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Daddy's Unholy Thread


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#1 Yur

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:12 PM

http://www.wowhead.c...0bdMIqRcout:Lrb
17/54

Point allocation, frost: I get RPM personal preference, you can max toughness by either taking points out of RPM or out of annihilation. Nothing else needs explanation.

Point allocation, Unholy: With the reemergence of Spriests in 3.1, you're going to need, especially in 2v2, AMZ. For four points, it's the best investment we have. Imp unholy presence, if it's actually working, is a big marginal increase in DPS: 9 second runes vs 10 seconds is actually a huge difference considering it allows us to put out ~11%~ more SS's, DCS, or whatever filler word you'd prefer in there. Point being, unholy presence will be better than blood presence in 2s/3s, 5s mass aoe dps will still probably be better.

I know some people don't like not maxing RoR, but the DPS and survivability you get from AMZ/UP are worth the lack of 3/3 wp and 2/5 RoR. Max IUP will, I believe, put out more dps for the 2 points than 5/5 RoR, as it's 11% vs 10% increase in damage and both only affect abilities, not melee.

So, the combination of IMP UP and some RoR is going to be crazy damage post 3.1, but I don't see any bracket not having a use for the DK having AMZ. I personally feel it's required for any makeup because chances are double melee teams will be even more scarce than they already are with the reemergence of spriests.

Back to point allocation in unholy, everything else is pretty much self-explanatory, cookie-cutter, or just necessary. The only thing that really needs testing is impurity vs RoR and if it's worth taking 2 points out of impurity to put in RoR, which it probably will be. This theory has been proven correct by Myrmedor on page 10 using math, not theory. 4% RoR damage will be better than 8% in impurity.

Glyphs: Dark death, ghoul, 3rd will probably be ss, nothing definitive for 3rd yet.

Edit: Second revamping of spec, dropped a point in Impurity for UB. 200 steady dps, it's actually pretty good.

Edit2: Testing results: http://img11.imagesh...41009145803.jpg
After 10 minutes of fighting, using SS glyph, I only had to reapply diseases using it/PS 5 times excluding the initial put up of it. 7903 max SS crit IN unholy presence without betrayer.


Please, let's try and post specs/comments and keep trolling to a minimum: Let's make a compendium of specs in this thread, as 3.1 has no more changes that are coming out that will affect classes, or so I believe :).
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#2 Urhiel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:36 PM

Alright and since i'm sick of all the posts of random specs popping like mushrooms, i'll try also posting some of the most popular and most discussed ones:

Frost/Blood 17/51/3
--Points between Endless Winter, Runetap, Acclimation and Imp Frost Presence can be reallocated for personal preference.

Traditional Unholy Blood 16/0/54, or close variations
--Points on Rune Tap, AMZ, RPM can be reallocated for personal preference.

Heavy Blood Specs, such as 54/0/17, or close variations
--Points on Rune Tap, Toughness and WotN can be reallocated for personal preference.

Blood with Lichborne, 51/11/9
--Points on Rune Tap and unholy Command can be reallocated for personal preference.
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Official Blizzard Quote:


The intent was just to split the damage into part physical and part Shadow. We didn't want the split itself to be a penalty, if that makes sense.


No, it doesn't.

#3 Ulali

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:37 PM

http://ptr.wowhead.c...fMGI0bbxIqRcouu
0/17/54

Point allocation, frost: I get RPM personal preference, you can max toughness by either taking points out of RPM or out of annihilation. Nothing else needs explanation.

Point allocation, Unholy: With the reemergence of Spriests in 3.1, you're going to need, especially in 2v2, AMZ. For four points, it's the best investment we have. Imp unholy presence, if it's actually working, is a big marginal increase in DPS: 9 second runes vs 10 seconds is actually a huge difference considering it allows us to put out ~11%~ more SS's, DCS, or whatever filler word you'd prefer in there. Point being, unholy presence will be better than blood presence in 2s/3s, 5s mass aoe dps will still probably be better.

