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Anyone tried dueling healers on the PTR?


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#41 Whillwinz

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:49 AM

Hopefully DK/Healer wont be a viable setup in 3.1

Lol, nope. There will just be a lot more viable setups to compete with it so it won't be as strong.
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#42 thevidon

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:50 AM

This. And the guy who said the only ms-less class that was viable for 2's = warlock, is wrong. Mage/priest was viable, so was hunter prior to MS and some people even made feral/enhancement work. Of course it was never as easy as it is now, but people still have the option of playing 2dps. And in the case of balanced classes without MS - they HAVE to play 2dps.

Everyone knows feral/dk/retri burst is out of control, even people who play the class and have half a brain will admit to it. Just because blizzard dropped this game out of beta, and you found yourself viable for 2's with a healer - doesn't mean you are entitled to get mortal strike just so it can stay that way.

Stop acting retarded and realize some speccs/classes need a heavy nerf for the sake of the game.


I do not remember any enhancement shaman/healer teams getting glad, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Hunters were only really viable in 2's with a druid. Priest/Mage is a very specific comp, and says nothing about mage viability with a healer in 2's generally.

Let's look at what rogue comps are viable:

Rogue/Shaman
Rogue/Priest
Rogue/Paladin
Rogue/Druid

OH wait. Thats EVERY SINGLE HEALER.

Let's see how it works for hunters:

Hunter/Shaman
Hunter/Priest
Hunter/Paladin
Hunter/Druid

Do you see the trend here? MS creates diverse viability for DPS that have it.
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#43 dif66

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:56 AM

I do not remember any enhancement shaman/healer teams getting glad, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Hunters were only really viable in 2's with a druid. Priest/Mage is a very specific comp, and says nothing about mage viability with a healer in 2's generally.

Let's look at what rogue comps are viable:

Rogue/Shaman
Rogue/Priest
Rogue/Paladin
Rogue/Druid

OH wait. Thats EVERY SINGLE HEALER.

Let's see how it works for hunters:

Hunter/Shaman
Hunter/Priest
Hunter/Paladin
Hunter/Druid

Do you see the trend here? MS creates diverse viability for DPS that have it.


There´s priest ret/dk teams at high rating aswell, same goes for shaman/dk
resto is bad and isn´t very representated with any class.
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#44 Prov

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 04:36 AM

No. There is another option. Adding an MS aura to arenas and removing MS as an ability. They can then retune damage/interrupts as needed.


I based that statement off things as they are now, where the only real change would be damage tuning. Certainly there are other options if they decided to completely rebalance other things.
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I really hope blizzard does something about this. because the Impossibleness of cleave to beat any comp, really, is just an excruciating process that involves immense skill and luck. Buff warriors death knights and pallys, nerf mages and rogues.


#45 Prov

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 04:40 AM

I do not remember any enhancement shaman/healer teams getting glad, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Hunters were only really viable in 2's with a druid. Priest/Mage is a very specific comp, and says nothing about mage viability with a healer in 2's generally.

Let's look at what rogue comps are viable:

Rogue/Shaman
Rogue/Priest
Rogue/Paladin
Rogue/Druid

OH wait. Thats EVERY SINGLE HEALER.

Let's see how it works for hunters:

Hunter/Shaman
Hunter/Priest
Hunter/Paladin
Hunter/Druid

Do you see the trend here? MS creates diverse viability for DPS that have it.


because there aren't dks with every healing class above 2500 right? Only ms classes are viable with every healer?
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I really hope blizzard does something about this. because the Impossibleness of cleave to beat any comp, really, is just an excruciating process that involves immense skill and luck. Buff warriors death knights and pallys, nerf mages and rogues.


#46 Nex

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:03 AM

because there aren't dks with every healing class above 2500 right? Only ms classes are viable with every healer?

Over 2500 there is according to SKgaming:

DK+priest: 1 team
DK+druid: 3 teams
DK+shaman: 6 teams
DK+paladin: 143 teams

Hunter+priest: 13
Hunter+druid: 2
Hunter+shaman: 28
Hunter+paladin: 22

While there are DKs with all healers above 2500 the number of DK+paladin teams is much greater than DK+any other. Of the top 100 DK+healer teams more than 90% are DK+paladin. Hunters have more variation when it comes to the healer they are teamed up with, they have among other things better tools to protect a healer under pressure.
DKs are just not very flexible.


