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Please tell me how ret is OP


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#41 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:29 PM

Don't compare yourselves to op classes. Sure, DKs are way worse, but it's not like rets are any balanced.



You realise this is more than half a shatter damage on a 8s cooldown. If anything should be what burst is built around, it's shatter combos. They require casting and setup, and as such can be stopped. They also are dependent on other cooldowns (nova/pet nova/DF). Yours doesn't meet such requirements. Rogues can train you and stop you but that's not like it's the case for everybody.

Rather have you deal normal damage with some additional utility than what you put out atm.



its the utility that what makes it so frustrating. and basically what im saying is rets have horrible util and alright damage. vs what your saying about a frost mage they have tons of awsome utility to help them kill stuff burst is not the one and only thing they have. its extremely difficult to get in range of a frost mage. they have insane snares and poly. as well as a 8 second counter spell with a 4 second silence. they are often teamed with rogues who provide an additional massive amount of control along with mortal strike debuff with good damage(not super holy shit but stillvery good)

butwhat do rets have. only damage. I was talking to some people earlier and they felt that warriors should beable to do twice as much damage as rets and still have ms. now tell me how a ret would EVER score a kill if the game was like that.

"only damage does not win games especially if it has a long cooldown. you can't just walk away from a rogue/mage raping you but since ret has no snares its easy just walk away.

so yes i agree totaly. about the util thing. also taking 33% of the damage you do is crazy stupid. so lets say if i crit for 6k. i take 2k damage so if someone hits me for 4k (a good deal less then 6k) both people are still taking the exact same amount of damage in the end.
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#42 Fierss

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:30 PM

Your damage is unavoidable (instant, you don't oom, etc). You have something like 70%? crit with judgments. You're almost impossible to peel, hard to kill, proc heals as a dps class, and make CCing anyone on your team exceedingly difficult. You bring replenishment for your teamates, and in smaller brackets, you can literally just turtle until HoJ/repent are up, go for a kill, and if you fail, put on a shield and turtle again. Your damage almost entirely ignores armor. Not to mention half of pallies (and seemingly more ret pallies) have a blood elf racial to add into the hoj/repent rapefest. Because all your abilities are chainable for immense burst, you can swap very easily, and pets have no chance of survival. Your only downfall is that you have no snare, but you run at 115% speed, your enemies run at 100%, and you have freedom, so this isn't an incredible issue. You have ret aura that ticks for a million, as well as eye for an eye, so any sort of melee v melee battle is automatically in your favor.

I think that covers most of it?

I played ret in s3/s4. I didn't get glad with it, but I did miss it in both seasons by about 50-75 rating. The spec is sooooo much better than it used to be, and didn't need most of what it got.

edit: Vindication.
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#43 amerge

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:30 PM

I've been at 80% before

autoattack, judge, dead

judgement crit me for 8.5k on with 550 resilience

ret does waaaaaay too much damage, get over it


yep :) and they're giving crusader strike a MS next patch too ?
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#44 amerge

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:31 PM

Your damage is unavoidable (instant, you don't oom, etc). You have something like 70%? crit with judgments. You're almost impossible to peel, hard to kill, proc heals as a dps class, and make CCing anyone on your team exceedingly difficult. You bring replenishment for your teamates, and in smaller brackets, you can literally just turtle until HoJ/repent are up, go for a kill, and if you fail, put on a shield and turtle again. Your damage almost entirely ignores armor. Not to mention half of pallies (and seemingly more ret pallies) have a blood elf racial to add into the hoj/repent rapefest. Because all your abilities are chainable for immense burst, you can swap very easily, and pets have no chance of survival. Your only downfall is that you have no snare, but you run at 115% speed, your enemies run at 100%, and you have freedom, so this isn't an incredible issue. You have ret aura that ticks for a million, as well as eye for an eye, so any sort of melee v melee battle is automatically in your favor.

I think that covers most of it?


exactly.
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#45 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:33 PM

From my perspective they simply have too much utility. Replenishment, lots of damage, blessing of freedom, BOP, Bubble, wings, dispels, they can heal if needed, maybe it's because a mage but I don't really think they need all of it.


but offensive utility is HORRIBLE. when is the last time you saw a good double healer 2v2 team. never. If you can't score a kill you will lose the game. you need to have offensive power to kill.
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#46 Fierss

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:34 PM

I forgot Vindication. Damn it.
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#47 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:40 PM

^ nailed it.

