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[2v2] Hunger for blood & Arena


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#1 Zakdog

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:17 AM

Hello... Some quick info first.

Some days ago i had given up hope of getting gladiator this season, because rogues aren't really shining atm, however that was before i tried some casual games with a resto shaman to see the result...
We went from rank 100+ at 2280 rating to rank3 at 2569 rating in less then 3 days with a nice 52 - 14 score... which also makes us the wolrds highest rated shaman / rogue team (not nessassary the best) http://www.sk-gaming...ogue/shaman////

I made a topic regarding HfB on the rogue forum in the start of S5 to get some feedbacks, but the respond for dropping prep wasn't really "supporting".
---> http://forums.wow-eu...&sid=1&pageNo=3

The reason i'm making this thread, is because as we rapidly increased our rating, so did the amonth of whispers i got increase, and it would be easier to answer questions here, then to each induvidual person.
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Ok.

The spec i use is 51-13-7, ( it isn't the same build as the pve build ) >>. http://www.wowhead.c...sirshzVo0ghdZxb <<

The glyphs are SnD, Eviscerate and Vigor.

Some points can be swapped around like find weakness instead of imp kidny shot, however i personally find what i'm using the best :)

The main point of going 51-13-7, is to revive the old mutilate playstyle. Mutilate rogues in TBC was because of their lack of mobility, extreamly deadly if they were allowed to catch people, and maintain their poisons.

HfB 15% more damage and cut to the chase to maintain SnD, makes this very possible.

Ofc there are some disadvantages going from 41-5-25 to 51-13-7, which cant be denied.
- Stealth sucks, so another rogue will allways find you.
- No prep for a new set of CDs
- No dirty tricks or dirty deeds, means less energy when opening, and only a minor amonth of saps.

With healers i have tried playing with resto druids, hybrid paladins and resto shamans, and the spec works very fine with those 3, and i would expect it to work just as good with a priest.
-With the paladin i got 2200 rating and flawless as server first, however he quitted me for a DK :S
-With a resto druid i managed to just get 2350, which we lost quite fast because of death knight and warlock teams, which are nearly impossible counters if played well... however a resto druid pretty much counters all the dual dps teams.
-My own experience says that Shamans are the strongest healer for this build. STR and WF totem really adds quite some damage, and shock + hex grants great CC, and finally heroism for fun.

I'm not an expert on shamans, but this is my teammate, i guess his spec is pretty common. http://eu.wowarmory....arg&n=Sovereign

Thats pretty much it, i hope it helps some fellow rogues to give it another shot for gladiator...

------
A few Tactics

Hunter + X-healer:
Destroy the healer, priests and shamans aren't so complicated, and can mainly be rushed with right CD use.
With paladins make sure to get a good start, and combine heroism or ohter offensive CDs ... We wont bring down a pally without any CDs to stick on him with a hunter supporting.
A few tips... wait for the hunter to renew his trap, then disarm it and go... during the fight warn your healer about untriggered traps, he / she cant she them before it is to late.

Rogue + X-healer (not priest)
A perfect start would be for their rogue to jump your healer, however than wont happen when the rogue knows he is in a massive stealth advantage... instead open on his healer, or just find a good position where the rogue can open on you.
Coordinate survival CDs to stay alive. We can win 2 ways... outlasting, since when their rogue is out of CDs we are at a massive advantage, or 5 point expose armor + 5 point kidny with full energy and HfB running... he wont survive it :)

Rogue + Priest.
Get to the priest... keep the pressure on their side. If not one of you will get chain CCed and the ohter would die.

Warrior + X-healer
Free win... zerg warriors XD

Warlock + X-healer
Stick on the warlock, and maintain tremor totem. Set up burst to try to bring the warlock down, but as long as you play it safe, you will win.
We ourself got a 3-0 score against the top-10 warlock / pally... and we even took them in blades edge. :)

Rogue + X-dps
/Pray and hope they make a mistake... if the rogues teammate is killable go for him... if it is like a mage / rogue, our best chance is to attempt to force trinket on the rogue with a blind, and then vanish cheap shot and kidny, with cloak to prevent sheeps & deepfreeze.

DK / Pally
Is often very different... Sometimes it is possible to stick on the DK, and kill him during a CC chain, or simply oom the paladin. Ohter times the paladin DK doesn't seam to ever drop, and trying to build kills on the paladin is then the only option.

If the DK goes tunnel vision mode on your shaman, the best chance is to take care of the paladin... it will force the DK to return.
Going for the paladin also means having some CDs ready, makes it alot easier to stick on him.

If you got any questions feel free to post them, and i will try to answer them.
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#2 Panzerkampf

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:36 AM

do you think combat will replace this specc in 3.1?

pros:
more dmg, more avoidance, more cds, more survivability.

cons:
less burst, shitty poisons
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#3 Zooj

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:06 AM

Met you 2 last night as priest rogue, think we went 1-2 vs you, your damage vs my priest were so sick, he died like instnat, 1 dodge on gouge or something and he was dead :P

nice to see a new possible muti spec..
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#4 Candis

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:13 AM

Buffs to HfB in 3.1 have me thinking it's the way I'm going to go for arenas.

More damage, no stacks, 15 energy and 1 minute duration.. I try to keep rupture up at all times so it shouldn't be too tough to keep up.