I've said it since tBC, if the game is ever supposed to be balanced there can't be 50% healing debuffs in PVP, it's a too big debuff to balance around. If the goal is to make classes able to kill healers without a healing debuff, as stated by the developers, then killing healers with a 50% debuff will be piss easy.
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#47 Prov

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:11 AM

Over 2500 there is according to SKgaming:

DK+priest: 1 team
DK+druid: 3 teams
DK+shaman: 6 teams
DK+paladin: 143 teams

Hunter+priest: 13
Hunter+druid: 2
Hunter+shaman: 28
Hunter+paladin: 22

While there are DKs with all healers above 2500 the number of DK+paladin teams is much greater than DK+any other. Of the top 100 DK+healer teams more than 90% are DK+paladin. Hunters have more variation when it comes to the healer they are teamed up with, they have among other things better tools to protect a healer under pressure.
DKs are just not very flexible.


I've said it since tBC, if the game is ever supposed to be balanced there can't be 50% healing debuffs in PVP, it's a too big debuff to balance around. If the goal is to make classes able to kill healers without a healing debuff, as stated by the developers, then killing healers with a 50% debuff will be piss easy.


interesting that you chose to omit the statistics of the other ms classes, especially since you cited them initially. Perhaps a more accurate, albeit less meaningful or relevant argument would be that hunters are more versatile with the 4 healers than dks.
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I really hope blizzard does something about this. because the Impossibleness of cleave to beat any comp, really, is just an excruciating process that involves immense skill and luck. Buff warriors death knights and pallys, nerf mages and rogues.


#48 Nex

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:26 AM

interesting that you chose to omit the statistics of the other ms classes, especially since you cited them initially. Perhaps a more accurate, albeit less meaningful or relevant argument would be that hunters are more versatile with the 4 healers than dks.

You got me confused with the guy that made the initial statement, I just added some numbers to the discussion.

While there is 1 DK priest and 3 DK+druid teams above 2500 the numbers pale besides the 140 DK+paladin teams. One, or a handful of exceptions is not enough to state that DK work well with all healers. Which was clearly the message you wanted to get across when you said: "because there aren't dks with every healing class above 2500 right? Only ms classes are viable with every healer?".


I added numbers to show just how scewed the balance between different healers are for DKs compared to another successful DPS class in 2v2.


Edit: While the balance in 2v2 isn't good atm. Would you disagree to this statement:
DKs are more reliant on which healing class they are teamed with than a rogue or hunter.

This was the geist of the post you were commenting at first, although not very well put in the post. I would make no argument as to which of the classes hunter, DK or rogue that is currently the strongest in 2v2, just how well their array of abilities, can be used to work with different healing classes.


MS is a huge part of it, as it opens for more freedom in choice of what target to go for. If a rogue can pin a DK, enhancement shaman or ret paladin down they have to deal twice the damage of the rogue or it's an guaranteed loss in a mana war due to the MS effect alone. MS or a CC chain for a gib is the only way to reliable go for another target than the healer. A class lacking a MS debuff just has less flexibility, you have to be on the healer to add the prospect of a spell interrupt in case the healer tries cast time heals, otherwise you won't win. I should add some caveats here, but i won't be arsed as most people should get the geist of the argument.

As a ret paladin during most of tBC I've seen just how fucking botched MS effects were, they completely destroyed any balance by just having the MS class as well as possible pin the DPS class of the opposing DPS+healer team, hello druid+warr and druid+rogue teams.


If healers are getting as much added survivability as they seem to get judging by the OP it will be back to the horrible balance of tBC instead of the horrible balance of S5. It's not a step forward towards balance it's just a step back to an equally unbalanced system. I for one don't think that vicious cycle can be broken until MS effects are toned down in PVP.
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#49 Hidden

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 04:37 PM

I can't explain those 3 DK/Druid teams at 2500+ by anything but queuedodging all Holy/DK teams. Playing DK/Druid myself I have to say the comp isn't really bad, we've gone to >2400 with positive winning statistics against every setup but DK/Holy which still totally rape us even when they play way worse. This as well as our other biggest weakness (Rogue/DD teams killing my druid in a CS and Rogue/Priest teams easily killing him by tunnelvisioning DPS/dispels on him) are getting adressed in 3.1 so I'd guess DK/Druid will be much better represented in 3.1 than now, at least I'm sure we'll finally get to >2500 without having to depend on not playing against 50% Holy/DK like currently. (In the meantime we've also had many losses against other teams but that was mostly due to testing tons of different specs that could maybe work better against Holy/DK)

In general I'd be for a general MS coupled with other necessary changes caused by that, otherwise classes without MS are either too weak without a MS class (I've been playing an Enhancement Shaman in S4 and I know what I'm talking about) or too strong coupled with a MS class.
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#50 Elraen

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 06:30 PM

Not trying to refute your point, but hunters were viable in 2v2 as well, even before they got MS.