The dps over a fight isn't all that OP, but since it comes in big fucknig chuncks str8 into your face every 7 sec then it starts getting dumb


it really doesnt fucking matter if i can take off 99% of a persons hp every 8 seconds if it can be healed back up again its worthless. and btw against a team whos dps has a mass array of short cooldown def abilities as well as having 24k+hp all the healer has to do is heal your measly amount of out going damage and you are completely safe from ever losing. ive fought dk teams 2v1 vs the dk with wings up and he can just tank my damage for a minute plus solo. but hey maybe if the healer has to take an emergency shit in the middle of the game we """MIGHT""" have a shot at winning.

all you have to do is stay topped off. not exactly hard. when fighting my shaman when im in the best pve gear in the game and pop everything i have i can never kill him till he is oom.
on my 3200 attack power 22% crit dk(lol) I can flawless him almost all the time. why is this? i have good damage and ZOMG offensive utility such as interupts. I imagine if i had a rogue or warrior who have ms plus interupts it would be just as easy even though their damage is lower then a dk ms counters that loss.
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#48 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:44 PM

Second HoJ = Certain death.


ret is op because they can rape the weakest class in the game. the only balance is lolret.
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#49 Ellebim

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:45 PM

it really doesnt fucking matter if i can take off 99% of a persons hp every 8 seconds


lol
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#50 Windwalk

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:47 PM

it really doesnt fucking matter if i can take off 99% of a persons hp every 8 seconds if it can be healed back up again its worthless.

Not really considering ret never goes oom in arenas and provides replenishment to their healer meaning the healer will never go oom either.
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When I talk to or see successful gamers they come off as intelligent people who are able to develop the ever important “game sense” with relative ease. Aside from muscle memory and the mechanics of playing a video game they seem to just understand what needs to be done to compete and outthink their opponents.


#51 Iddqd

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:49 PM

lol

whats funny is that he wasnt exaggerating
lOl
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#52 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:58 PM

Your damage is unavoidable (instant, you don't oom, etc). You have something like 70%? crit with judgments. You're almost impossible to peel, hard to kill, proc heals as a dps class, and make CCing anyone on your team exceedingly difficult. You bring replenishment for your teamates, and in smaller brackets, you can literally just turtle until HoJ/repent are up, go for a kill, and if you fail, put on a shield and turtle again. Your damage almost entirely ignores armor. Not to mention half of pallies (and seemingly more ret pallies) have a blood elf racial to add into the hoj/repent rapefest. Because all your abilities are chainable for immense burst, you can swap very easily, and pets have no chance of survival. Your only downfall is that you have no snare, but you run at 115% speed, your enemies run at 100%, and you have freedom, so this isn't an incredible issue. You have ret aura that ticks for a million, as well as eye for an eye, so any sort of melee v melee battle is automatically in your favor.

I think that covers most of it?

I played ret in s3/s4. I didn't get glad with it, but I did miss it in both seasons by about 50-75 rating. The spec is sooooo much better than it used to be, and didn't need most of what it got.

edit: Vindication.


please I dont even have a 70% chance to crit with judgement in pve gear with pve buffs and pve debuffs.

with resil my base crit is 15% while in pvp gear. I don't take eye for an eye. i tried it but people don't focus me often mostly just try to rape my shaman.

wtf are you talking about impossible to kite. a single fucking snare on us you can simply walk away.

yea and I have also never seen a rogue sap me then almost kill my shaman before sap is half way done. or seen a druid pounce>main my shaman of witch I can not help him and get gibed. or seen a dk LOL rape him with uber damage while being locked down solo. I have never seen a warlock load both of us with dots then spam fear on my healer only for him to die before beingable to cast a single instant cast spell(starting at full hp even). i have never seen a hunter Stun lock and lock and load my shaman to death from 100% to 0 within a short time frame. I have never seen a warrior intercept rape my shaman in seconds. I have never seen a mage Shatter > deep freeze my shaman solo into death.

wait but i have seen those things.
so wait ret is op because the one and only offensive utility they have is damage. but everyone has that. classes with mortal strike effectively multiplies their damage output by 100%. if you see a ret paladin have 400k damage in a game then a warrior have 200k. they are almost equal except for the fact the warrior can pummel making it far easier to get a kill. yet that never happens having that massive of a damage gap. usually I am only slightly higher then other dps. I also use consecration alot to add as much damage as I possibly can and it still is not good enough>

and before you start with the LOL l2p bullshit. ret is not skillfull in the way we deal damage. we got 3 main spells you use on CD to do damage THAT IS IT. there is nothing you can possilbly do wrong in the dps section. perhaps failing to dispel something. or bubble late. or pop wings at a bad time. or fuck up repent or hoj. the one thing a ret can not ever do wrong is fail to do damage.