I know some people don't like not maxing RoR, but the DPS and survivability you get from AMZ/UP are worth the lack of 3/3 wp and 2/5 RoR. Max IUP will, I believe, put out more dps for the 2 points than 5/5 RoR, as it's 11% vs 10% increase in damage and both only affect abilities, not melee.

So, the combination of IMP UP and some RoR is going to be crazy damage post 3.1, but I don't see any bracket not having a use for the DK having AMZ. I personally feel it's required for any makeup because chances are double melee teams will be even more scarce than they already are with the reemergence of spriests.

Back to point allocation in unholy, everything else is pretty much self-explanatory, cookie-cutter, or just necessary. The only thing that really needs testing is impurity vs RoR and if it's worth taking 2 points out of impurity to put in RoR, which it probably will be.

Glyphs: Dark death, ghoul, 3rd will probably be ss, nothing definitive for 3rd yet.

Please, let's try and post specs/comments and keep trolling to a minimum: Let's make a compendium of specs in this thread, as 3.1 has no more changes that are coming out that will affect classes, or so I believe :).


i still dont see the buffing of spriests really giving a reason to drop 4 pts to get amz but thats just my opinion otherwise it looks good
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If BC was chess, then WoTLK is dodgeball

I have no idea what you're talking about. you are a :paladin: the most overpowered, broken class in the entire game just shut up AND IM RETARDED AND I THINK I IS GOOD CUZ I PLAY RET/WAR/DRUID


Spoiler

#4 Urhiel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:40 PM

i still dont see the buffing of spriests really giving a reason to drop 4 pts to get amz but thats just my opinion otherwise it looks good


Destruction Warlocks. And it was always golden Versus mages of any spec.
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Official Blizzard Quote:


The intent was just to split the damage into part physical and part Shadow. We didn't want the split itself to be a penalty, if that makes sense.


No, it doesn't.

#5 Pobzy

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:41 PM

i still dont see the buffing of spriests really giving a reason to drop 4 pts to get amz but thats just my opinion otherwise it looks good


I think 4 points for AMZ is amazing, it's really a lifesaver at a lot of situations, and if it doesn't req an UH rune anymore it's going to be amazing.
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#6 Ulali

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:41 PM

Destruction Warlocks. And it was always golden Versus mages of any spec.


ah true destro locks, well only time will tell :) but i think the spec yur linked is the cookie cutter of 3.1


spoils, i thought they reverted that change
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If BC was chess, then WoTLK is dodgeball

I have no idea what you're talking about. you are a :paladin: the most overpowered, broken class in the entire game just shut up AND IM RETARDED AND I THINK I IS GOOD CUZ I PLAY RET/WAR/DRUID


Spoiler

#7 Pobzy

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:46 PM

ah true destro locks, well only time will tell :) but i think the spec yur linked is the cookie cutter of 3.1


spoils, i thought they reverted that change


I'm not sure, haven't been able to get onto PTR for some reason.

Can we get a confirmation?
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#8 Yur

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:12 PM

i still dont see the buffing of spriests really giving a reason to drop 4 pts to get amz but thats just my opinion otherwise it looks good


You already acknowledged what the other person said, but yeah I was just using them as an example. Destro locks are going ot be big in 3.1 which I forgot about too.
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#9 Darin

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:16 PM

Couldn't agree more that 4point AMZ is worth it, we will need defensive cooldowns more and more with 2minute boneshield cds, etc.

The only problem I see with committing to a deep unholy spec is the lack of a dependable snare, such as what chillblains in frost or the new glyph of heartstrike in blood brings.

Also is unholy blight just not worth it now? I would seem to think that it is, recently Rngesus made posts defending Unholy Blight for its passive set it and forget it dps and uncanny ability to get stealthies out.
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#10 Varastus

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:35 PM

When I played with blood/unholy builds, I used to try and get Unholy blight whenever possible. For 40 RP, it does quite a bit of aoe damage, not to mention it's brutal if you're able to sit on a target for most of its duration. A lot of people don't like it, but I'm probably gonna try to incorporate it in a build for 3.1 personally.

