Jump to content

ret damage needs to be toned down


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
239 replies to this topic

#21 Magdain

Magdain
  • Premium
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 2,643
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:57 AM

So much exaggeration. Let me get this straight: you seem to be implying that our kitability is a non-issue because we can kill anyone we want, whenever we want, in a matter of seconds, even if we have a mage spamming frostbolt on us with wound poison up.

Right.


A mage spamming bolts with a rogue on you will lock down any target. Except most other classes that a mage/rogue can lock down can't equip a shield and break stuns on themselves without using a trinket.

And yes, ret being able to be kited is a complete non-issue because your dps on any class is virtually the same because 60% of your damage ignores armor completely.
  • 0

#22 Yes

Yes
  • Administrators
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Dragonmaw
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 2,216
  • Talents: Balance
  • LocationNew York

Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:58 AM

Ret damage is still quite below dk or hunter levels in terms of burst and sustained DPS.
  • 0

#23 Rueben SR_US

Rueben SR_US
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 1,456
  • Talents: Combat
  • RBG: 1991

Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:59 AM

And yes, ret being able to be kited is a complete non-issue because your dps on any class is virtually the same because 60% of your damage ignores armor completely.


Now that's just precious
  • 0

#24 Vitrie

Vitrie
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Kazzak
  • Misery
  • Posts: 483
  • Talents: Retribution

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:03 AM

A mage spamming bolts with a rogue on you will lock down any target. Except most other classes that a mage/rogue can lock down can't equip a shield and break stuns on themselves without using a trinket.

And yes, ret being able to be kited is a complete non-issue because your dps on any class is virtually the same because 60% of your damage ignores armor completely.


Tried CSing the said ret paladin at the same time your rogue kidneys him? How about deep freeze with a fingers of frost proc after bof is used?

By your logic, a frost mage is even more deadly, cuz he can blink out of any stun and can blow shit up in 2 seconds with a couple IV shatterfrostbolts.
  • 0
Hi!

#25 Laserz

Laserz
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Korgath
  • Vengeance
  • Posts: 788
  • Talents:

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:04 AM

I can twist any class to look like the epitome of imbalance by really just naming off their abilities and applying hyperbole to every situation
  • 0

#26 Magdain

Magdain
  • Premium
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 2,643
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:04 AM

Tried CSing the said ret paladin at the same time your rogue kidneys him? How about deep freeze with a fingers of frost proc after bof is used?

By your logic, a frost mage is even more deadly, cuz he can blink out of any stun and can blow shit up in 2 seconds with a couple IV shatterfrostbolts.


So you have to use all of your offensive CC tools on the ret, and thus completely fail to kill him because his healer can freecast?
  • 0

#27 Rueben SR_US

Rueben SR_US
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 1,456
  • Talents: Combat
  • RBG: 1991

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:05 AM

Tried CSing the said ret paladin at the same time your rogue kidneys him? How about deep freeze with a fingers of frost proc after bof is used?

By your logic, a frost mage is even more deadly, cuz he can blink out of any stun and can blow shit up in 2 seconds with a couple IV shatterfrostbolts.


No dude, you just don't get it. We have no weaknesses, at all, and blood crits for 9k every time. Vindication is up on the entire enemy team throughout the whole match therefore facilitating these 2 second kills on anyone we want, whenever we want, irregardless of what's going on.
  • 0

#28 Laserz

Laserz
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Korgath
  • Vengeance
  • Posts: 788
  • Talents:

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:09 AM

So you have to use all of your offensive CC tools on the ret, and thus completely fail to kill him because his healer can freecast?


Deep Freeze and Counterspell == All of your offensive CC tools.


Wow you're right bro ret paladins are RIDIC
  • 0

#29 Magdain

Magdain
  • Premium
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 2,643
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:13 AM

No dude, you just don't get it. We have no weaknesses, at all, and blood crits for 9k every time. Vindication is up on the entire enemy team throughout the whole match therefore facilitating these 2 second kills on anyone we want, whenever we want, irregardless of what's going on.