Edit: does anyone else feel like we've been here before? having to use pve specs/talents to do enough damage in arena. Sounds a lot like rogues in S1 and early S2 to me.
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#5 Rudeface

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 12:22 PM

No preparation is so insanely fail for arenas, exception might be 2's with a healer - but for everything else its a nogo. And i think combat would be better then, glyphed killing spree etc.
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DKs make me lol. It's like a hobo winning the lotto, no one knew of him before he got rich and no one likes them.


#6 zEck

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:53 PM

So you don't sap anything, you probably can't blind anything with its fail melee range when untalented and everything but your actual dps moves cost loads of energy. Also, crawling at -30% speed in stealth isn't fun.

Playing without little but crucial CC we can do sounds quite fail, amazing you made it work. Maybe it's time to move on, forget about all CC and cooldowns that let you make smart switches to land a kill and go for pure damage spec making us warriors without intercept?
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#7 Nekos

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:58 PM

Yep the op is talking about 2s. Main problem in 2s is the low damage output rogues generate compared to other classes.

Must be annoying to refresh HfB every 25 sec ( to not fail the stack) for 30 energy , no ?
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#8 Rudeface

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:13 PM

Yep the op is talking about 2s. Main problem in 2s is the low damage output rogues generate compared to other classes.

Must be annoying to refresh HfB every 25 sec ( to not fail the stack) for 30 energy , no ?


HFB costs 15 energy and lasts 1min in 3.1, also has a glyph that makes the total damage increase 18%
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DKs make me lol. It's like a hobo winning the lotto, no one knew of him before he got rich and no one likes them.


#9 Zakdog

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:33 PM

Met you 2 last night as priest rogue, think we went 1-2 vs you, your damage vs my priest were so sick, he died like instnat, 1 dodge on gouge or something and he was dead :P


The sap on me the first game really was devastating aswell :P
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#10 Zakdog

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:33 PM

do you think combat will replace this specc in 3.1?

Tbh no... i think an upgraded version like 51-18-2 with lightning reflexes and the new ppm on poisons will deal alot more damage.

So you don't sap anything, you probably can't blind anything with its fail melee range when untalented and everything but your actual dps moves cost loads of energy. Also, crawling at -30% speed in stealth isn't fun.

I dont miss the extra stealth speed, but more the reduced CD on a restealth for does rare 1v1 fights... Also by bringing the fight to their healer it possible to set up a good CC chain started by a focus kick.
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#11 Naamari

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

think i'd cry without prep in arena
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#12 Zakdog

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:38 PM

Must be annoying to refresh HfB every 25 sec ( to not fail the stack) for 30 energy , no ?


Not so much actually. I use the addon classtimer to keep track of it.
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#13 Arsis

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 06:46 PM

Trying this after my server comes up. I love you.
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#14 Ishank

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:47 PM

Tried this HFB stuff after beating the #1 dk pally on bg for like 3 games, and not playing for weeks, i come back trying to get gladiator and lose to kids with downs cuz mutilate nerf is shit and most other classes dont get nerfed at all. Anyways i didnt go 51/13/7 i went 51/5/15 to get reduced time on cloak and blind/vanish, havent really tried it in arena cuz my partner left after losing ~100 pts in 2's to different dk/pallys -_-. Glad to see somebody is trying something new also.
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#15 Magdain

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:51 PM

you gon' get nerfed by gc
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#16 Horrible

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:17 PM

I was thinking about a HfB spec in 3.1, it doesn't seem viable yet though.

I'm getting tired of tanking rating as shaman/rogue though.
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#17 Zcore

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:49 PM

Hi
I played Shaman/Rogue since the beginning of this season.
Until now it seems we run pretty well with this lineup, because wie never fall out of gladiator range.
We always lost vs the good pala/dk, pala/hunter, pala/feral or retri teams.
But there were still teams we can beat because they didnt play the right tactic against us or they werent good enough.
So we get up in rating week for week until 2425.

But since a few days i have the feeling all pala's, dk's an hunter on every single server just make teams together to get gladiator.
Our usual 60% pala/dk fights switched to 90%...and the rest are hunter and ferals.

So with only a few double dps teams and 1or2 mirrors i'm starting to think about your talant build.

Do you really get a dk down or the pala oom by sticking on the dk?
Which daggers do you use? Double sr or the faster ones like wd?

Maybe i will give your build a try, because i dont see any light against these combi if they only have a little bit of arena understanding.

Greetz
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#18 Arsis

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 02:57 PM

With my PVE gear skills, it's a lot easier to zerg down shaman healers in this spec.

Warriors, ferals, and DKs pop defensive cooldowns while I don't have to use evasion to sit on them (unless I get maimed or want to try to dodge a bash).

I get sapped by other rogues in a good spot on purpose, because there is no way that I will ever get the opener again.
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#19 Dynath

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 03:01 PM

So far, I've only played a little as it, and vs few dk teams.
But yeah, they go oom before my paladin does, which is awesome, the pressure you put on a healer with HfB and 24/7 snd is really high, as well as you peel the DK off your healer which saves your team some mana, unless you are unlucky and gets destroyed ofc :P.
Killing their pets works wonders on that part tho.
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#20 Candis

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 03:54 PM

Really curious about this spec as healer/rogue.

But was wondering your reasoning behind choosing Riposte/Endurance over MoD/Dirty Tricks/Elusiveness.

To me spec'ing 51/7/13 would seem more effective with being able to start matches better and having shorter cooldowns on Vanish/Blind/Cloak.
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