Not to mention, with how fast UB ticks, I've seen cloaked rogues get knocked out of vanish 3/5 times at least. But to each his own, I suppose.
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#11 Dunsparrow

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:15 PM

I'll second the usefulness of AMZ in all brackets next patch, especially with the likely emergence of Destro Lock/Arcane Mage as a dominant 2v2 comp.

I also completely agree with getting IUP for 2v2. Right now, the tradeoff between BP and UP is sustained vs burst damage. With IUP you will be able to do not just more burst, but more total attacks than you could in blood presence. In other words, this talent effectively eliminates the downside of UP while maintaining the bonuses.

Its fucking huge, possibly to the point of being overpowered. This is probably the best 2 point investment in the entire tree.
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#12 StÖmp1296679484

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:29 PM

I'll second the usefulness of AMZ in all brackets next patch, especially with the likely emergence of Destro Lock/Arcane Mage as a dominant 2v2 comp.

I also completely agree with getting IUP for 2v2. Right now, the tradeoff between BP and UP is sustained vs burst damage. With IUP you will be able to do not just more burst, but more total attacks than you could in blood presence. In other words, this talent effectively eliminates the downside of UP while maintaining the bonuses.

Its fucking huge, possibly to the point of being overpowered. This is probably the best 2 point investment in the entire tree.


I approve and support Yurs spec.. with the original reason being Spriest buffs (lul) I thought he had total downs but with the nerfs to Frost Pres/Bone Shield and emergence of another heavy damage caster class that isnt lulspriest(thats what you're fearing in 3.1 yur?) (Destro) I can definitely see the need for this spec. I do reccomend taking 1 point from RoR and putting it in WP since our diseases still dont break vanish/rogue stealth unless WP procs and the drink stopping effect (its not exactly a dps loss either since we'll be forced to keep fucktons of diseases up 90% of the match)

Also what glyph choices? Im still a fan of Chains of Ice glyph since we'll be spamming it for FF (It does 900 hit 1300 crit for me atm, I'll have to see if its worth the slot come 3.1 with the changes to bonus frost damage scaling but theres no point in not getting it unless im overlooking a really powerful alternative).
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#13 Dunsparrow

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:45 PM

Wait, diseases still dont break rogue stealth next patch? I hate this game.
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#14 StÖmp1296679484

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:55 PM

Wait, diseases still dont break rogue stealth next patch? I hate this game.


I cant confirm but I havent seen any BTW WHOOPS LOL FIXT by Blizz on MMO yet so Im assuming its still broked.
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#15 Dieszel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:13 PM

I still think unholy is going to struggle without a better snare. Blowing frost runes on COI just to catch up to someone will kill your damage. It all depends on how desecration ends up imo, but unholy is not my first option.

I've been playing with this... http://ptr.wowhead.c...xzAbcocuVostfMM in some PTR BG's and it's worked great so far. The reason DK's dominate now is because we can do so much 1 rune damage from range and our snaring is plain overpowered. The new unholy's only ranged damage is 2 deathcoils, after that you will not be putting IT's into your target because you can't use BB's to apply a snare so COI is required. With this spec you still have the option of dropping respectable damage from range which will also drop an AOE snare (soooo many great applications of this in any bracket). You also have the #1 snare out of the three trees which we all know is huge since DK's are pretty easy to kite.

I'm an old school warrior and I look at DG as the same thing as imp intercept which you ALWAYS took in an arena build. I can't see myself ever skipping Unholy Command and the added time to your diseases outweighs the crit from Dark Conviction in my book since your main attack will be obliterates which already have a very high crit rate.

A well placed hungering cold guarantees that defensive cooldowns will need to be used. 10 seconds is a very long time. The one thing I don't like about this spec is that it's pretty heavy on physical damage. Using your KM procs and deathchill well with hungering cold is going to destroy people when their healer is out of trinket/bubbles etc.

I think frost is going to beat out unholy and the number one reason is a ranged non dispellable snare. Unholy still looks very strong and has great damage + control though.