If you can't keep up a debuff that has a 100% proc rate on every single offensive ability you have, I don't know what to say. And no, it's closer to ~6k. You're the one using hyperbole to make fun of my argument instead of respond to it.

You still haven't made an argument. You've only mentioned that mage/rogue can lock you down well.. Guess what, mage/rogue can lock just about every class down, and a lot more than they can a ret paladin.
  • 0

#30 Smoonman

Smoonman
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-The Forgotten Coast
  • Whirlwind
  • Posts: 34
  • Talents:

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:20 AM

Once you see a double healer mage in the top ladder of the TR, holla back please.
  • 0

#31 Rueben SR_US

Rueben SR_US
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 1,456
  • Talents: Combat
  • RBG: 1991

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:20 AM

If you can't keep up a debuff that has a 100% proc rate on every single offensive ability you have, I don't know what to say. And no, it's closer to ~6k. You're the one using hyperbole to make fun of my argument instead of respond to it.

You still haven't made an argument. You've only mentioned that mage/rogue can lock you down well.. Guess what, mage/rogue can lock just about every class down, and a lot more than they can a ret paladin.


Argument? I have something to prove? Last I checked I was getting buffed.

This is not a discussion. Many people have already pointed out the weaknesses of retribution, even in this very thread, and have had their words twisted and tossed aside by embittered players such as yourself.

I mean from a logical standpoint, your last argument was just utterly ridiculous.

And yes, ret being able to be kited is a complete non-issue because your dps on any class is virtually the same because 60% of your damage ignores armor completely.


Those points aren't even connected, really. You really want to have a discussion, well what am I supposed to say an argument like that? If I were to embrace logic, I'd give you a counter example. Mage's do 100% magical damage, so they should have terrible mobility too. Heh.
  • 0

#32 Guest_Alphatier_*

Guest_Alphatier_*

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:35 AM

Those points aren't even connected, really. You really want to have a discussion, well what am I supposed to say an argument like that? If I were to embrace logic, I'd give you a counter example. Mage's do 100% magical damage, so they should have terrible mobility too. Heh.


Mages do next to no damage when you focus them, good example.

+his points does connect because it really doesn't matter who you go on. A DK somehow manages to peel you ? (let's say HoF got dispelled).. just switch to him and take away half his life in 2 globals because your melee damage is more magic than melee.

If a mage and a rogue are on you, there is only one weakness which I already mentioned, your survivability. Nothing stops you from going onto the rogue and almost two-shotting him.

Someone saying the BURST of rets is below DK's and hunter's burst damage is quite retarded. DKs and hunters do have better sustained damage (especially DKs, hunters actually just have a more steady flow on damage but not better sustained) but their potential burst is quite a bit lower.

I advise you to just watch that paladin's stream http://de.xfire.com/live_video/euneek/ which is the double healer team on the PTR, and you will see people loling at the ret's burst every game. Because it really is ridiculous.

On top of that ridiculous burst they kill dk and warlock pets in a very few seconds, 13k damage in two globals without white damage is really fun.
  • 0

#33 Kathor

Kathor
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Eonar
  • Misery
  • Posts: 211
  • Talents:

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:40 AM

Prove me wrong but from what I notice ret is the only dps that without crazy procs and wings you dont have to peel if hes on your healer.

Death knights just ignore me when I sit on their healer, sure I can get a gib in a hoj when something is low or when I use repentance to interrupt and wait for my cooldown if the opponents are blind, have their trinket down and dont bother to interrupt my "master plan" with 1 cc...

With the patch coming it will be a non issue but ret now cant ever go against a holy paladin, smart paladin will never cast when u have hof up, run holy shock jump around with grace, infusion of light etc.

Druids cast cyclone straight in my face, a good druid/dk just either gets a cyclone when my priest is low and then spam cyclones on me till the dk gets him down (fast lol).