Hunters were viable in 2v2 before they got MS in 2.3 because they played played hunter/priest BEFORE resilience affected mana drains. This was during season 2. Hunter/priest completely roflstomped everyone-Hamchook and his priest, I believe, were the top 2s comp world wide. Very shortly thereafter, people discovered the OPness of druids-then hunter/druid became OP because you just viper/root/travel form/bear humped the other team until they were OOM, then you won. Then draining got nerfed, and hunters finished off at the bottom of S3 and 4 representation. Hunters did well with THE BEST druid healers-if you didn't have THE BEST druid healer, you were boned.
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#51 Elraen

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 06:34 PM

Ghostcrawler is a female community manager. She does nothing but talk to designers. You have her confused with someone else.


You're thinking of Nethaera.
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#52 Fayde

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 06:51 PM

Hunters were viable in 2v2 before they got MS in 2.3 because they played played hunter/priest BEFORE resilience affected mana drains. This was during season 2. Hunter/priest completely roflstomped everyone-Hamchook and his priest, I believe, were the top 2s comp world wide. Very shortly thereafter, people discovered the OPness of druids-then hunter/druid became OP because you just viper/root/travel form/bear humped the other team until they were OOM, then you won. Then draining got nerfed, and hunters finished off at the bottom of S3 and 4 representation. Hunters did well with THE BEST druid healers-if you didn't have THE BEST druid healer, you were boned.


I don't really see your point here. Are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? :/
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#53 acharii

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 07:21 PM

its all bs, some classes need ms effect and some dont, thats the way its always been and thats the way it a should stay. DKs doing twice as much dmg as anyone else pretty much has the same effect as if they did normal dmg and has ms effect. a DK with the dmg they have now and ms effect would be stupid and make them even more overpowered.

also the reason for them playing with paladins like 140 teams which are over 2500 is because they play best with paladins and choose to paly with them instead of the other healing classes becasue its the easiest thing to do. its not that they cant play with any other healing class its that they dont want to
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#54 Desmond

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 07:55 PM

its all bs, some classes need ms effect and some dont, thats the way its always been and thats the way it a should stay. DKs doing twice as much dmg as anyone else pretty much has the same effect as if they did normal dmg and has ms effect. a DK with the dmg they have now and ms effect would be stupid and make them even more overpowered.


What part of "MS Aura + balance out the damage to an appropriate level" did you not understand?

No one is suggesting DK damage + MS would be remotely fair.

Why are you even here?
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#55 Boyl

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 08:01 PM

I spent a long while dueling a holy pally and resto druid, both in full PVP gear on the PTR and it was not a good experience.

First tried fighting the holy pally as as a 20/51/0 frost spec. (he was 51/20/0) and I couldn't ever get him below about 70% life. He never even had to cast a single spell only used instants. Obliterate was only critting for about 3k, and he easily out healed my frost strikes, mainly because he kept cleansing off frost fever so I had to keep reapplying it.

Then I tried a 17/0/54 unholy build. this one did alot better, but I still had a VERY hard time taking him out. In fact the only time I won was when I got a crit chain of 2 SS's and a DC while garg was up. Its crazy how much he was healing for.

Then for the real fun. I tried fighting a resto druid. This was absolutely insane. This time I tried as a 17/0/54 and as a 0/18/53 and I would say I never got this druid below 80% health for more then 1 seconds. He just sat in treeform and tanked me with his hots on. He didnt move, run, cyclone or root me. He didnt need to. Whenever I would get a few SS crits he would swiftmend back to full instantly. His mana not even dropping. It was staggering. I could not kill this druid no matter when I did. He might as well have been invincible.


This is how i have felt as a rogue the whole season.. imo no class without ms should ever be able to take a healer 1on1, unless they oom them...
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#56 acharii

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 08:10 PM

What part of "MS Aura + balance out the damage to an appropriate level" did you not understand?

No one is suggesting DK damage + MS would be remotely fair.