Not sure about glyphs yet. HB, obliterate, and frost strike most likely. There are some other options though.
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#16 Urhiel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:21 PM

it's still 2 talent points wasted on vicious strike, yet on the other hand it might prove to be alright due to the new plaguestrike. By the way, has IUP been fixed on the PTR yet? And as for BotN, is it going to stay 5 talent points or be reduced in 3?
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Official Blizzard Quote:


The intent was just to split the damage into part physical and part Shadow. We didn't want the split itself to be a penalty, if that makes sense.


No, it doesn't.

#17 Whillwinz

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:24 PM

I've been playing with this... http://ptr.wowhead.c...xzAbcocuVostfMM


That's what I'm thinking, except I would drop Epidemic for 2 points in Acclim and perhaps 3/5 BA + 3/3 Acclim. Some people say it's no good anymore due to less pally auras but the only time you would use Conc Aura in 3.1 is when you want to pop Aura Mastery. The rest of the time you'd still use whatever resistance aura you have on. It's also good if you play with any other healer's resistance buffs.

And for glyphs I would use IT cause FS is king as frost, along with FS and OB.
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#18 Dieszel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:29 PM

it's still 2 talent points wasted on vicious strike, yet on the other hand it might prove to be alright due to the new plaguestrike. By the way, has IUP been fixed on the PTR yet? And as for BotN, is it going to stay 5 talent points or be reduced in 3?


it's 6% more crit and 30% more crit damage on a talent that you must use to apply diseases vs 2% more dodge. Neither are great, but I think vicious strikes wins out. Either way, the tier 2 talents are still a MUST have imo for arenas. I will never skip 10 seconds off DG and 6 more seconds on diseases especially now that disease modifiers are increased basically making it stupid to use your 2 rune abilities without diseases up. Make pestilence work from range and I could see myself maybe dropping it. I played for a few weeks without Epidemic and you really feel like you are doing only one 2 rune ability before having to reapply diseases. I know it's changed with pestilence and the new glyph, but still the 2 talents combined outweigh an extra 5% crit on already high crit main attacks.
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#19 Dieszel

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:36 PM

That's what I'm thinking, except I would drop Epidemic for 2 points in Acclim and perhaps 3/5 BA + 3/3 Acclim. Some people say it's no good anymore due to less pally auras but the only time you would use Conc Aura in 3.1 is when you want to pop Aura Mastery. The rest of the time you'd still use whatever resistance aura you have on. It's also good if you play with any other healer's resistance buffs.

And for glyphs I would use IT cause FS is king as frost, along with FS and OB.


IT is one of those options I mentioned along with HC glyph (although I don't think anyone will take this as a major for a 1 minute CD ability).

I won't take acclimation. The only time you are going to get any real benefit is when you are targeted by casters which is not even applicable in every fight. As this spec you will still have a lot of mitigation so chances are you won't be the type of target that gets tunneled (unbreakable armor, AMS, 6 seconds more on IBFort).Won't you hate to have wasted 3 talent points when you are going up against teams without damage dealing casters? Only a 30% chance for a proc that only lasts 18 seconds. From reading the tooltip does it also have to be new damage? ie. only when the dot is applied and not a 30% chance per tick.
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#20 Whillwinz

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:44 PM

IT is one of those options I mentioned along with HC glyph (although I don't think anyone will take this as a major for a 1 minute CD ability).

I won't take acclimation. The only time you are going to get any real benefit is when you are targeted by casters which is not even applicable in every fight. As this spec you will still have a lot of mitigation so chances are you won't be the type of target that gets tunneled (unbreakable armor, AMS, 6 seconds more on IBFort).Won't you hate to have wasted 3 talent points when you are going up against teams without damage dealing casters? Only a 30% chance for a proc that only lasts 18 seconds. From reading the tooltip does it also have to be new damage? ie. only when the dot is applied and not a 30% chance per tick.


It does work off dot ticks. You will have a full stack up in no time against casters. It basically makes it so a caster(<-including DKs) can NOT target you in any circumstance, and I feel that's too good to pass up. The only issue is that you need to have other buffs that increase your resistance for it to matter, otherwise spell pen negates it (for the most part).
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