I will never ever ever say that rets dmg is too small, I outdmg the deathknights EVERY game (possibly priest shields > pala shields, dunno) but really good teams manage to pull a win anyway... why? Cause either me or my priest or both are snared, dk has silence, interrupt, good dk can play with grip saving games not to mention same burst as rets and better survivability!

Im gonna enjoy exorcism for 1 reason, its ranged... We are severly missing semi ranged abilities... Judgement being only 10 yard. On the other hand giving us an extra dmg ability - meaning we have 4 dps abilities now... I could use some spare globals, not even our great stun/interrupt all in one is off global.

"Why didnt u bubble? Sry global"

"Why didnt u cleanse my polymorph? Was on global"

"Wyvern? Global"

etc

Saying that I really think it would be smarter to revert the exorcism change and making kiteability our weakness and instead buffing the dmg by reverting the divine storm change (holy->physical) that messed up its healing from start...

We do get survivability buffs which I also think was our weakness, by salv glyph and sacred shield scaling (lol now they realised its bugged?) and imp. ss talent.

In the end im totally fine with dmg nerfs if they are compensated in offensive utility (and not another transfer x dmg to paladin type of skill) I ALWAYS was.
  • 0

#34 Rueben SR_US

Rueben SR_US
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 1,456
  • Talents: Combat
  • RBG: 1991

Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:43 AM

Mages do next to no damage when you focus them, good example.

+his points does connect because it really doesn't matter who you go on. A DK somehow manages to peel you ? (let's say HoF got dispelled).. just switch to him and take away half his life in 2 globals because your melee damage is more magic than melee.

If a mage and a rogue are on you, there is only one weakness which I already mentioned, your survivability. Nothing stops you from going onto the rogue and almost two-shotting him.

Someone saying the BURST of rets is below DK's and hunter's burst damage is quite retarded. DKs and hunters do have better sustained damage (especially DKs, hunters actually just have a more steady flow on damage but not better sustained) but their potential burst is quite a bit lower.

I advise you to just watch that paladin's stream http://de.xfire.com/live_video/euneek/ which is the double healer team on the PTR, and you will see people loling at the ret's burst every game. Because it really is ridiculous.

On top of that ridiculous burst they kill dk and warlock pets in a very few seconds, 13k damage in two globals without white damage is really fun.


Well for one he's wrong. 40% of our pvp damage is magic with alot of joblood crits. 60% is just flat out wrong. Want some parses? Well, why bother, you'd just tell me I'm lying or doing it wrong.

For two I take it you don't understand the true study of logic. The "heh" at the end of my counterexample was a hint. His argument is illogical. So is yours. Attempting to refute either of them would be a farce.

For three I expect that team to be in the top 10 on the TR, right? Right?

Your just exaggerating so much it's impossible to level with you at all. In this thread you have me killing anyone I want, whenever I want in seconds. You have me taking Dk's to 50% in a global when they death grip me. (You sure you have that one right...pretty sure it's the other way around chief) You have me instagibbing a lock pet when I look at it the wrong way.

Etc. Etc.
  • 0

#35 Guest_Alphatier_*

Guest_Alphatier_*

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:02 AM

etc etc.
for 1) give me some parses

for 2) ye, just saying something is illogical and not stating why is gonna get you far in every discussion, yep

for 3) http://www.wowarmory...select=holyplay
he was #7 last week, if you look at team games personal and team rating you will see armory is fucked somehow

I am not exaggerating, that's the problem, I even tell my pala pal to not heal my pet anymore cause it's just pointless
  • 0

#36 Rueben SR_US

Rueben SR_US
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 1,456
  • Talents: Combat
  • RBG: 1991

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:07 AM

etc etc.
for 1) give me some parses

for 2) ye, just saying something is illogical and not stating why is gonna get you far in every discussion, yep

for 3) http://www.wowarmory...select=holyplay
he was #7 last week, if you look at team games personal and team rating you will see armory is fucked somehow

I am not exaggerating, that's the problem, I even tell my pala pal to not heal my pet anymore cause it's just pointless


1) no

2) It's illogical because the amount of magical damage I can do has nothing to do with my kitability. N-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Regardless, everything your saying implies I have 2 healers backing me up. A random switch to a dk in 3s just because he pulled me while my dps partner is on the kill target is a fucking stupid idea, period.