If ret was like a BC warlock and all he had was shity ass sustained damage except with no cc there is absolutely no preasure at all. that type of damage is easy as hell to heal through and with the severe lack of cc you or any of your team as it a zero risk of death. without some kind of burst(LIKE EVERYSINGLE OTHER DPS CLASS IS CAPABLE OF DELIVERING) we can not score a KILL EVER.
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#53 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:03 PM

Not really considering ret never goes oom in arenas and provides replenishment to their healer meaning the healer will never go oom either.


Mana level doesn't really matter if you can get mortal striked into the ground or chain cc'd long enough to kill you. or even a single interupt can be good enough to get a kill. I have seen my shaman die from 100% to 0 within the duration of a blanket silence
from a mage not even a real counterspell.

and yes replenishment really does wonders when your healer has a 14k mana pool rofl. maybe for holy paladins with 30k mana in pve replenishment is the shit. but it is FAR from infinate mana in arena.

by your logic with infinite mana I should beable to SOLO any bracket because I never go OOM and can heal myself thus I can never die and will always win because of that.
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#54 Klei

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:04 PM

please I dont even have a 70% chance to crit with judgement in pve gear with pve buffs and pve debuffs.

with resil my base crit is 15% while in pvp gear. I don't take eye for an eye. i tried it but people don't focus me often mostly just try to rape my shaman.

wtf are you talking about impossible to kite. a single fucking snare on us you can simply walk away.

yea and I have also never seen a rogue sap me then almost kill my shaman before sap is half way done. or seen a druid pounce>main my shaman of witch I can not help him and get gibed. or seen a dk LOL rape him with uber damage while being locked down solo. I have never seen a warlock load both of us with dots then spam fear on my healer only for him to die before beingable to cast a single instant cast spell(starting at full hp even). i have never seen a hunter Stun lock and lock and load my shaman to death from 100% to 0 within a short time frame. I have never seen a warrior intercept rape my shaman in seconds. I have never seen a mage Shatter > deep freeze my shaman solo into death.

wait but i have seen those things.
so wait ret is op because the one and only offensive utility they have is damage. but everyone has that. classes with mortal strike effectively multiplies their damage output by 100%. if you see a ret paladin have 400k damage in a game then a warrior have 200k. they are almost equal except for the fact the warrior can pummel making it far easier to get a kill. yet that never happens having that massive of a damage gap. usually I am only slightly higher then other dps. I also use consecration alot to add as much damage as I possibly can and it still is not good enough>

and before you start with the LOL l2p bullshit. ret is not skillfull in the way we deal damage. we got 3 main spells you use on CD to do damage THAT IS IT. there is nothing you can possilbly do wrong in the dps section. perhaps failing to dispel something. or bubble late. or pop wings at a bad time. or fuck up repent or hoj. the one thing a ret can not ever do wrong is fail to do damage.

If ret was like a BC warlock and all he had was shity ass sustained damage except with no cc there is absolutely no preasure at all. that type of damage is easy as hell to heal through and with the severe lack of cc you or any of your team as it a zero risk of death. without some kind of burst(LIKE EVERYSINGLE OTHER DPS CLASS IS CAPABLE OF DELIVERING) we can not score a KILL EVER.


People like you making it over 2400s is what makes rets OP.
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#55 Krimsta

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:11 PM

Repeating myself for emphasis, and famousness:

Why are ret's op?

Take a resto Shaman. Take a Ret Pally. That Ret Pallies utility has covered all of the Shaman's weaknesses. Should 1 class do that? Nope. It's why Holy Pallies are currently op; their utility (BoF, Replenishment, CC chaining) makes DK's much more dangerous than they actually are... Shaman/DK, albeit strong, isn't as strong as Pally/DK will ever be, likewise Ret/Sham will be much stronger than Pally/Ret would be.


