/5 (no leg) & DG bracer/belt/ring & pvp trink
PvE - BoH, Grim Toll, double strike legs, favor of dragon queen, collision greatring, melancholy sabatons, aged winter cloak
Need to enchant precision/icewalker for hit

Sockets : Gems -
2R/3Pris: 5x 16 ArP, (chest/helm & smith slots)
1Y: 20resi, (shoulder)
1Y: 16 hit, (leg)
1Y: 27 ArP (chest)
2B: 2x27 ArP, (ring/neck)
3B: 8ArP/12Sta (leg/glove/bracer)

To cap, can go higher by swapping gems in legs, gloves and bracer for 16ArP (+40ArP -36sta -10str -4crit -16hit), but probably not worth it.
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#10 Deepz

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:15 PM

It's worth noting that Mace = 185 ArP rating, Axe = 230 Crit rating. Axe is much, much better than mace except when the mace is capping your ArP. I don't advise going mace unless you can't get the ArP elsewhere. It's almost as bad as using a lower tier weap.


What ratio are you using to compare ArP rating to Crit rating? It's most definitely not 1:1, or even 1:0.8, which is what would be required for the Crit rating to equal the ArP rating.
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#11 Faile

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:24 PM

I can't imagine it being better than Berserking ever. Berserking has a high uptime and 400 AP is better than 120 ArP. Executioner would need like a 80%+ uptime to ever be better.

--

Aside - might save some ppl some time - I worked out near-GT cap ArP set - 453 resil, 438 ArP, 5.2% hit and keeps you the 4/5 set bonus:

PvP - DG 4/5 (no leg) & DG bracer/belt/ring & pvp trink
PvE - BoH, Grim Toll, double strike legs, favor of dragon queen, collision greatring, melancholy sabatons, aged winter cloak
Need to enchant precision/icewalker for hit

Sockets : Gems -
2R/3Pris: 5x 16 ArP, (chest/helm & smith slots)
1Y: 20resi, (shoulder)
1Y: 16 hit, (leg)
1Y: 27 ArP (chest)
2B: 2x27 ArP, (ring/neck)
3B: 8ArP/12Sta (leg/glove/bracer)

To cap, can go higher by swapping gems in legs, gloves and bracer for 16ArP (+40ArP -36sta -10str -4crit -16hit), but probably not worth it.

I assume you mean something like this: http://chardev.org/?template=159162 ? You forgot thrown, mixed up 1 blue gem(said bracer instead of belt) and got the resilience too low(pre-enchants).

But yeah, looks pretty good to me, although I'm not sure most Warriors will bother to completely re-itemize their gems/gear for a couple of weeks before getting Ulduar/Furious gear.
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i say bring it on blizzard, is that all you've got


#12 Gasmask

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:59 PM

Since I am a visual person, I plotted out a couple samples. If you want to see grim toll effects, just add 50% to the x-value. Each 5% step in ArP = 61.6 rating (so consider the effective increase of 61.6 strength).

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Here's a calcuator: 3.1 ArP Calculator
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#13 Maldazzar

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:22 AM

i skimmed through the thread, the 81% ArP cap is likely a bug
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#14 Gasmask

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:24 AM

i skimmed through the thread, the 81% ArP cap is likely a bug

http://blue.mmo-cham...an-tooltip.html
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#15 Maldazzar

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 12:45 AM

nvm just actually read the post
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#16 Algrumm

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:44 AM

So if holy paladins are dominating would it be wise to go mace spec with a few ArP items, ArP gems and a grim toll?


That's all I really want to know. :rolleyes:
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#17 Fierss

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:45 AM

That's a pretty obvious yes, Algrumm.
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#18 Algrumm

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:47 AM

That's a pretty obvious yes, Algrumm.


I assumed so, only downside would be if you ran into something like priest/rogue etc
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#19 Fierss

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:53 AM

Priests are going to have something like 7300-7400 armor with the inner fire glyph.
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#20 Algrumm

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 02:10 AM

Priests are going to have something like 7300-7400 armor with the inner fire glyph.


Christ, what happened to the word "Clothie"?

Guess I should keep up with glyphs. :x
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