3) When I see them on the ladder, I'll believe it. And #7? That makes ret ridiculously OP? They should be #1 by the way you're talking.

Yes please stop healing your pet, stop trying to dispell freedom, etc. Go for it dude. It's hopeless, just surrender :)

Alright I'll let you get the last word on this one. I forget why I took your bait in the first place. I've had plenty of experience "arguing" with you during the beta days. Blizzard will sort things out. Looks like I'm getting buffed, substantially.
  • 0

#37 Rudeface

Rudeface
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Ravencrest
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 529
  • Talents: Arcane

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:12 AM

Why do you insist on comparing yourself to DK's? Deathknights are retardedly overpowered at the moment, and retri burst is an issue all of its own.

The comparison to a mage is a very good one. Mages can drop alot of damage with a deepfreeze shatter, but it takes some "setup" to do - pet, icy veins, a frostbolt and 3 lances. Those can all be interrupted, for instance in mirror RMP mages will always CS frostschool to interrupt shattercombos since its detrimental.

Thing is, right now retris among others can drop shattercombo-ish damage every 30 seconds. All you need versus the _normal_ classes is a HoJ they can't trinket out of, and they should be dead - especially if you have assist dps. There is very little you can do to stop it in a team setting, as opposed to shatter combos.

In addition, mages are alot more squishy then retri - if only for the armor difference which DOES matter. I doubt any of you are eating 4-5k white crits from deathknights in addition to icy touches and runestrikes, although you probably think their damage is high even so.

Retri does have its issues, such as a lack of slow and pummel - but you can't deny that the burst is insane. Retri might not be performing so well right now - JUST because they don't have amazing synergy with any of the other OP classes. If rogues/warriors were better you'd have said slow and pummel/mortal strike for some nasty cheeze.
  • 0

DKs make me lol. It's like a hobo winning the lotto, no one knew of him before he got rich and no one likes them.


#38 Bailou

Bailou
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Ravencrest
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 1,242
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:21 AM

if you ever 2v2'd and met a shaman/ret or priest/ret you know how retarded they can be and how much room for failure they have and can recover anyway because you can not even as a DK with cooldowns up follow something around a corner if the ret is hitting you from behind
  • 0

#39 Vitrie

Vitrie
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Kazzak
  • Misery
  • Posts: 483
  • Talents: Retribution

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:39 AM

Look, no one denies ret damage is high - but you can't just come in here crying ZOMG RET IS OP NERF RET DMG, because if ret damage was toned down even slightly, the spec would be 100% U S E L E S S .

I would be the first to say, YES LETS DO THIS if someone suggested to trade away some of ret paladin burst for ANY - honestly, ANY kind of offensive utility - but from the look of things, it's not happening, so the said damage is all we have to compete. Yeah, I get kills by pressing hoj and facerolling 3 damage buttons - not because I "like" it, but because it's the ONLY way I can ever get a kill. And don't tell me stuff dies every time ret hojs something, because that's not true and we all know that.
  • 0
Hi!

#40 Laserz

Laserz
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Korgath
  • Vengeance
  • Posts: 788
  • Talents:

Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:43 AM

If you're getting two shotted by a ret then stop losing your healer and put more than 400 resil on. Honestly the only pressure hey put on is damage, stop running away to drink when they are about to judge. Don't stand next to them and get HoJ'd/rep.

IDK, I would much rather have to heal through ret damage right now then have to deal with them having reduced burst and an ms/slow/pummel.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<