It's not their damage - ret damage is perfectly healable, hell you can tank ret pallies with water shield between the HoJs and Repents. It's the utility they have; the weaknesses they cover. In my example: a Resto Shaman and Ret Pally, what is the weaknesses that are left?
- cleanse for all 4 schools
- JoJ so shaman can walk away with Tuskarr's Vitality, without GW
- Freedom vs Stuns on the shaman
- Art of War/Plate/Divine Storm healing for drinking breaks
- Replenishment/BoW against teams with no dispell; hard to oom
- Earth Shield covered by Pallies magical buffs; AoW, SS etc

I really cannot think of a weakness that a ret pally/resto shaman would occur... Hero classes, perhaps?
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#56 ogreshot

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:16 PM

please I dont even have a 70% chance
wait but i have seen those things.
so wait ret is op because the one and only offensive utility they have is damage. but everyone has that. classes with mortal strike effectively multiplies their damage output by 100%. if you see a ret paladin have 400k damage in a game then a warrior have 200k. they are almost equal except for the fact the warrior can pummel making it far easier to get a kill. yet that never happens having that massive of a damage gap. usually I am only slightly higher then other dps. I also use consecration alot to add as much damage as I possibly can and it still is not good enough>

and before you start with the LOL l2p bullshit. ret is not skillfull in the way we deal damage. we got 3 main spells you use on CD to do damage THAT IS IT. there is nothing you can possilbly do wrong in the dps section. perhaps failing to dispel something. or bubble late. or pop wings at a bad time. or fuck up repent or hoj. the one thing a ret can not ever do wrong is fail to do damage.

If ret was like a BC warlock and all he had was shity ass sustained damage except with no cc there is absolutely no preasure at all. that type of damage is easy as hell to heal through and with the severe lack of cc you or any of your team as it a zero risk of death. without some kind of burst(LIKE EVERYSINGLE OTHER DPS CLASS IS CAPABLE OF DELIVERING) we can not score a KILL EVER.


most of you ret people forget that burst is WAY better than sustained dmg.
i have goot uility as a rogue, yeah, but i wont be able to kill any healer or >mail dps within a 20 second cc chain. all you have to do is: repent healer -> hammer me -> shitstorm my face and hope that i die -> wait one minute -> do it again. ret paladin + shaman is retarded just like blind was in s4 (1.30 cd). repent + hex cd <<< trinket. if you pair the cc you offer together with the shamans hex with your ability to kill me every 8 second well yeah...lots of opportunities. and dont forget that you can dispel every magical cc on your shaman, have freedom, have bubble, have bop, massive dispel protection, replenishment.
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ohh a dancer!


#57 Missekatten

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:19 PM

I honestly DO not understand how ret IS op.


Why do you think holy-play comp is so strong as it is?
(ret/shaman/priest)
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The sentence below is false.
The sentence above is true.

#58 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:20 PM

People like you making it over 2400s is what makes rets OP.



Your right sorry. Did not realize that ret should be low sustained damage with zero spike damage no snares bad cc or interupts. and still be successful in arenas. im sorry but 2% arena rep is not op.

also DK's, Hunter's, warlock's, and feral druids can all do more burst then ret is capable of at the same time having far better cc. oh yea and they are way better at peeling for their team also.

so please tell me where you think ret would be "balanced" cause from what I hear all you want is forthem to have no offensive power at all in combination with low sustained predictable damage.
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#59 mayainverse

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:25 PM

Why do you think holy-play comp is so strong as it is?
(ret/shaman/priest)


I'm so sure it has nothing to do with a priest mana burning people. I'm sure 100% of the strengths of that set up is only the raw power a ret has to offer. the priest and shaman are just there to sit and watch while the ret obliterates people into dust.

having a secondary defensive dispel is more important then damage for a comp like that.


I have spent an insane amount of time trying to kill holy paladins before and not even force them to use anything other then instant cast heals. pretty sure it would be even easier to keep someone else up. the only thing that dies easy to me are rogues with no cds and who are notgetting any heals or support. but that happens to every single rogue right now while being attacked by any dps whatsoever.
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#60 Pitiless

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:26 PM

Best anti-melee buff in the game
Best anti-snare buff in the game
Only spec in the game able to remove stuns come 3.1
Cleanse
Sacrifice
Bubble
Heals
Replenishment - making it very difficult for your healer(s) to go OOM.
Plate
Buffs (kings, might, wisdom)
Damage that largely ignores armor

Oh yeah, and enough burst to potentially kill someone in one HoJ. I almost forgot that one.

The argument that you should have more damage because you don't have MS is negated by all the utility that you have.
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