Why are you even here?


im saying that giving everyone ms effect is laughable, even if you say to an appropriate level because there isnt and will never be an appropriate level in which everyone should get it, some have it and some dont for a reason.

and im here because i have as much reason to be as you do
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#57 Desmond

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:06 PM

im saying that giving everyone ms effect is laughable, even if you say to an appropriate level because there isnt and will never be an appropriate level in which everyone should get it, some have it and some dont for a reason.

and im here because i have as much reason to be as you do


i havnt played since the first week of WotLK becasue wow is blocked at uni and i havnt been back so i gave my account to some friends ;p not my fault for the shitty character


Just because you have nothing better to do than troll forums doesn't mean you have as much reason to be here as I do. Congrats on your S3 gladiator. Now leave the serious discussion to the people that do more than just read about the state of the game on world of ming.

If you give every class the ability to put out 2000 damage every second and healers the ability to heal 2000 hp every second, then the game would be won or lost around CC/interrupt chains. With some tweaking, this would be definitionally "balanced" (depending on the bracket). Letting all healers heal for 4000 hp every second, while dps classes without MS do 4000 damage every second and MS classes do 2000 damage every second, while it seems to be the situation blizzard is aiming for, is much more succeptable to overstacking DPS classes. Hence the imbalances such as "Class X does 10% more damage than class Y" get brought out more because they're shown more in the system.
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#58 thevidon

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:12 PM

MS is a huge part of it, as it opens for more freedom in choice of what target to go for. If a rogue can pin a DK, enhancement shaman or ret paladin down they have to deal twice the damage of the rogue or it's an guaranteed loss in a mana war due to the MS effect alone. MS or a CC chain for a gib is the only way to reliable go for another target than the healer. A class lacking a MS debuff just has less flexibility, you have to be on the healer to add the prospect of a spell interrupt in case the healer tries cast time heals, otherwise you won't win. I should add some caveats here, but i won't be arsed as most people should get the geist of the argument.

As a ret paladin during most of tBC I've seen just how fucking botched MS effects were, they completely destroyed any balance by just having the MS class as well as possible pin the DPS class of the opposing DPS+healer team, hello druid+warr and druid+rogue teams.


If healers are getting as much added survivability as they seem to get judging by the OP it will be back to the horrible balance of tBC instead of the horrible balance of S5. It's not a step forward towards balance it's just a step back to an equally unbalanced system. I for one don't think that vicious cycle can be broken until MS effects are toned down in PVP.


These are great points, and go right to the heart of what I was saying. Having to do 2x the damage of the opposing MS based DPS is just bad for the game. It means that DK damage is going to be so ridiculous that we kill healers pretty much instantly during our interrupt phase, or we will become extremelly limited in viability with a healer in general.

Those numbers don't lie, the reason paladins work so well with DKs is because they can give us such great uptime on our healer target through freedom and cleanse while we go for kills. Playing without freedom as a DK is an exercise in frustration, and it will only get worse if longer uptime is required to get a kill on a healer.

Some people may think im crying wolf, but I played as an enhance shaman in S3 - and I know the ugly destination this road leads to.
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#59 thevidon

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:17 PM

J
If you give every class the ability to put out 2000 damage every second and healers the ability to heal 2000 hp every second, then the game would be won or lost around CC/interrupt chains. With some tweaking, this would be definitionally "balanced" (depending on the bracket). Letting all healers heal for 4000 hp every second, while dps classes without MS do 4000 damage every second and MS classes do 2000 damage every second, while it seems to be the situation blizzard is aiming for, is much more succeptable to overstacking DPS classes. Hence the imbalances such as "Class X does 10% more damage than class Y" get brought out more because they're shown more in the system.


The problem is that the numbers aren't that far apart. At most the non-MS classes are doing 50% more in most cases (making this number up so please correct me with data if I'm too high or low). This means that an MS class who sits on a non-MS class has a huge inherent advantage in the mana game in any given match.
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#60 acharii

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:19 PM

Just because you have nothing better to do than troll forums doesn't mean you have as much reason to be here as I do. Congrats on your S3 gladiator. Now leave the serious discussion to the people that do more than just read about the state of the game on world of ming.


for starters i dont read world of ming secondly your getting way too annoyed about petty things, stress shortens your life and thirdly it doesnt matter how much u ask blizz to give MS aura it wont happen because certain classes are designed to not have it and by not having it they make up for it in other aspects. im not here for a personal argument or to annoy you because i have nothing better to do im just simply voicing my opinion and i understand fully what your opinion is but im just saying im pretty sure that it wont happen.
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